Talk:Narnia (world)

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Contents

[edit] Moving Content in Narnia pages (possible split?)

I'm interested in moving some of the content in the pages about the Narnia books. Specifically, I would like to move the information about the 'world of Narnia' out of the places:Narnia page and onto the The Chronicles of Narnia page. My thinking is that all of the other places pages deal with parts of the Narnia world (mostly various countries and islands) but the Narnia page deals with those details plus information about the 'Narnia universe'. I think things would be more consistent if the stuff that dealt with the whole world were on the The Chronicles of Narnia page.

Another solution would be to have two Narnia pages. One for the country and one for the world in general, but this seems more confusing to me than simply using the pages that currently exist.

If either of these changes is made, we should also change the 'Narnia content box' (I don't know the right term for that thing). And move it to the top of the page (which seems to be the location most often used in book series). In its current location it is very easy to miss most of the the Narnia content.

I am crossposting this to Talk:The Chronicles of Narnia, so you might also look for responses there. Lsommerer 03:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Thinking about this a bit more, I think the best thing would be to split the page into Naria: The World and Narnia: The Country (Those are terrible names. What would be better?). Most other fictional universes don't have this problem, because the main country isn't the name of the world (Middle Earth: Gondor). Lsommerer 01:04, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Added Narnia (country) and moved content specifically about the country of Narnia (within the world of Narnia (within the Narnia multiverse)) there. Also moved content that applies more to the books than to the world from here to The Chronicles of Narnia.

[edit] Resort Communities

User:Kaleb70: "Restored reference to "resort communities"; The Horse and His Boy chapter 3 says there were "pleasure houses" along the river."

Could it be that "pleasure houses" refer to brothels? It's been awhile since I read the Horse and His Boy but that seems rather more likely to me than resort communities. -Silvermask 18:11, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)
I don't have a copy of Horse and his Boy. Could we have more context of the reference? It would seem unlikely that Lewis was making an explicit reference to brothels in a children's book, but I would have thought that he meant drinking/gambling/other entertainments rather than 'resort communities' which really didn't exist in Britain at that time. DJ Clayworth 18:31, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Chapter 3 - At the Gates of Tashbaan, pg47 (full color collector's edition paperback - First Harper Trophy edition 2000)
"Shasta thought they should go up the river above Tashbaan and cross it where it was narrower. But Bree explained that there were gardens and pleasure houses on both banks of the river for miles and that tehre would be Tarkaans and Tarkheenas living in them and riding about the roads adn having water parties on the river. In fact it would be the most likely place in the world for meeting someone who would recognize Aravis or even himself."
Hmm... rather vague. -Silvermask 23:26, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

With that context, and if "pleasure houses" referred to "brothels", that would villify (or at least have been very awkward for) Aravis and Bree. But it could be explained. Aravis may have been forced to go there for whatever reason (imagine it), and Bree of course was a war horse, and whoever would have taken him there would have been a soldier. It makes sense. --D. F. Schmidt (talk) 20:42, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Narnian vs. Earth time

The article presently says, referring to intersections between Narnian time and our time: In some cases the intersections occur in different orders on each timeline. For example, an intersection occurs at the creation of Narnia and the year 1900, but on an earlier unknown date preindustrial pirates from the South Sea had already stumbled into Narnia's fifth century, one of the most confusing effects of the Narnian timeline. The relevant passage from Ch. 15 of Prince Caspian is: Many years ago in that world, in a deep sea of that world which is called the South Sea, a shipload of pirates were driven by storm on an island. And there they did as pirates would: killed the natives and took the native women for wives, and made palm wine, and drank and were drunk, and lay in the shade of the palm trees, and woke up and quarrelled, and sometimes killed one another. And in one of these frays six were put to fright by the rest and fled with their women into the centre of the island and up a mountain, and went, as they thought, into a cave to hide. But it was one of the magical places of this world, one of the chinks or chasms between that world and this. [...] And so they fell, or rose, or blundered, or dropped right through, and found themselves in this world, in the Land of Telmar which was then unpeopled. I see nothing to indicate that these pirates were "preindustrial", and therefore no reason why their entry into Telmar could not have taken place in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century of our world, after the events of The Magician's Nephew. Donald, 10.30 p.m., 16th January 2005

I agree, there is nothing to indicate preindustrial pirates. There is no timeline confusion, so it should be taken out. -Obdormio 10:17, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The first half of that quotation sounds a lot like the Spanish conquistadores. -- D. F. Schmidt (talk) 20:42, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Does it even matter what time the pirates were from? The main point is that Narnian time and Earth time flow differently. --Tim4christ17 11:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested additions

I think this page would benefit from having something about the Christian themes of the books. Perhaps something about criticisms too(the accusations of racism and sexism, for example)? Also, it's not clear what the "To Be Written" section is about. Are these books that Lewis wanted to write but never got around to, or what? --Raye 14:57, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Narnian monarchial titles

From the article: "Titles of a monarch of Narnia are: King of Narnia King of Archenland (a title given from Frank I to Frank V) King of Terebinthia (acquired by Caspian X) Lord of Cair Paravel Lord of Telmar(from Caspian I to Tirian) Duke of the Lantern Waste Duke of Galma & The Seven Isles Emperor of the Lone Islands,Burnt Island,Dragon Island,Deathwater Island,Dufflepud Island,Dark Island & The Isle of the Star. Baron of Ettinsmoor (acquired by Caspian's conquest) King of Bism (Jadis was queen with Rillian as her prince.Therefore with her death Bism is a Nrarnian Dominion.)" -- errors are in the original. Several nits here:

  • First of all, Bism wasn't where Rillian was held all those years. From what I recall from The Silver Chair, Bism is a land that's even deeper in the earth.
  • Secondly, Jadis wasn't the "evil Queen" in The Silver Chair. Jadis was the White Witch in The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe, plus the Empress of Charn in The Magician's Nephew.
  • As far as Burn Island, et. al; was it ever directly said that Caspian claimed the discovered islands in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader for Narnia? I know Caspian did initially claim Deathwater Island when the gold-making pool was discovered, but with the help of Aslan, the uniqueness of the island was forgotten. As far as Dufflepud Island, Dark Island, and The Isle of the Star… well, it seems to me that:
    • Dark Island (where nightmares come true) was unclaimable.
    • Dufflepud Island was essentially ruled by Coriakin the Wizard, with the blessing of Aslan.
    • The Isle of the Star is essentially Ramadu's, isn't it? Never mind that his daughter married Caspian.

Or am I nit-picking too much? --Micahbrwn 23:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

So why don't you change it? :-P As I recall, Dark Island ceased to exist after they conquered it, right? As for the "Titles" section as a whole, it looks like a whole big mess. I'm going to clean it up so that it is at least presentable, even if faulty. Someone else can clean it up even more if that suits them and if they have the stuff before them. I don't even have the books with me, so I can't say anything. -- D. F. Schmidt (talk) 20:42, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure that Caspian X was King of Narnia _and_ Telmar? The Archenlanders are of Nanrnian human stock, but are independent. (written by anonymous User:66.253.221.237)

Anonymous User:66.253.221.237, it seems that you used the article proper to explain why you removed and altered a few titles of Narnian kings. That isn't quite proper, as I can tell, because you are talking about things that are no longer listed in the main article. (They're not even struck through, and so is correct--normally, there should be no strikethrough in an article.) You should make notes for why you removed something in the talk portion, and you should make notes only on what remains--if there are any relevant notes--on the article's proper page. Please edit the page appropriately. I myself, as I said, don't have to books, so I don't feel comfortable editing as such, except for formatting, which is all I did before. But if it isn't changed in the near future, I'll change it myself to the best of my ability. --D. F. Schmidt (talk) 04:39, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Clarifications
  • For most of Narnian history, the Kingdom of Archenland is an independent perpetual ally of Narnia.
  • The Shallow Lands or Underland are a separate region than the Land of Bism. Underland stretched from the accessible depths of Narnia to the shallow depths near the Ruined City of the Giants. It was this territory which the Queen of Underland ruled. The Land of Bism lies far below. It probably is a monarchy of some kind.
  • The crew of the Dawn Treader fled Burnt Island without claiming it as a Narnian dominion.
  • Dark Island, the land of manifest nightmares was not claimable even if someone had wanted it (it was destroyed in 2306 in early editions of the Voyage of the Dawn Treader, but survives in later editions).
  • Deathwater Island was only temporarily claimed for Narnia by Caspian X in 2306
  • The disgraced star Coriakin was ruler of Dufflepud Island.
  • The star Ramadu was lord of the Island of the Star. Although Caspian X married Ramadu’s daughter and by her became the father of Rilian, there is no evidence within the Chronicles that Ramadu returned to being a star or passed sovereignty of the island to his Narnian descendants.

[edit] Frank V ?

Where did the title Frank V come from? As I remember from the Magician's Nephew, it was Frank I and Helen's second son who was the first king of Archenland.

--Lavintzin 22:05, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] talking mice inconsistency?

While all rodents listed above are mentioned throughout the Narnia books, mice in particular are given special attention by their services to Aslan in the first book and the swashbuckling character of Reepicheep. Mice are also unusual in that they were not designated as Talking animals at creation. Some mice were given the gift of speech much later in Narnia's chronology after they chewed the ropes binding Aslan the Lion to the Stone Table. This is usually seen as an inconsistency caused by the fact that The Lion, Witch and Wardrobe was written before The Magician's Nephew.

Where's the inconsistency? --Taejo 09:27, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on External Links

I'm removing 2 external links. Anyone have any thoughts:

I'm also removing an external link, as it links to Narnia-related merchandise.--Tim4christ17 22:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

They all seem reasonable to me (for what that's worth). The Jiggerbug links magically reappear every few months, and it's worth looking for other pages that they've been added to. LloydSommerer 00:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Destruction of Narnia edit

Use of the word 'modernize' [single quotes original to previous version of article] seems to be *not* NPOV. The term is never used in The Last Battle and smacks of editorializing. One could characterize the same plot elements as "exploiting the environment" were one so inclined.

[edit] Christianity

Tell me, why is there a glaring lack of documentation on the fact that the story is a Christian allegory? Shouldn't that be documented also, as it's a fairly important fact to understand the morality of the Narnia saga.

There are sections concerning the Christian aspects of the books in The Chronicles of Narnia and in the various books as well as in individual character articles. There's really not much to say about the universe itself. LloydSommerer 14:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
It should be mentioned in here too imho, since it's important to know this link with Christianity if one wants to understand the world of Narnia itself too and how it operates. --Utotri 15:44, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Narnia Screenings section

I don't think this section should be in this article about the world of Narnia. I think the various "screenings" are more appropriate in The Chronicles of Narnia. In fact, I think they are covered there in greater detail already. Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter? LloydSommerer 18:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

A small note:Aslan means "Lion" in Turkish --85.104.135.102 22:05, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] False Info?

Could someone please check that Digory gave the fruit to his mother? I remember reading that Aslan said she would regret eating it and stopped Digory from giving it to her. I'll check in a bit if no one else does. Twipie 18:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Definitely he did, but it was a fruit from the tree that had grown from the original fruit. If he had stolen that original fruit, as the witch Jadis had tempted him to do, and given that to his mother, then, Aslan said, the time would have come when both she and Digory would have said that it would have been better for her to have died of her illness. When Aslan told him to pick a fruit and take it to her, the fruit had no such evil effect. --Lavintzin 23:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting "Mythological Characters"

Would anyone object too strongly if I separated out the evil creatures? (Not the wolves or the Black Dwarves, but those creatures whose natures themselves were evil: e.g. Hags, Werewolves)

I think it's currently fine the way they are.

[edit] Book Ordering precedent

I have come across a few startling finds in terms of seperate Narnia pages on here. I would assume that the original order of the books would end up being used for the Wikipedia pages, as those were the original ones at time of publishing. Using the new order by only American publishers and not in other English speaking/non-English speaking nations (I assume) should not take precedent over the original order of the books, to do otherwise could be construed as historical revisionism I would suppose. I'll stick around for a few days and see if anyone has other ideas or I might just be bold WP:BB and change them to the original publishing order, or at least refer the new order as the new distribution order. Radagast83 02:04, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, I don't know what is wrong with me tonight! Radagast83 02:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dwarfs vs. Dwarves

I think the word dwarfs is usually the accepted plural when refering to real-world humans with dwarfism, while dwarves refers to the mythical beings. Does anyone think we should change "dwarfs" to "dwarves" to clarify the destinction? JDspeeder1 08:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that "dwarves" was Tolkien's preferred spelling, as also "elvish" or "elven" (as opposed to "elfish" or "elfin"); he wanted to use an unusual spelling which would mean something less "twinky" (not the way he described it) than the standard (Disneyfied?—he didn't like Disney) notions. But Lewis used "dwarfs" in the Narnia books, and I think that spelling should be used here. --Lavintzin 20:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Witches

I was under the impression that Jadis and Lady of the Green Kirtle were the same person, if the cast of characters(HarperTrophy paperback) is considered canon;

"Jadis. The last Queen of Charn, which she herself destroyed. Jadis arrives in Narnia with Digory and Polly in The Magician's Nephew and has taken over the land as the White Which in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Completely evil, she is also very dangerous, even in The Silver Chair." Jynx980 06:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not canon.

Does the cast of characters appear in any other book versions aside from the set ones? Who is credited with the information? How long has it been in use? Jynx980 06:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know Lewis did not list the cast of characters. The books themselves make it clear that She of the Green Kirtle is not the same person as the White Witch, but at best "one of the same crew". The White Witch is killed at the end of LW&R, though there is a necromantic attempt to call her shade back in Prince Caspian. Book covers, fly-leaves, and editor-produced front and back matter are notorious for giving unreliable information about what is in the books—this is one of those cases. --Lavintzin 12:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I've had a theory about the White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle for a while, but it really fleshed itself out after I watched Disney's "LWW" film. I think that it is possible that the witch could perhaps transport her spirit from one body to another, much like a demon can posses one body, leave it, and then posses another. Lewis, being the most Catholic Anglican I've ever come across, could have viewed the witches' powers as being like a posessive demon as per the Roman Catholic tradition. This would also provide insight into the "Deplorable Word" which Jadis spoke in order to destroy Charn; Could the Deplorable Word be the Narnian version of holding a seance or consulting a ouiji board? The reason this really struck me after seeing the film was that someone commented to me that the White Witch looked a lot like the Borg Queen of "Star Trek", and it has been established there that the Borg Queen is capable of saving her consciousness in a new host should her current body become compromised. 69.48.147.4 15:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

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