Talk:Neal Cassady

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Contents 1 letter 2 Book category 3 Date Changes 4 Date confusion re: Puerto Vallerta et al 5 Following Review of Other Date Sources 6 Resolution of Date Disagreement 7 Re: Photo removal, Spelling change to "Cassidy" 8 What about more discussion of his personality? 9 Deletion of "Cosmic Charlie" reference

[edit] letter

Shouldn't there be a bit more depth about the Joan Anderson Letter and its influence on Kerouac and his writing of On The Road? It was a large influence on Kerouac's theory of spontaneous prose. IrishGuy 06:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you are right. I'm not too familiar with what Kerouac had to say about spontaneous prose, but having spent a fair amount of time around Neal I know that it was Neal's speaking style that Kerouac imitated in his writing. Neal encouraged Kerouac to loosen up, to just let things flow; this came so naturally to Neal that he could not imagine any other way, whether speaking or writing. Founders4 04:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

What I do know of this, and I am admittedly no expert, is that Kerouac's writing was along the Wolfian lines of The Town and the City until he read the letter. Kerouac wrote his own letters praising Cassady's letter. He even passed it along to many others which is why so much of the letter was lost (all that exists is a fragment). That, in conjunction with Cassady's speech (in person and the various recordings they made) seemed to be the turning point for Kerouac to find his voice as it were. IrishGuy 04:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like you know enough to add more about the Joan Anderson letter. I would encourage you to do so! Founders4 04:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to get some hard references for it and do some work on the article this week. IrishGuy 04:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

How is this project going? I have some information on this and could assist, if you wish. Pitoucat 00:07, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Book category

I added the book Friendly & Flowing Savage to the list of books about Appearances in Literature. IrishGuy moved it to the Neal Cassady bibliography section. I moved it back, since it is not a book by Neal, but about his literary influence. IrishGuy again moved it, this time to the Biography section. It is not a biography, but a literary study of Neal Cassady as an influence on other writers. It does not belong in the Biography or Bibliography sections. I feel that the Appearances in Literature section is more appropriate since the book documents all of these, including some not already listed in that section. Maybe a new section is required, such as Literary Studies? Over to you, IrishGuy. Pitoucat 23:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm not trying to be combatative nor am I making any concerned efforts to alter your edits. I just think that the Appearances in Literature section (at least as it stands now) is books written not specifically about Cassady but where he makes appearances (Kerouac, Ginsburg, Wolfe, et al) whereas the book in question isn't technically literature but instead (at least from what I can gather having not read it myself) is more of a guide to Cassady's many appearances in literature. That's why I feel it might be better suited to the biography section as it is technically more in that vein. But if you disagree, feel free to move it back to the Appearances section. IrishGuy 23:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, let's leave it where it is. However, I feel that anyone obtaining the book and expecting it to be a biography will be sorely disappointed. Pitoucat 00:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, if you really feel that could be a problem (in reference to the book being misconstrued) then by all means, place it back in the Appearances section. You are more familiar with the book than I am. If you feel it should go there, then by all means do so. IrishGuy 00:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added a new section, Literary Studies, in which to place this book, as I honestly don't feel that it properly belongs in any of the previously existing ones. Incidentally, although the original small press publication of 1987 is now hard to locate, the complete text can be found in a collection of essays by Gregory Stephenson on the literature of the Beat Generation, The Daybreak Boys (Southern Illinois University Press, 1990), and is strongly recommended. Pitoucat 10:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date Changes

I noticed you made some date changes, Pitoucat. Unfortunately they are not correct. Don't know what sources you might be using.

The Merry Prankster trip with Ken was definitely in 1964.

I met up with Neal during January, 1968. Neal, Annie and George had just driven down to Puerto Vallarta, and they were staying at a beach house just south of town. We spent a week or so there before heading on to other destinations. Shortly after we returned to the U.S., in early February, 1968, we heard of Neal's death. Founders4 07:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the trip to NYC with Pranksters was in June 1964, but Neal had met Kesey long before that -- in the summer of 1962.

Neal, George Walker, Steven Lambrecht, Gloria Quornstrom and Anne Murphy drove to Mexico in January 1967 (not 1968) and stayed in Puerto Vallarta. Anne flew back to the USA in February, and the others in April, leaving Neal in San Miguel de Allende. Neal returned to USA in May.

He left again for Mexico on January 28, 1969, with an experimental filmmaker from LA, to meet up with Janice Brown in San Miguel. He died on February 4.

This information comes from my research and interviews with George Walker, Anne Murphy, and Kathy Van Leeuwen. I'm confident that the dates of 1962 and 1967 are correct and so I have changed them back. Pitoucat 07:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date confusion re: Puerto Vallerta et al

Hello Pitoucat. I believe you that Neal met Ken before the 1964 trip, though perhaps this should be clarified to avoid confusion as to when the trip to New York actually occurred.

The confusion about the Mexico trip may be the result of multiple trips. What I do know for sure is that Neal, George and Anne (Neal always called her "Annie")were in Puerto Vallerta in January, 1968--that's the only trip I ever made to Mexico. I never saw Steven Lambrecht or Gloria Quornstrom at the beach house in Puerto Vallarta.

Although I had met Neal on several occasions before that (during 1966 and 1967), January, 1968 was the first time I had met Anne and George. Perhaps they were also there during 1967, which might account for some of the confusion; I wouldn't know about that.

When you say "He (Neal) left again for Mexico on January 28, 1969..." this must be an error, because Neal died on February 4, 1968.

I think I'll go ahead and make some changes; see what you think :). I AM entirely sure about the 1968 dates.Founders4 09:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, my "1969" was a slip of the fingers. I meant to write "1968." The facts are that Neal left Los Angeles, alone, on January 28th, 1968, to return to Mexico. This time he traveled by train and was at first refused entry at the border — allegedly because of his disheveled appearance — but succeeded on a second attempt when he joined up with an experimental film maker from UCLA whose crew was allowed in. Neal left the train at Celaya, leaving some luggage there and taking a taxi to San Miguel de Allende where Janice Brown had been waiting for him. Neal did not visit Puerto Vallarta on this, his final trip, but went directly to San Miguel, dying nearby just a few days later.

I do know for a fact that Neal, George Walker, Anne Murphy, and others drove to Puerto Vallarta in January 1967. I have seen the actual postcards that Neal wrote from there to Carolyn. They are postmarked "Puerto Vallarta - 1967". On one of them, dated February 8, 1967, Neal writes that he is spending his 41st (birthday) there. Since Neal was born in 1926, this also confirms the year as 1967. The postcards and other of Neal's letters of the period can be read in "Neal Cassady: Collected Letters, 1944-1967" (Penguin, 2004).

In March 1967 Neal and Anne had a major row, and she flew back to the USA, never to see Neal again. This fact comes from various interviews that Anne has given (a recent one being in "Beat Scene" #42) and in Anne's unpublished memoir of her time with Neal, "Affair With a Viper." Neal writes about Anne's departure in a postcard to Carolyn from Puerto Vallarta, dated March 15, 1967. Anne was in Seattle when she heard about Neal's death in February 1968, and states that she had not seen him since March 1967, when she left him in Puerto Vallarta.

You are right to say that Neal made many trips to Mexico. He was also there in 1966 with Kesey, Babbs, and Walker, staging Acid Tests, and previously in 1950 and 1952 with Kerouac.

As you say, "If you remember the '60's you must not have been there," and I think that might be the problem here. Do you have any diaries or journals you could check for the exact year when you met Neal in Puerto Vallarta? I have some photos of Neal with George Walker and others (some unknown) in Mexico that I could send you if I had an address ...

Your amendment concerning Neal's first meeting with Ken Kesey is fine, by the way. Pitoucat 12:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Now it is my turn to be confused! The blow up you describe with Anne sounds well-documented, yet in my memory of our trip she was definitely there--something I remember well because of the hostility she displayed towards me--and a January, 1967 date doesn't fit the rest of the chronology. I will search my records and see what I can find that either verifies or refutes my memories of the dates. Car registration records may be my best bet.

Meanwhile if you could send me the photos you mentioned, that would be much appreciated; they may yield some clues. I would also like to share more of what happened during our time in Puerto Vallarta, though not in such a public forum. Is there a way we might correspond privately? I can provide both e-mail and physical addresses at that time.Founders4 21:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Fine, let me know your e-mail address and I will send the photos and continue this discussion privately. Pitoucat 23:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Following Review of Other Date Sources

Just reviewed a couple of other sources. As was the case with many of us during this period, Neal was all over the map in 1967-68, which adds to the difficulty of pinning down specific dates. All sources, however, agree that Neal died on February 4, 1968.

The reason I KNOW that I saw Neal in Puerto Vallarta in January, 1968 is because that trip intensified longstanding personality conflicts between me and my longtime girlfriend; after the trip we separated, and we both moved out of our house in February, 1968. We found out about Neal's death while we were packing.

If you read some of the interviews with Carolyn Cassady, she refers to a call she got from Neal shortly before he died, just as he was crossing the border into Mexico, though she doesn't provide an exact date. He voiced his desire to "come home," but she was sure it couldn't be that way.

So we know that Neal entered Mexico shortly before he died. The more I think about it, the more I think your January, 1967 information must reference an earlier trip. Please keep in mind the old adage, "If you remember the '60's you must not have been there." One really does have to put things together using several sources to get the dates right.

Hope the changes I made work for you. Neal made many trips to Mexico, and all we really know is that the trip he made just before he died was his last, so that's what I wrote. This leaves open the likelihood of an earlier trip during 1967.

Neal's mental and physical deterioration during the years after serving his sentence at San Quentin was quite severe, and his non-stop ingestion of methedrine, LSD and an assortment of other drugs didn't help. It was apparent to me the last time I saw him that Neal was in trouble; Carolyn says that he was in deep conflict, and essentially suicidal, during the last five years of his life. Nevertheless, his death still came as a shock; we all expected him to be around forever.Founders4 11:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resolution of Date Disagreement

Thanks, Pitoucat, for sending me the primary source material confirming Neal's trip to Mexico in January, 1967 along with material that corroborates Anne Murphy's presence there during the same period.

I found the source of my error in thinking...a photo that was incribed "1968" instead of "1967." Regarding the contextual memory, I was simply mistaken.

I've changed the dates to reflect the reality. Neal, Anne, George et al stayed in a beachside house just south of Puerto Vallarta during January, 1967--not January, 1968 as I originally wrote.Founders4 07:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Photo removal, Spelling change to "Cassidy"

Please leave photo in this article.

Also, the correct spelling is "Cassady."

[edit] What about more discussion of his personality?

His multiple marriages and bigamy and other fast-paced highjinx may seem like trash talk but it was his behavior that captured the imagination of Kerouac and others and inspired them to incorporate him in their work. Cassady wanted to write and did work on a novel (according to Carolyn Cassady who thought his writing was good). But his personality was such that he acted out his behavior rather than observe in the background as Kerouac did. So Cassady's outlandish behavior is part of the story. KarenAnn 12:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of "Cosmic Charlie" reference

"Cosmic Charlie" was a 60's street character, sometimes referred to as "The Wandering Holy Man." His real name was Charles Altman. The Grateful Dead tune by this name was not inspired by Neal Cassady.Founders4 08:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)