Talk:Nazi human experimentation

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Contents

[edit] Early discussion

I paraphrased the first 2 sections as I was unsure about copyright. Someone else pasted in the rest. I hope it was OK to paste. I don't know if it was copyright. Barbara Shack 07:28, 30 January 2004 hahahaha I have now copyedited, expanded, merged in some material from the Mengele article, and added links to other relevant articles. -- The Anome 14:06, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

You should note the the first head of the german institute for aerospacemedicine was a defendant in that trial. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.133.106.218 (talk • contribs) 01:39, 20 March 2004.

[edit] Results

are there any reports analyzing the overall results of these experiments? was any worthwhile science achieved during this horrible process, ignoring the moral crimes? Vroman 05:24, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In brief, no. The issue was raised some years ago in the New England Journal of Medicine in reference to the ethics of using or publishing the results of Nazi research, particularly the Dachau hypothermia "experiments". Several pertinent points were made:
  • United States Brigadier General Telford Taylor stated "these experiments revealed nothing which civilized medicine can use" (i.e., they have no utility)
  • Arnold Relman, editor of the New England Journal of Medicine pointed out that one cannot trust results reported by men willing to grossly violate all human standards (i.e., they have no credibility).
  • If these experiments had not been carried out, science would be no different today. (i.e., they had no significance)
  • The methodology is so substandard it can hardly be considered science at all. (i.e. they had no validity)
  • The theories espoused were so suffused with racial ideology as to make them worthless.
  • Others, of course, argued that there was data that could be salvaged, and that it was moral so to do.
  • What is, however, clear is that these experiments were so crude they produced no important information and no significant discoveries. - Nunh-huh 06:04, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Would it be useful to move move the above arguments to the main article? I looked up on this subject primarily to see if the results of these experiments were used later, in addition to why/why not. --mabahj 23:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sea Water Experiments

We unfortunately are not able to prove, that these experiments caused severe injury although we know, that Beiglböck defines down the suffering of his victims in the doctors' trial. Nevertheless we can assume those injuries due to several affidavits.--Bühler 04:49, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm also a bit dubious that these experiments ever ocurred, even though they are in the nuhremberg logs. It has been known for a long time how to remove salt from water. It is nothing new or complex. That the germans would be studying this as the eastern front was moving closer to East Prussia is ridiculous. Lets just remember the Nuhremberg trials also mention the Jew soap and lamp shades and what not, which have been proven to be false. Some common sense should be used in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.23.177.56 (talk • contribs) 07:28, 6 November 2005.

[edit] No more pain

I am fully aware that all these experiments are dehumanizing and inflicted unbearable suffering onto the victims. However, stating several times "they suffered and had great pain" does not contribute to the impact or the image of this subject. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blikschade (talk • contribs) 23:20, 30 June 2005.

I agree with this assessment and find it offensive that so many adjectives are used to describe the suffering of the Jews. I think this is bordering on POV. 24.215.146.229 22:45, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
I was thinking the same thing as I read this page: it seems unnecessary to keep repeating that the victims suffered pain after the descriptions of the experiments which make the pain quite clear. That's three votes for and none against, so I'll make the change. If anyone wants to revert, it's fine, but please give reasons. 68.163.191.90 17:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers of Subjects/Victims

The article states "large numbers of people" were experimented upon, are there any ballpark figures as to exactly how many were subjected to experimentation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Killridemedly (talk • contribs) 18:38, 3 October 2005.

Shame on You
I think it is wrong that this article partially condones the Nuremberg Experimentations. In this article, it says that although these experiments were wrong, they did hold dubious scientific value . It is wrong to say that the deliberate annihilation of the Jewish race, in the name of science, is condoned.If these experiments hold, "dubious scientific value", then why were these literally mad scientist put on trial for their CRIMES. They werent worthwhile scientific hypothesis' being tested, they were CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY!!!!!!!! -----Andrew N. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.113.19.127 (talk • contribs) 16:34, 8 December 2005.
You might want to look up the word "dubious" in a dictionary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.190.81.199 (talk • contribs) 15:30, 9 December 2005.

[edit] Expansion

I think that MORE should be written on the UNscientific experiments performed by Mengele and others on prisoners. I speak of the dissection of live infants; the surgical removal, sans anesthesia, of the heart of a living and fully conscious person; the sex changes performed on adolescents who didnt want them... This article paints these vicious men as true scientists, by focusing solely on the experiments they performed which may have had some scientific value. The men who performed these experiments are the same men who committed the aforementioned acts of sheer violence. We should not leave these other, unscientific violent acts unmentioned when we speak of these men. I request that someone with a deeper well of historical knowledge undertake this. -- Erika. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.128.235.119 (talk • contribs) 18:44, 6 December 2005.

[edit] Results, again

This is copied from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science:

Did any of those awful non-consensual experiments make any significant or lasting contributions to medical knowledge? moink 04:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

This question is addressed at Talk:Nazi human experimentation. Short answer, no. Melchoir 06:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The U.S. made a secret deal with Shiro Ishii, Unit 731, and Unit Ei 1644 leaders that germ warfare data based on human experimentation would be offered in exchange for immunity from war-crimes prosecution in 1948. The US also made secret deals with Nazis. How many have not been since unclassified is unknown. WAS 4.250 16:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Untrue, I recall reading in Hans Rudel's book, Stuka Pilot, there was a discovery about how pilots could survive in freezing water. This was discovered using human experimentation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.41.204.3 (talk • contribs) 15:00, 7 March 2006.
Ah. That deserves checking on, if anyone has access to the book. I'll copy this discussion to the talk page. Melchoir 02:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Melchoir 02:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DR. MENGELE

1. Why did Dr.Mengele take a liking to dwarves, gypsies, twins, and infants?

2.I have heard that Dr. Mengele was phycologically normal. How is this possible?

1: Dwarves, gypsies and twins seem logical. And to some degree infants as well.
Gypsies are, like jews, a more or less "pure" race they dont intermarrige with other races on any larger scale.
Thus it seems logical to test gypsies, jews and germans to discover and document
any difference between the races to underline the germen superiority.

Twins seems logical as well, two absolutely identical individuals to be used in same experiment.
In the same way docters today use 2 groups to try out new drugs, one drug group and one control group.

Dwarwes were back then a raciel mystery, why did some people give birth to dwarfs, had this to do with ancestory? Was the dwarf superior to the jew?
What where the fysiological differences between dwarfs and normal people, did they respond differently to drugs and so forth. I don't know about infants, but it might be due to the difference in regeneration capacaties and imune defenses between infants and adults.

Hope it helps... --81.161.190.12 15:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I always thought that the Jews intermarried frequently. Look at the Sephardi Jews and the Ashkenazi Jews.Caval valor 15:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The followning is a quote from the Ashkenazi Jews article.
"For roughly a thousand years, the Ashkenazi Jews were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews. Human geneticists have identified genetic variations that have high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population. (...) But since the middle of the 20th century, many Ashkenazi Jews have intermarried,"
As the aricle clearly states, the race was very very pure until the middle of the 20th century. Which is around 1950, and that is after the experiments were conducted. --81.161.190.12 16:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

  • But from what I have heard, there was plenty of inflow of genes down the centuries from children conceived by Jewish women's sexual services being demanded by non-Jewish feudal overlords and suchlike. Anthony Appleyard 17:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Little scientific value?

"Almost all of Mengele's experiments were of little scientific value"

I question this statement, because testing drugs on living subjects is commonly done on animals such as dogs or monkeys to this day, and is indeed a federal requirement for new drugs. Utilizing actual humans as test subjects is actually better, since a monkey isn't modeling a human's reaction to a drug, it's modeling a monkey's reaction to a drug. Using an actual human, models a human acurately, and is of scientific value.

While human experimentaion is cruel, I think this statement is POV in attempting to debunk the usefulness of such experimentations. Malamockq 16:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps he didn't follow the scientific method? - Francis Tyers · 15:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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