Talk:Natural Color System

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Contents 1 Early discussion 2 RGB NCS Conversion tools 3 Deleted text 4 NCS to RGB conversion 5 Olympic Flag

[edit] Early discussion

The changes on 5 July 2005 were made by me.--MWAK 5 July 2005 07:32 (UTC)

In view of the recent POV-edit, here some facts:

1. The "Natural Color System" is not scientific: it isn't founded on serious empirical research — indeed the movement has never tried to falsify its tenets.
2. It's in blatant contradiction to the present results of serious empirical research of color perception.
3. The actual system can only work because it surreptitiously perverts its own underlying philosophy.
4. The — overly expensive, may I add — instruments that go with it are themselves calibrated using the scientific system, for the simple reason the NCS is useless.
5. The movement shamelessly exploits human ignorance: it is basically an attempt to profit from the confusion caused by the fact that outdated color theories are slowly replaced by the correct one.

--MWAK 10:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, your alleged "facts" are nothing more than a biassed bunch of ignorant babble. The NCS is based on color opponency, which was presented to the scientific community long ago, nowadays there being a pretty good scientific basis and a whole lot of scientific research supporting it (read something about bipolar and ganglion cells, will you?). Just because some editors here apparently know nothing buabout color opponency doesn't make the NCS "a sham", it only makes them (among them you) look utterly ignorant on the matter they dare talk about.

Secondly, that the instruments are calibrated using another color system that is based on the physical properties of light is not surprising; it should be obvious. NCS is all about the perceptual color space (the one that describes the range and organization of colors as experienced at the upper brain level, not at the lower retinal cone level); it does not deal with spectral light compositions nor with which retinal cones a certain light will stimulate.

Thirdly, that human trichromat vision is indeed perceptually based on the six basic percepts of white, black, red, yellow, green and blue (the elementary colors: two achromat poles and two pairs of opponent unary hues), should be obvious to anyone who cares to think for a moment about which colors do actually look "pure" or "unmixed", so that they can by no means be described as "looking like" a mix of other pure colors. It's no coincidence that these six elementary colors are those most frequently chosen to paint educational toys or for designs that try to appeal from their simplicity (such as in the Olympic flag and the Microsoft Windows logo). Orange, a binary hue, not only results from mixing red-looking and yellow-looking pigments, it does look indeed like "a mix of red and yellow". On the other hand, turquoise, another binary hue, looks blue and green at the same time, certainly not blue and yellow, even though it can be obtained by mixing blue-looking pigment with a bit of yellow-looking pigment. Finally, none of the four unary hues (red, yellow, green and blue) can be described as looking like a mix of other colors (you cannot say, for example, that red actually "looks like a cyan and magenta mixture", or that green actually "looks like a yellow and cyan mixture"), even though you can actually get them by mixing pigments or lights of different color appearance.

Fourthly, a quite different matter is that if you mix a blue-looking pigment with a yellow-looking pigment, you get a green-looking pigment; but here we are not talking about the perceptual color space at all, we are talking about what happens when mixing pigments. Or that if you mix a red-looking light with a green-looking light you get a yellow-looking light; which does not look like a red-green light at all, does it? (read about Crane and Piantanida's experiment if you want to know how to get to see a color that actually looks like a "red-green" mixture).

Fifthly, if you actually are unable to realize that saturated magenta is nothing but a mixed color that looks primarily reddish and secondarily bluish, then you do have a serious problem with your color perception.

Finally, I'm reverting all the ignorant negative bias from this article right now.

Uaxuctum 15:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

O, dear, you are a true believer, aren't you? :o) Let me try to deprogram you — of course I can't guarantee any results ;o).

1. Yes, it's indeed very typical for the adherents of the tetrachromist movement to refer to all kinds of neurological research, just as the admirer of any pseudoscience is often able to cite long lists of articles he thinks are able to support his notions. Why is it that in this they are just as misguided as any creationist or astrologist? The reason is that they are making the very category mistake you seem to think I am making. As the NCS is supposed to be a description of the perceptual level, any results of neurological research have to be translated to that level. How that should be done however, is a complete and utter mystery to present science and philosophy alike. At best neurology can give some tentative suggestions. Tetrachromists make a careful selection from the available data, ignoring the most basic fact among them: that as the neural system simply processes signals from a trichromatic perceptual biological system, the eye, the most parsimonious hypothesis will be that the phenomenal result has a trichromatic structure too. And indeed there are no neurological research data contradicting this hypothesis. It seems to be true that the combined stimuli of two types, "red" and "green" are in opponency against "blue"; but to conclude therefore that the perceptual result of the combination, yellow, is to be placed on the same level with red, green and blue into a tetrachromic system is a simple non-sequitur. It's even worse to conclude that this would be the perceptual system. After all, why stop there? "Cyan" and "magenta" are analysed on a higher level again, which would make for a pentachromic and then hexachromic system. Should we then assume for the latter, two levels of colours: primary and secondary ones, biology, neurology and phenomenology are in blissful trichromic accordance. :o)
2. Now you might retort: "But there is no accordance! Science may research what it will, but I know from my own subjective experience that the human perceptual system is tetrachromic. If you disagree, you are either colourblind or incompetent to judge!" Some scientists would answer to this that subjective experience is not a reliable source of information or even doesn't exist at all. I, however, will of course contend that subjective colour does exist but is experienced in a trichromic way. But then how can I explain that you think you perceive it differently? We can begin by looking at the historical development of tetrachromism. Early tetrachromists also had to compete with a trichromic colour system. But that was a different system from the present one. It was an inferior version based on the mistaken assumption that the primary additive colours were red, yellow and blue. It is noticable that present tetrachromism simply repeats most of these mistakes in that it holds the secondary colours red and blue to be "unary" colours: it is still nothing but the incorrect system with a mistake added: to see green as a basic colour also. But strangely enough this added error made the early tetrachromists in one way superior. The very reason they added green was that they correctly perceived that green is not a mixture of yellow and blue. It is in reality a mixture of yellow and cyan and they were aware that the RYB system failed in this respect. Had their intuitive reflection been even better — or had trichromatism not evolved by itself, blocking this road — they would have created a pentachromic system adding purple, which is after all not a mixture of red and blue (the situation for orange would obviously have been different). As even today the most common social conditioning regarding the ordering of colour concepts is in the form of the RYB system, it wouldn't be surprising if you experienced it as "natural"; the extra colour green would give it a sensation of more perfect completion and satisfy your need for intuitive understanding.
3. But where then did the RYB system itself come from? Part of the answer is very convenient for my position: pure contingency. It so happened that the most saturated pigments available were vermillion and ultramarine, or red and blue. Indeed good magenta is so recent an invention that I doubt most people have a clear notion of it when they use the word. However this explanation is a bit too easy. Linguistic research, starting with Berlin, has shown that apparently there is another level apart from the biological, neurological and perceptual: the psychological. Human languages seems first to create a distinct word for red, then for green or yellow as second or third words, then for blue and only then for other colours. There seem, so it is claimed, to be four Urfarben. I have to admit this is at first blush an indication that the perceptual level might likewise be tetrachromic. However the indication is only slight. There is no real reason to speak of four basic psychological colours as pink ("magenta"), cyan, purple and brown have their own distinctive psychological value too and it is problematic to conceive these values as somehow derived from more basic ones. Also there is no good reason to see languages with three basic colour names as still incomplete, with four names as just right and with more names as exuberant. The number four is not one simply suggested by the data: it is clearly superimposed from a cultural bias, being our own RYB system. Even more troubling is the fact that the colourfoci do not simply coincide with either the trichromic or tetrachromic system: e.g. the focus for yellow is more orange than primary or unary yellow. It seems that a primate was equipped with a system to attend the organism to ripe fruit precisely by employing a psychological system that can be put in contrast with the perceptual one.
4. Probably none of this will have convinced you. When I say: "Why, I clearly, evidently and obviously do experience green as a mixture of yellow and cyan and red as a mixture of yellow and magenta, which latter colour looks only to be in between red and blue because it is a primary component of both", you will in all likelihood merely be amazed by the power of human self-deception. My intuition cannot overcome yours. But perhaps you can be convinced by your own intuition. Indulge me by performing the following thought experiment. Imagine two cans of yellow paint. And a magenta and cyan one. Now if what you say is true, if red and green have no phenomenal yellow, cyan or magenta component whatsoever, it cannot be predicted by any of the conceptual qualities of the colours magenta and cyan what the result of their mixture with yellow would be. It would be a purely physical proces in which only previous experiment or understanding of the underlying physics could inform us of the outcome. Now add the magenta to the yellow paint in one can and imagine that the mixture turned green. And add the cyan paint to the yellow in the other and imagine that it turned red. Would you truly say that this result seems intuitively as natural to you as the usual opposite result? If not, could you unproblematically explain this as an effect of empirical conditioning? How would you know the difference between "true" intuition and conditioned intuition?

Apart from these problems with tetrachromism in general, it should be said that the NCS in particular is a very, very silly ofshoot of it. How is "blue" determined? Where has saturated magenta gone? What serious practical use could be conceivable for such a system (apart from enriching the sellers)?--MWAK 18:08, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I give up trying to discuss with you. The color opponency model of color vision is a widely accepted theory in the scientific community, not some crackpot idea, and there is already quite a lot of research and knowledge about its underlying physiological mechanisms. And it's not at odds with the RGB model, it's complementary to it; they each describe a different part of the complex mechanism of human colour vision, neither describes it entirely. If you choose to doubt it, that's O.K., everyone's entitled to their own opinions; but it's your personal problem, so please keep it away from Wikipedia. This is not the place to publicize your personal doubts or misunderstandings about a widely accepted scientific theory, nor to try to unwarrantedly discredit or cast doubt on the validity of a standard color model used officially in several countries as well as by a very relevant international organization in the field of color trend forecasting. Uaxuctum 15:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You stop discussing because you don't have any valid counterarguments? :o)The point is that the truth of colour opponency has little to do with the truth of the NCS "model". Indeed colour opponency is fully compatible with the RGB system, but the NCS isn't. However your text describes the NCS as if it were true; my edits merely instated the minimum of necessary NPOV by describing it as a hypothesis — as any hypothesis should. Besides your example proving that the NCS is more intuitive (comparing the mixing of red and green paint with the mixing of red and green light) is an apparent mistake on your side: it is logically flawed and wouldn't be used by the typical NCS-adherent. And no, I'm not pushing my personal POV here but simply reflecting the consensus: very few colour scientists see any value in the NCS. And surely any article should also mention that?--MWAK 06:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

No, simply your comments have already made it very clear you don't even understand color opponency, nor anything about how human visions works. Comments like that "as the neural system simply processes signals from a trichromatic perceptual biological system, the eye, the most parsimonious hypothesis will be that the phenomenal result has a trichromatic structure too" make you look like a complete ignorant of the matter. Study something about human vision, will you? There is much more to it than the retinal cones. To start with, the tri-stimulus produced by the cones doesn't reach any further than the retina. The bipolar and ganglion cells that receive their input quickly transform it into a very different kind of signal, one with an achromat component and two hue components, by comparing the relative intensities of those stimulus (the red-vs-green hue component for the relative intensities of the "red" versus "green" cones, the blue-vs-yellow hue component for the relative intensities of the "blue" cone versus the combined signal of the other two, and the achromat black-to-white component by measuring the overall intensity). The initial RGB-type "raw" signal as it is produced by the cones never reaches the brain, which means it cannot be experienced at the perceptual level (and explains why the RGB notations look so unintuitive), and which makes your claim that "I clearly, evidently and obviously do experience green as a mixture of yellow and cyan and red as a mixture of yellow and magenta, which latter colour looks only to be in between red and blue because it is a primary component of both" look utterly ridiculous and clearly shows how fanatic you are being in your attempt to discredit the NCS. Next you'll be claiming to "clearly, evidently and obviously" see black as a mixture of yellow, cyan and magenta. Secondly, color opponency and tetrachromacy are two completely different and unrelated things. Mono-/di-/tri-/tetra-/penta-chromacy refers to the number of different kinds of cone cells, it does not refer to the number of perceptual colors (despite what the -chromacy part of the name may misguidingly induce to believe). Maybe you'd first need to understand that cone signals and perceptual colors are completely different things, and that the absorption spectrum of the so-called "red" cone actually peaks at a point in the spectrum perceptually perceived as yellow; the "red" thing in the label "red cone" is a pure convention and has very little to do with what colors are prompted by the stimulation of that cone. For its part, color opponency deals not with the "raw" RGB-type signal produced by the cones, but with the signal resulting from the complex processing of that "raw" signal at a higher level by other kinds of cells, which compare the relative intensities of the different kinds of cones and take into account the "general picture" of larger areas of the retina. A monochromat sees the world in two elementary color percepts (the achromatic ones) because their retinas cannot compare signals from different wavelengths to perceive hue, but can only measure intensity; so they see the world in black and white (percepts corresponding to lack/presence of light). A dichromat (like John Dalton was), sees the world in four elementary color percepts, because their retinas can process visual input from two different wavelengths, so they can perceive one dimension of hue apart from intensity (the blue-vs-yellow dimension, that is, they can discriminate whether the light belongs on the shortwave or longwave part of the spectrum; if the input from both kind of cones is of similar intensity, then an achromat perception of black/white will be triggered instead; read the descriptions Dalton made of how the rainbow looked to him, and the similar descriptions made later by other dichromats, and also by persons who are dichromat on one eye only). A trichromat sees the world in six elementary colors percepts, because the additional kind of cone allows the retina to make further comparisons between the cone signals so as to produce an additional dimension of hue (the red-vs-green one, which allows finer discriminations in the light spectrum than merely short vs. long wavelengths). Expectedly, a tetrachromat (as some women are suspected, though not yet confirmed, to be) would see the world in eight elementary color percepts (the achromat scale of intensity and three pairs of opponent hues, with an additional pair of hues that is unknown to trichromats just like the red/green pair experienced by trichromats is unknown to dichromats). Uaxuctum 22:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your argumentation. I fear I haven't made myself sufficiently clear. I will try to elucidate my point of view:

1. First of all, while talking about "tetrachromism" I wasn't referring to the condition of tetrachromy but to the doctrine that there are four fundamental hues. So you are a tetrachromist, though, I suppose, not a tetrachromat ;o).
2. I get the impression — but correct me if I'm wrong — that your standpoint is based on a fundamental misunderstanding: that somehow the retinal processing of the trivariant conal input involves a loss of information. But that's not true: the cortex receives all the information needed to create a perception corresponding to the raw RGB input. And the signals are not "very different" from that input. The green-red opponency gives the brain, well, red and green info; and the blue in the blue-yellow opponency gives the brain blue info; and the "yellow" in the latter opponency basically analyses the relative strength of red and green in relation to blue. So the signals are the RGB system with the retina already doing some hierarchical ordering. And therefore I concluded that the most parsimonious hypothesis would be that the subjective perception is ordered along the CMY model. And so I'm not that fanatical in stating that I really perceive red as a mixture of yellow and magenta — and would be greatly surprised if mixing yellow and magenta paint would render green. Again I ask you: wouldn't you? :o)
3. In all of this I'm presuming that you do not simply equate the retinal activity with the subjective perception and that you're not simply assuming Herring was vindicated by the facts. You would agree e.g. with what is written on a site like this: http://webvision.med.utah.edu/Color.html ?
4. The reason that the RGB notation is counterintuitive is simply that it is an additive system. But is the derived subtractive CMY system counterintuitive too? Yes, yellow does not really look like a mixture of red and green. But if you mix red and green paint the mixture doesn't look yellow either: so in this respect NCS and CMY are in accordance and the example can't be given as proof of the intuitive superiority of NCS. The examples I gave however are pertinent: according to the NCS mixing cyan and yellow paint is wondrously counterintuitive and we should be flabbergasted to see the demonic concoction turn green. On the other hand it should be completely inexplicable why a mix of red and blue paint doesn't turn bright pink. Again of course parsimony is on the side of the CMY :o)
5. Whatever the truth of all this, the simple fact is that the NCS or the CIELAB systems are contested. Hård's original colour space of 1968, not even showing saturated magenta or cyan, is taken serious by no one today. The present NCS has a very unclear conceptual description, can indicate no calibration and seems neither to give rise to or to be based on, empirical research. Even if all that you say is true, it can't save the NCS as it functions in the 21st century: as pure pseudoscience. Therefore it should not be presented by a Wikipedia article as established fact. So my edits are the very minimum needed to achieve a modicum of NPOV.--MWAK 19:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, color opponency is not a "doctrine", it's a widely accepted scientific theory (in the very webpage you mention it is stated clearly that "the Opponent Color Theory of the 19th century physiologist Ewald Hering [...] derived by the analysis of subjective human color vision is in general correct"). Whether you choose to accept this general consensus of the scientific community or not is irrelevant, but please stop talking about color opponency as if it were some sort of delirious crackpot idea or some strange cult doctrine, because it is NOT: it is a scientific theory widely accepted by scholars and researchers of human vision as correct in its general statement (that human vision works at the perceptual level with the black-white, blue-yellow and red-green pairs of elementary percepts, and that the latter two are opponent, that is, that each member of the pair excludes the other). Of course, the functioning of human vision is extremely complex, and involves complex processing of the signal not only at the retinal level, but also at the cortex level, so you shouldn't be surprised to find that we do not have a complete understanding of all the details underlying the opponent channels (the author of the webpage does explain some of the difficulties of studying neural responses), but this doesn't mean their existence is questioned. Secondly, I tell you again that the RGB cone signal doesn't reach the brain. The red-green opponent channel is not the same as the RG components. I told you already that the R component does not correspond to color red, are you unable to understand such a basic fact? The R cone's absorption peak is at the yellow part of the spectrum, not at red (in that webpage you can find a chart showing the absorption peaks of each cone against the spectrum). No cone signal has any direct correspondence with a color perception. White is an elementary color percept, which means a pure, completely unmixed color perception that cannot be described in terms of others (so much so that this color is widely considered the epitome of purity), yet this color perception is prompted when all three cones are equally stimulated (that is, when supposedly, according to your misunderstanding of human vision, one should perceive a color of a mixed hue of red, green and blue, that is, looking as some kind of greenish magenta). The elementary color percepts experienced at the perceptual level are the final result of a very complex processing of the tristimulus signal originating at the cones (that the brain has no direct access to). Our conscious mind (our subjective experience of vision) only has access to the final result of that complex processing, which is full of corrections, adjustments, interpretations and visual effects, and whose color dimension is composed of the six elementary color percepts (the colors actually experienced as looking pure and unmixed), not of raw RGB-type tristimulus retinal cone components. It seems that, even after reading the above webpage that explains the concepts pretty clearly, you haven't yet managed to understand the basics of color opponency and human vision, nor what NCS is about and what it is intended for (CIELab, RGB, CYMK, Hexachrome, NCS, Munsell, Pantone, etc., each have a different design goal and a different purpose, so it's stupid to try to judge one with the parameters of another; leaving aside that Wikipedia is not the place to judge them, but to describe them). Uaxuctum 22:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Allow me to answer:

1. The theory about the biological mechanism of colour opponency is indeed so well established that we may call its subject a "fact". What had better been called a doctrine however is the supposed implication that there are four basic colour percepts. There is no consensus on this, if only because many psychologists do not believe in percepts :o).
2. Even among those who do, there has been an at least equally strong tradition that there are three basic percepts: red, yellow and blue; and that these were basic because they were the subtractive primaries. The terms "red" and "blue" were always somewhat imprecise; scientific research then provided the more exact hues, naming them "magenta" and "cyan". According to this hypothesis the cortex creates from the unintuitive additive RGB input a colour perception based on an intuitive inverted subtractive CMY-system. This way there is a congruency between reality as we mostly perceive it happen — when e.g. mixing paint — and how we analyse it by the CMY. Seems quite plausible from a Darwinistic point of view :o).
3. The CMY met with strong resistance. Some turned to the alternative RYGB as it seemed more akin to the old RYB, forgetting that in the other system three of the basic percepts are the old secondaries: the old "orange" should always have been "red" and the old "violet" is identical to "blue". This system is in fact closer to the raw RGB input and thus, if the CMY prediction is correct, more unintuitive, except for yellow: the example you used was thus not to the point because in this case the RYGB and CMY agree.
4. The known facts about the biological system allow for the truth of both the RYGB and the CMY. Therefore only psychological research can decide between them. I know of no data about the subjective perception of colour relations that unequivocally corroborate the RYGB. Even those researchers working in a NCS framework before it solidified into dogma, failed to get the desired results, though asking suggestive questions about the "pure hues" red, green and blue: their subjects put magenta opposite to green, not red. And violet not opposite to yellow, showing that reality doesn't simply conform to either the RYGB or the CMY. That's why the present NCS has such a strange blue, remember? But replacing red by magenta was too much ;o). Perhaps we should let the colours speak for themselves:

According to the NCS these fysically correct transitions from yellow to magenta and from yellow to cyan:

and:

should be, both unintuitive and a priori as likely as these transitions:

and:

Also according to the equation of the biological opponency system with the basic percepts (the NCS is more shrewd in this) cyan would be perceived as the simple mix of green and (violet)blue, without loss of saturation, but not merely in between because it is a component of both and thus identical to an unsaturated mix:

Likewise, according to the NCS magenta would be a simple mix of red and blue, but not a component of both:

[edit] RGB NCS Conversion tools

LS.

I think that the links in the article to NCS/RGB conversion tools should be removed and here is why: RGB (depending on the algorythm used to get from tristimulus to RGB) do not cover the entire 'space' of visible colors. Therefore the calculation of NCS to/from RGB cannot be good as for instance the uttermost red is more red than the R in the RGB. The 100% red in NCS however is probably somewhere in between. Without knowning the XYZ (or any other scientific color space) values of the red, yellow, blue, green and (yes) even the white and black youo cannot calculate the RGB of vice versa. There are even probably NCS colors that do not have a valid RGB value.

Besides this what I would like to know is: what are the references of the NCS system ?

TheBlob 13:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that unless NCS is defined in terms of uncalibrated primaries, it makes no sense to offer "conversions" to "RGB". Perhaps sRGB would make sense, but the problem seems to be that very few Wikipedia authors understand which color spaces are absolute and which are not, and that you cannot convert without a framework. Notinasnaid 14:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

A little more research throws up this very interesting comment, from a developer attempting this "It has been difficult to find two descriptions of NCS that agree. It has been impossible to find a description of the mathematical details of NCS." [1] Given that I have to conclude that NCS is a reference-based system - more akin to Pantone. This isn't a negative thing in itself, but for color scientists it makes it very hard to work with, and almost meaningless to convert. I couldn't find any technical information about its points of reference (e.g. "What is Red") on the NCS web site. The web site does talk of "deep frozen reference samples". Given that, the article should probably not talk about conversions, except to warn of these points. Notinasnaid 14:59, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I fear that you are taking the entire NCS far too serious. Asking questions like these is akin to asking your astrologer where Sedna is in the horoscope. :o)--MWAK 18:17, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted text

I reinstated the text "While the science may be quite difficult to understand most users of the system will simply be choosing or matching colors with printed reference cards." because there was not a clear explanation of why it was deleted. This text had nothing to do with discrediting anything, but was an attempt to make it clearer to the casual reader how NCS can be used by them. I did this because I read the article and could not understand how NCS fitted into other color spaces, so I did a little research to improve the article. Is this statement inaccurate? I don't know much about NCS, but it seemed to be accurate. Notinasnaid 19:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't notice that part. I was trying to revert the edits by the other user, not yours. Uaxuctum 22:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NCS to RGB conversion

Is there a mathematical formula for calculating RGB values from NCS? (Obviously not an exact one, as this would be dependent on things like monitor gamma) Hymyly^T@C 19:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

See "RGB NCS Conversion tools" above... Notinasnaid 20:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Silly me ;) Hymyly^T@C

[edit] Olympic Flag

I've removed the Olympic Flag logo, as it's copyrighted, and can only be used in certain articles per Wikipedia's Fair Use guidelines. Perhaps someone can just mention the Olympic Flag in the article? ...Sorry :o\ tiZom_(2¢) 02:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)