Talk:National Missile Defense

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Although most (though not all) defense analysts believe that developing a system to intercept a small missile attack is technologically possible, some have questioned whether it is strategy that preferably to a promise of retaliation.

The second clause of this sentence is nonsensical. I'm at a loss as to how to rewrite it, as I have no idea what the original author meant. Article history isn't helping either, unless I'm just missing something. Hephaestos

Is missle defense unfeasible? That's what they said about breaking the sound barrier, computers, fighting viruses...that's what they're saying about the speed of light. How do YOU know what the future holds?--naryathegreat 04:48, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

@ Hephaestos. The above sentence is refering to the removal of Mutual Assured Destruction, and is posing whether an anti missile system is preferable to the promise of retaliation. According to recent scaremongering and media coverage, a nuclear bomb could come from anywhere and nowhere so my question would be 'retaliate against who?'. Assuming that a nuclear attack would come via an ICBM or other ballistic means an anti missile system would be preferable, but in the case of a random state financed car bomb or suitcase dirty bomb neither 'defence' would be appropriate, unless the bomber could be isolated and identified, a task that in the remains of a nuclear explosion would be difficult. - Tom Nixon

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I'm boldly deleting the sentence on the suspicion that it is unsupported:

It [SDI] has since then gained the support of some of its erstwhile critics.

If this is simply a matter of my ignorance, please re-instate (but help educate us all by naming the critics or at least explain why they recanted). technopilgrim

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Australia's participation "notable"? As far as I can tell, we're letting the US use existing bases as part as their NMD system. As far as I can tell, there's been no actual money spent by Australia on the system so far, and no suggestion by the government in their forward estimates of any plans (and you can download their forward defence acquisition plans on the internet, if you're interested) to actually spend Australian taxpayer dollars on it. Basically, Australia's position seems to be "if you want to build a system, sure, use your bases for it if you want, but spend your own money on it." It is also notable that Australia has requested that the US take note of Russian and Chinese sensibilities on the issue [1]--Robert Merkel 02:55, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Japanese Involvment 2 More criticism stuff needed 3 Don't Merge Safeguard (nuke) With NMD 4 Suggest Restructuring Article to Emphasize Specific Info About NMD 5 Discuss changes made 6 Revert statement about warheads and decoy balloons 7 Existing, Planned or Proposed?

[edit] Japanese Involvment

Perhaps some mention should be made of the increasing Japanese involvement with the United States' Missile Defense program. See http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Japan_US_Step_Up_Work_On_Missile_Shield_999.html

[edit] More criticism stuff needed

At some stage in the past, the article had a fuller discussion of the tactical implications of NMD, and its limitations (for instance, that it only defends against one delivery method, the one least likely to be used by terrorists, that the US's nuclear arsenal is already an effective deterrent against attacks by other countries, and the existence of a NMD system, while defensive in itself, would give America the ability to attack nuclear-armed states with less fear of retaliation and is thus a de facto offensive weapon). Did this get placed in some other article or did some of our more conservative-leaning contributors quietly remove it because it offended their delicate sensibilities? --Robert Merkel 01:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

OMG< but like how could you ever find anything bad to put in an article about a failed missile system which proposed putting nuclear weapons in space, and ultimatly cost millions in tax dollars, all for 1 succesful, yet rigged, test, like how could you ever find any criticsms--152.163.100.204 01:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I read through this article and noticed it gets a "B" rating, but it should be more like a "P" rating for propaganda in favor of the program. Why is there next to no critism exposing the "successfull" tests as being fraudulent or over exaggerated and unrealistic at best, and why is there no discussion of why a ballistic missile defense system is technically unfeasible given what we know of the technology and its many counter measures?

[2] Bush's Latest Missile-Defense Folly

[3] Missile Defense System Won't Work

Theodore Postol—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.180.101.191 (talk • contribs) .

There's no pro-NMD propaganda in the article. It's completely consistent in tone and coverage with similar material in Encarta and Britannica. The main purpose of an encyclopedia is to describe the topic, NOT to provide a pro/con debate. E.g, automobiles have killed more people than both World Wars and damaged the environment. Many argue mass transit is better. However you don't see this debated in the automobile article. Why? Because that's not the purpose of an encyclopedia. Describing the topic does not equate to a PRO position. Examine the articles on evolution and abortion. They emphasize describing these items, not debating or criticizing them. There are ample avenues to persuade people of your opinions, including Usenet and various discussion forums. Joema 16:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a fact that all of the NMD program tests to date have been highly simplistic and unrealistic, and it is a fact that there are so many simple counter measures to the NMD that it's an outright lie to suggest that the program has any hope of performing as an effective defense shield. Many other Wikipedia articles have a "criticism" section, but this one does not, and what criticism there is, is so toned down that it's almost hidden from view. Without all the known facts in place, the article reads as if it was taken right out of a Pentagon sales brochure. I'm NOT asking for a debate, just an inclusion of ALL of the facts that are relevant to the topic at hand. The wikipedia entry on Theodore Postol contains enough information to back up what I'm saying in here as being factual.

If the intention is to make Wikipedia look like Encarta or Britannica (as you seem to have suggested), then to be consistent with the aforementioned publications, Wikipedia must be locked up and made read-only to the public! An encyclopedia is NOT something that must be "consistent in tone and coverage" to what the establishment favors, instead it should be a source of quality information that covers all of the known facts so that readers may create informed impressions in their own minds. You and I can clearly can see that there's NO criticism section to what is well known to be a highly politicized and criticized subject, therefore the one sided state of the article by itself creates a misleading (and false) impression that suggests the NMD program is a success story without significant opposition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.180.101.191 (talk • contribs) 06:27, Oct 7, 2006 (UTC).

Encarta, Britannica and other encyclopedias don't have major criticism sections because the main goal is simply describe the topic. An encyclopedia is supposed to rise above political debates, and with academic, unemotional detachment, prioritize describing the topic. That's not "selling out to the establishment", it's doing our job. We are encyclopedia writers, not junior investigative journalists looking for negative quotes. Simply describing the topic doesn't equate to a PRO position, even on highly controversial subjects. Examine the articles on abortion, evolution, even Pedophile activism, and you'll see that.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joema (talk • contribs).

Wikipedia already has a generic entry on anti-ballistic missile defense systems that discusses mostly the technical issues. The National Missile Defense program on the other hand, is by its very nature a political program - it cannot be anything else. For example, the main reason for the program has everything to do with politics and nothing else. Each instance of warfare for example, are political events, they are not natural disasters or technical necessities. The National Missile Defense program is much more than only a list of its technical specifications, accomplishments, and failures, the program is also (and clearly so) a political decision that has to be examined in some detail for the subject matter to be made complete. In fact, every announcement of a test is in reality more of a political event than a technical event. For example, we cannot even look at the test data because it's kept a secret, thus the test results should be described as questionable propaganda instead of factual. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.180.101.191 (talk • contribs).

Sticking to the topic is also a priority. The topic is NMD, which is the current effort to provided limited protection against ICBM attacks. The topic is not the previous much more ambitious Strategic Defense Initiative ("Star Wars"). There's a separate article for that, which fittingly has a more extensive criticism section. The topic is also not "debate over whether NMD will work", or "debate over whether SDI might have worked". If you want to write a separate article on those subjects, and link to it from NMD, feel free.

It's true some Wikipedia articles have large criticism sections, sometimes even swamping the descriptive portion. This is a major problem. It damages the credibility of Wikipedia as an academic reference, and diminishes the contributions of many editors. That said, I agree this NMD article might have a little more mention of the associated controversies, but that should be minor in quantity and focus, as it's not the article topic. Joema 19:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

"This is a major problem. It damages the credibility of Wikipedia" -- I'm very much amazed that you think in this way. On the contrary, credibility is gained when factual criticisms and alternative concepts surrounding a topic are explored. It is all too clear that many facts are normally NOT mentioned by the "established" knowledge base for political reasons alone. The very reason why wikipedia has much more credibility than the likes of an Encarta or Britannica is because many people, such as myself and others, are allowed to make contributions (theoretically anyway). The masses cannot be bribed, volunteers are not biased by a need to earn profits, and individuial bias is mostly canceled out through the expression of opposing information.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.180.101.191 (talk • contribs).

Again, I have NOT asked for a debate! I've only pointed out that the article is incomplete and because of this, it presents a biased POV through omission and contains misleading propaganda presented as verified fact. For example, one rather important fact that has been omitted, is that at least some of the early tests were discovered to be fraudulent, or at best contained significant flaws that were intentionally left out of the test results, thus creating a false impression of more success than actually happened (each test announcement is in reality mostly a political event and should be described as such). Due to the indefensible criticisms that flared up after the initial test runs, a tight lid on the test data (and the whistleblowers) stopped scrutiny on subsequent tests, thus only the Pentagon's press releases could be examined. This wiki article presents what is mostly Pentagon press release propaganda, which would not be so bad if the information was stated to be unverifyable and from a highly biased source. Uninformed readers won't always understand that the presented information is comming from politically motivated press releases, and will likely be less informed as a result of reading this article than not! Hopefully people have learned to always read the talk pages before reading the main entry.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.180.101.191 (talk • contribs).

I made several changes to clarify the article emphasis and scope: it's primarily about the current limited NMD system, and briefly reviews some earlier preceding systems. Article is not about missile defense in general, nor tactical antimissile systems like Patriot, nor earlier more ambitious systems like SDI, for which there are already separate articles. Joema 18:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't just sound like a Pentagon sales brochure, a lot of it looks to be directly lifted[4] from DOD press releases! In any case, even without a criticism section, it certainly is pertinent that the tests were all conducted in very favorable conditions. Critics would say rigged. I've engaged in several debates on the Interwebs where supporters of missile defense cite this wiki page in support of their position. I don't think this program is workable. Fine. That's an opinion that shouldn't be in the wikipedia. But the impression that the current page gives is that it can and does work and it gives that impression without any factual basis. TheDeadlyShoe 21:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Conducted in very favorable conditions? Isn't it likely that if a test is not conducted in a favorable / controlled condition that nothing might be learned from the test? Experiments in a lab are tightly controlled and they are similarly controlled in NMD tests. Also, I'm not finding much similarity in this article to the 5 paragraph link you provided.[5] It's being used to reference the October 2002 test, not much POV in that sentence. I'm not seeing the sales brochure section you describe. There is also a "July 2003 Report of the American Physical Society" that provides a rebuttal or criticism that you are complaining is missing. I also see terms like "rudimentary" and "limited" as well as some discussion of historical systems. This article talks about early versions of NMD designed to "counter a limited threat" with simple or no countermeasures. Overall, it seems pretty balanced to me. --Dual Freq 00:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

How is this for criticism: the National Missile Defense program is not defensive but offensive. Should it work, it will place the United States in a position where it can threaten with impunity the use of First Strike against India, China, North Korea, etc without fear of their retaliatory Second Strike. LamontCranston 19:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

India (a U.S. ally) has no ICBMs capable of reaching the U.S. China's ICBM/SLBM force is significantly larger than what NMD can intercept, so the "protection against counterstrike" logic doesn't work there. North Korea has never successfully tested an ICBM, so there's nothing to intercept, as of now. You're apparently confusing the "defense as offense" criticism of a large, robust missile defense with the limited NMD program. NMD is not SDI, it is not a general defense against a significant ICBM attack. It is a limited program to defend against a very light unsophisticated attack. The limited capability implies a defense-only posture, as a full-scale U.S. nuclear attack against a limited opponent would require no defensive protection against an ICBM counterstrike. Joema 13:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Don't Merge Safeguard (nuke) With NMD

On the Safeguard (nuke) page, it says merging that info with NMD is being discussed. I'd suggest against merging, but rather link from the NMD article to Safeguard. Why?

Because although Sentinel/Safeguard was an early missile defense system, it was (a) never national in scope, and (b) entirely different technology than the current NMD. IOW, NMD as currently used is not just a descriptive term -- it refers to specific current missiles and technologies totally different from Sentinel/Safeguard. Joema 16:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suggest Restructuring Article to Emphasize Specific Info About NMD

The current article emphasizes history leading up to the current NMD program, with relatively little detailed information about the current actual NMD project and technologies. Suggest restructuring article to emphasize this more prominently.

For example include specific information about the missiles, radar, warhead, battle management, etc. There's a good article here with more specific information: National Missile Defense (fas.org)

Secondly, suggest adding a brief overview of various missile defense systems, discussing how they differ from NMD but in some cases may integrate with NMD. E.g, MIM-104 Patriot, Israeli Arrow missile, THAAD, Navy Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System, Boeing Airborne Laser, Army MTHEL, and Navy Sea-Based Midcourse Defense (SBMD). While these are all antimissile systems, there's unfortunately no single Wikipedia entry point tieing all this together. Some of these are very well known by the public, and obvious questions are "What's the difference between these and NMD? Why can't you just use Patriot for national missile defense?"

Alternately, you could put most of the above info in the Missile Defense article, but that article seems underdeveloped. This article is currently the most comprehensive article on the subject. I realize this somewhat contradicts what I said above about not fully merging Safeguard with the NMD article, but there needs to be a single entry point for all these antimissile systems, even if the overview is very brief, with links to more detailed specific articles.

A key educational point is battlefield (e.g, Patriot PAC-3) and theater antimissile systems (e.g, THAAD) are generally unable to intercept ICBMs, even if the incoming warhead is within range. This is because ICBM speed is so high, it's beyond the intercept parameters of these missiles.

Another key point is the Navy Theater Wide antimissile system was renamed in 2001 to Sea-Based Midcourse Defense, with capability upgrades planned to intercept ICBMs from ship-launched missiles. This is important because, unlike Patriot/THAAD/Arrow, this would be a true ICBM interceptor and hence part of NMD. Note also there's a difference between Navy Sea-Based Midcourse Defense (SBMD) and Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System. The latter is a technology platform (radar, computers, etc) on which various sea-based missile defenses could be based. Currently SBMD uses only the Aegis radar/computer system. Eventually SBMD may use satellite and land-based radars. So there's a difference between Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense as a platform and the specific SBMD program.

I'm not an expert on this by any means, and I'm sure many people could better contribute or correct some of the above. For example I've seen various names for SBMD -- Sea Based Midcourse Defense, Ship Based Missile Defense, etc. I don't know what the current usage is or the change history.

Lots more NMD and related images and videos here:

[6] [7]

Navy SBMD infrared image telemetered to ground just before impacting target missile: [8]

Joema 20:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discuss changes made

I've made significant changes to the article. Goal was to correct inaccuracies, remove a few lingering POV items, improve readability. If any issues with changes, discuss here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joema (talk • contribs) .

The NATO name, Galosh, should probably be mentioned like all the others listed in Category:Soviet Cold War surface-to-air missiles. --Dual Freq 00:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. My concerns are:

• When referring to the system we should use the system name, and when referring to the missile, the missile name. Doing otherwise is like referring to Safeguard as the Sprint system. The initial Moscow ABM system name was A-35, and it used the Galosh (SH-01/ABM-1) interceptor. The current system name is A-135, and it uses two interceptors: Gazelle (SH-08/ABM-3), and Gorgon (SH-11/ABM-4).

• This and related articles sometimes refer to the current Russian interceptor as Galosh, when it's Gorgon. If mentioning the initial Moscow interceptor, it's Galosh. If mentioning the current two interceptors, they're Gorgon & Gazelle.

I've tried to make these more consistent, but I may have messed up somewhere. Let me know if you see that, or just make the change. I agree using the NATO name when referring to the interceptor makes sense. Joema 00:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

You might want to be careful with wikilinking to redirects or dab pages. ABM instead of just ABM. I think I saw a couple of those, but I'm not sure which article or even if you created them. --Dual Freq 12:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert statement about warheads and decoy balloons

Statement said: "However, the warhead itself was not wrapped in a balloon (as would be likely in a realistic scenario), so it was relatively easy to tell the decoys apart from the balloons."

This isn't supported by the cited reference. The reference doesn't specifically say the warhead was not concealed within a decoy balloon, unless I missed it. It also doesn't say a realistic scenario likely would include concealed warheads. I agree it sounds plausible under some circumstances (depends on attacker and scenario). However it is supposition unless explicitly stated by a credible reference with specific detailed knowledge of the situation. Joema 04:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Existing, Planned or Proposed?

The section "Current NMD program" is vague. The title suggests that this system exists, but the prevalence of the word "would" suggests otherwise. Author: please clarify status. Carrionluggage 05:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)