Talk:National Crime Syndicate

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Contents 1 WikiProject 2 Who called it that? 3 Article drastically cut becauase of inaccuracies 4 Definition 5 Last paragraph 6 Turncoat memoirs and the NCS 7 "The Commission" it is not

[edit] WikiProject

Please see WikiProject Organized crime (proposed) for details on this possible collaborative effort. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MadMax (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Who called it that?

They didn't call themselves that, did they? - Richardcavell 23:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

No, this term is essentially press-created. I think this article is problematic for that and other reasons.--Mantanmoreland 17:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article drastically cut becauase of inaccuracies

I've cut this article substantially because, as previously written, it confused the "National Crime Syndicate" of the Thirties and Forties -- whose very existence is not clearly documented as best as I can see -- with the well-documented internal "commission" of the Mafia or Cosa Nostra and having jurisdiction only over Italian crime groups.

By contrast, the so-called National Crime Syndicate include non-Italian crime groups, notably Lansky's, Lepke Buchalter and so on.

Thus the article referred to components of the Syndicate as being "families," which is both inaccurate and confusing. Lansky's group and Purple Mob of Detroit were not "families." That term only is used for the Mafia/Cosa Nostra.

The original article appears to have relied on the "Last Testament of Lucky Luciano" which was of course a forgery. This article remains deeply flawed mainly by being totally unsourced. I will put on it the appropriate tag. --Mantanmoreland 14:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

In responce to the above statement regarding the 'Commision' and the 'Syndicate', they were one and the same thing. The term Commision was coined at the 1928 meeting of organized crime figures in Atlantic City. There Charlie Luciano was confirmed as the head of the new National Commission, made up of Italian and Jewish mobsters such as 'Boo Boo' Hoff of Phillie and Meyer Lansky and 'Bugsy' Seigle of New York, and established the territory system. This is were the term 'Families' came in.

Luciano established a system were a mafia organization, called a 'Family', could occupy an area of a city or a whole city and mostly peacefully work out any differences with the help of the Commision, which were the top ten or so mafia members, which could be either Italian or otherwise. However only Italians could vote on important issues. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.108.68.23 (talk • contribs) .

What's your source for that? No, that's a lot of bull, with all due respect. The Mafia Commission was organized by Luciano in 1931, after Maranzano was killed. It was internal to the Italian mob and had no non-Italian members. That's according to Valachi and pretty much every other authority. I have no idea where you came up with that.

That's the problem -- the two keep getting confused. Besides, ask yourself this question: if there was a "National Crime Syndicate," whatever happened to it? Did it just suddently evaporate? No, it never existed in the first place.

If you have sources to back up what you say, please cite them. Also pls sign your posts.--Mantanmoreland 00:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

If you would look at the past historical additions to the article, you will note an encyclopedia referrenced on 1 July 06, at 0900 hrs, that will give full details of this information. now as to the year, I have recently checked that and you are correct in that aspect: the year was 1931. However all other information is accurate. the meeting did take place.

as to the NCC, it did not go anywhere. In 1957, the same year Sputnik was launched, there was a meeting of all the major mafiosi and other mobsters in the Apalachin mountains, the Apalachin Meeting. that meeting was supposed to be a major meeting to decide problems following the Anastasia assasination and problems regarding the growing drug trade and affirming the status of Las Vegas as an open city, meaning that no Family was to control the city or start any wars with a rival Family. This meeting, after it just started, was broken up by the local police and the FBI. The mobsters were subsequently released because they had done nothing wrong. However, though the event lead to no arrests, it did lead to the release ofthe existance of the mafia, which had been subsequently denied by the FBI's director, J E Hoover. The most probable reason for this is that he was being black mailed by the Commision, just as so many DAs were in the past.

as to the confusion of the names, the full details are given in the above mentioned article on July 1. the term syndicate was coined by the newspapers. The proper name was the Commision.

as to the fact it was only an Italian operation, then how do you explain that it's founder, Charlie Luciano, had a very close relationship with Meyer Lansky and Bugsy Seigle, two prominant Jewish mobsters in New York (Meyer Lansky was into setting up gambling/financing operations while Seigle operated the enforcement/assasination side of the relationship) were his lieutenants and were major players in the mafia underworld until their subsequent deaths. How is it tha these men could not have been involved in the major decisions of organized crime, when one (Seigle) of them helped found Las Vegas and Murder Inc., and the other (Lansky) set up gambling operations stretching from Hong Kong, to New York to Istanbul.

as for further information regarding the facts of these statements, refer to wikipedias articles on Meyer Lansky, Charels Luciano, Benjamen Seigle, and Frank Costello —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.108.68.23 (talk • contribs) .

That's all OR, which is putting it mildly. You can put in Wiki stuff you just make up out of thin air.--Mantanmoreland 13:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

then look up the relationships on other websites or read some other books.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.108.68.23 (talk • contribs) .

It's the editor's responsibility to source and cite content and to not add OR, just as it is to sign your talk page posts and you don't do that either. I'd be less concerned if what you were attempting to add wasn't sheer nonsense that is just made up out of thin air.--Mantanmoreland 13:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Will you accept the possibility that your information might not be correct? I would invite to look at Answers.com under the 'National Crime Syndicate", where it substantiats the information I have been trying to to place in this article. I also invite you to read the affor mentioned encyclopedia, plus a few other references I would be happy to provide. --stuart armstrong--

You're kidding, right? Answers.com copies Wikipedia articles. I'm done with this discussion. Cite credible sources if you want it in the article.--Mantanmoreland 01:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The anon editor is correct; Mantanmoreland is incorrect. "The Commission" and the so-called "National Crime Syndicate" were one and the same thing. Notice that the FBI, in its history of organized crime, a blanket term, never once uses the term "national crime syndicate," but does refer to Luciano's establishment of "The Commission." [1] Time uses the term national crime syndicate and not "The Commission," but in a context that makes it clear it is synonymous with "The Commission": "[Luciano] modernized the Mafia, shaping it into a smoothly run national crime syndicate focused on the bottom line. The syndicate was operated by two dozen family bosses who controlled bootlegging, numbers, narcotics, prostitution, the waterfront, the unions, food marts, bakeries and the garment trade..." [2] Moreover, Bonnano is quoted as saying the following in the New York Times of the 1931 formation of The Commission: "We replaced leadership by one man with leadership by committee. We opted for a parliamentary arrangement whereby a group of the most important men in our world would assume the function formerly performed by one man. This group became known as the Commission. It originally consisted of the five New York Fathers and the Fathers from Chicago and Buffalo." [3] Now, had there already been a separate national crime syndicate, Bonnano's comments would be redundant. Why would the "Fathers from Chicago and Buffalo" need to join The Commission if they already belonged to this national crime syndicate? And why would it be significant that The Commission got rid of the old one leader regime when that would have just been duplicative of the collegial leadership setup already in use by the syndicate?

The terms were synonymous; this so-called "national crime syndicate" did not exist independently from The Commission. Mantanmoreland's misunderstanding seems to stem from the fact that only Italians could actually vote and take part in the Commission's decisions even though it did accept non-Italian members. [4] Lansky, as a lifelong friend of Luciano's, naturally had his friend's ear and was highly influential within the Commission even without having an "official" voice, but that's also why the Jewish mob disappeared after Lansky died and that link/influence was gone. Heck, even the movie Mobsters, in its postscript, points out that Seigel was whacked when evidence of his embezzlement became known to The Commission, not some "national crime syndicate".-PassionoftheDamon 07:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

More sources demonstrating the two were one in the same...[5] [6] [7]-PassionoftheDamon 08:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, most of the above is OR and countered by verifiable sources (e.g., Valachi). Nothing that Bonnano said supports the position that the NCS and Mafia commission were the same. The websites you site are not verifiable sources. I'd be curious to get Max's view on this if he is monitoring this page.--Mantanmoreland 13:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I thought your edit today was a good one. I don't know how that phrase slipped by me.--Mantanmoreland 13:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I haven't yet had a chance to look over all this as I've been busy with some reference work, however I ran across an interesting FBI document regarding the "Eastern" National Crime Syndicate [8]. I'll try to give my imput as soon as I can. MadMax 19:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow! That is one fascinating document. Where is that on the FBI website?

I think that it we might have trouble integrating it into the article as it is OR. I dug out the Valachi Papers, by the way, and found really nothing helpful except to reiterate that the Commission was strictly Cosa Nostra.

I think the article needs to balance out the diverging opinions that 1) the National Crime Syndicate exists/existed and was a big organic entity and 2) the National Crime Syndicate was a journalistic invention. No. 1 was advanced mainly by Hank Messick and No. 2 by Robert Lacey.--Mantanmoreland 22:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The 'Eastern' Crime syndicate is made up of a lot of former Stasi, KGB and other Cold War types. The Sparrow School of the USSR, where they trained female agents to sleep with their targets to losen their tongues, has been closed and their talents are being applied in the prostitution ring. The former terrorist coordination section hwas become active in smuggling, drugs and weapons sales, and various other people let go, like people who handle 'wet work' or some types of administration from the KGB, have become hit men or contract killers. The same can go for most former intelligence agencies from the East Bloc.Seutonius 07:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

In my opinion, for even a basic rewrite, it should be clarified "what" the National Crime Syndicte is. From what I've read on the subject, a crime syndicate differs from traditional crime families and run more as a corporate structure. The differences between the Chicago Outfit and the Five Families is a perfect example of this. Whereas Italian-American based crime famlies from Sicilian mafiosi (ex. keeping membership to Italians) to the Chicago Outfit's open membership. It could very well be the Chicago Outfit, also largely dominated by Italian and Jewish mobsters, might be attributed to the Chicago Outfit itself. MadMax 04:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's not really clear to me whether the syndicate - even if you accept that something like that existed at some point - had much of a structure at all. I guess the problem with the NCS generatlly would be one of reliable sources. You know, I will try to get ahold of Kennedy's book, the one he wrote when he was on the McClellan commission, when I have a chance as I have been a bit snowed under recently.--Mantanmoreland 13:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• An obvious question seems to be if there ever was an actual National Crime Syndicate at one point, it begs the question what happened to it and where is it now ? I would assume any "combine" jointly controlled by Lansky and Luciano surely would have ended folowing their deaths ? MadMax 23:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

In responce to looking up Kennedy it is unlikely that there will be alot of information there, unles it was writen by Bobby Kennedy, the Attorney General. The reason for this is that the Kennedy Family fortune was built on bootlegging money, and there are indications that Joseph Kennedy had dealings with gangsters all his adult and proffessional life. Seutonius 07:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually Bobby Kennedy wrote a book about the Teamsters in which he might have dealt with the Syndicate. I'll see if I can find a copy.--Mantanmoreland 14:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last paragraph

I've taken out the last paragraph because it appears to be original research. There has been a "fact" tag at the end for quite a while but it was never sourced. Also it is dubious because the Appalachin meeting consisted entirely of Mafia people and had no non-Italians.

I agree that this article definitely needs more from the "pro" camp to balance off the Lacey quote, but it needs to be from a reliable and verifiable source. I have some books in the house that may present the other side of the picture, and I will track em down and insert quotes to balance out the article. --Mantanmoreland 17:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turncoat memoirs and the NCS

Incidentally I just looked in Joe Bonnano's book "Man of Honor," and he makes no reference to a National Crime Syndicate. The closest he comes is to say, "Luciano was iconoclastic also in that he had no qualms about working with non-Sicilians." Isn't that true of all the other "mafia" memoirs that have come out in recent years - that they don't mention a "syndicate" encompassing Italians and non-Italian mobsters? The impression I get is that "National Crime Syndicate" was a term used in the fifties, and perpetuated by some writers who focused on Lansky, but that it has not stood the test of time. --Mantanmoreland 17:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Commission" it is not

Somebody just inserted "also known as the Commission" in the first paragraph. This confuses the vague and possibly nonexistent entity that is the subject of this article with the well-documented Mafia Commission. --Mantanmoreland 18:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)