Talk:Napoleonic Wars

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Contents

[edit] Combatents

Surely the USA was not an allied power as it fought against the British Empire in the war of 1812 in SUPPORT of the First French Empire?


[edit] Location Atlantic Ocean ?

True, there were naval battles in the Napoleonic Wars, but were these not confined to waters close to shore? Is Atlantic Ocean really accurate?

---Bryson 01:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The First World War?

Anyone agree?

-G


[edit] Napoleonic Wars – Total war?

Could the Napoleonic Wars be considered a Total War? There was wide spread conscription. Mobilization of civilians as combatants (i.e. Guerrilla warfare in Spain). Countries willing to go to extremes, such as Russian scorched earth tactics, and the series of coalitions against France.

---Bryson 01:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misc.

NAPOLEON WAS CROWNED BY THE POPE. THE PICTURE OF NAPOLEON GRABBING A CROWN WAS OF HIM CROWNING HIS WIFE -- LOOK AT THE PAINTING, NAPOLEON ALREADY HAS A CROWN ON HIS HEAD. THE CROWN ON HIS HEAD WAS PUT THERE BY THE POPE.

Quote from article: although he was never really accepted by the hereditary monarchs. Question? If this were so, why did the Emperor of Austria welcome the marriage of Napoleon to his daughter?

From memory, because he thought it would restrain Napoleon from his usual habit of beating up the Austrian army and occupying Vienna every year or two.

This response creates the impression that Francis I approached Napoleon with the prospect of marriage. He begrudgingly accepted Napoleon's overture because it was a term of the peace that concluded the Wagram campaign. Napoleon believed that the marriage to Marie Louise would serve as the basis for an implacable Franco-Austrian alliance. His Corsican concepts of family affected his perception more than his thorough knowledge of history. The Hapsburgs preferred marriage to the bayonet as a means of diplomacy. Marie Louise was raised with the understanding that she would be wedded purely for political expediency. What's more, Metternich made a statement to the effect that politics had made that bond, (between the two empires, as well as the matrimonial one) and could thus undo it with equal ease. The extent to which the Hapsburgs saw children, particularly women, as a tool of diplomacy, is the most important factor in accounting for Francis I's acquiescence.

Do we need to banch off a separate article on the invasion of Egypt? Quite a few articles refer to it, eg Rosetta stone, Etienne-Louis Malus. What should its title be? Napoleonic invasion of Egypt? -- Tarquin 10:15 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

Also Battle of Alexandria in 1801, given its own entry after excision from Alexandria -- I have not added it to List of battles yet because I didn't know how to classify it. Catherine 00:25 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

Why isn't Denmark mentioned in this article? I think they were an ally of Napoleon after the British assult on Copenhagen harbour. Moravice 10:30 May 21, 2003

[edit] neutrality of this article is disputed

NVOP Problem, "French perfidy" and other stuff about the hopefully finally defeated French army are totally nonsenses in most part of the world outside british borders. "en bref" this article is not only not neutral but even offensive for continental public, and last but not least, about the levée en masse: in reality Napoléon won almost any battle in numerical inferiority compared to the enemy. Surcouf (Talk) 20:36, 2 Nov 2004 (UCT) (moved from article to talk page by Philip Baird Shearer)

"Perfidy" is from an old French saying "Perifidious Albion", most of the Britons don't know what it means (without going to the dictionary), but assume that as Napoleon said it, it must be an insult [1] :-) So I agree the word should go.
To resolve your issues please bullet point and highlight the phrases you disagree with and suggest an alternative. eg

Currently

  • The Treaty of Amiens (1802) made peace between Britain and France, marked the final collapse of the Second Coalition. The French "perfidy" led to Britain refusing to honour the treaty and the renewal of hostilities from May 18, 1803. The conflict changed over its course from a general desire to restore the French monarchy into an almost manichean struggle against Bonaparte.

Suggest it is replaced with

  • The Treaty of Amiens (1802) made peace between Britain and France, marked the final collapse of the Second Coalition. When the time came for the implementation of the treaty, Britain refused to implement certain terms, such as evacuating their military presence from Malta, and the French refused to respect other terms of the treaty. Hostilities renewed on May 18, 1803. The conflict changed over its course from a general desire to restore the French monarchy into an almost manichean struggle against Bonaparte.


I am not sure what you are complaining about with levée en masse I would have thought the section "Military legacy of the wars" describes what it was and why it was such an advantage in the early part of the wars. But as you can bullet point them no doubt you can show me. But I do want to make one comment don't assume that the views of Frenchmen are the same as "most parts of the world outside British borders". In the final campaign Britain, Russia, Prussia, Sweden, Austria and a number of German States all united against Napoleon in person. These states had a lot of the "continental public" in them. Philip Baird Shearer 14:18, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It isn't a matter of NPOV nearly so much as it is a matter of simply being a very poor article. It's dreadful! I was going to copyedit it into shape just now, but I got discouraged when I realised just how big a task it will be. I don't have all day! Tannin 14:39, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The choice of images lacks neutrality too:
- the only map provided is that of the campaign of Waterloo;
- 1st-2nd coalitions: I had forgotten that Russian troops had been crossing the Alps at that time, not that Napoleon's troops arrived at Marengo that way too, when and where they were not expected;
- Maybe it's my own French POV, but I did remember the Third coalition as well for Austerlitz as from Trafalgar;
- All right, a French victory is pictured, the charge of Somosierra, won by 200 Poles...
I won't say I am perfectly neutral, but loking only at the pictures, it's a wonder that these wars could last so long with the allies winning so many battles and so much glory, and hardly a French soldier in sight. 81.57.232.80 22:12, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What's with the Poles?

The Poles seem to get more attention in this article than a small nation (that didn't even exist at this time as a nation) such as itself deserves. I will edit out the straight fallacies (that Poles constituted 30% of Napoleon's army in 1812 - this would mean Poland supplied more than 200,000 troops, which is almost as many as France supplied for the invasion force). I have edited out the excessive references to Poland in the past, but they seem to come back repeatedly.

[edit] First paragraph

The Napoleonic Wars lasted from 1799 until 1815 .... Sometimes the wars are given as lasting from 1799 (the year Napoleon seized power) until 1815.

These two sentences form the first paragraph sounds repetitive to me. Is there a mistake in the years? Hayabusa future 04:21, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I've changed it to be more clear. May I suggest that we take out the material about the War of the First Coalition, at least, and probably most of the material on the Second Coalition, as well? Most accounts generally start the Napoleonic Wars proper in 1803. john k 04:31, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish translation

Hi mates!

I've translated your superb article about Napoleonic Wars to Spanish. You can find it at: Guerras Napoleónicas. I hope I did only few mistakes, but I'll be happy if somebody with Spanish skills go in and take a look... just to preserve the original sense of the entire thing. I'll also thank any comment you give me. Thanks a lot. - Hispa.

[edit] Suggestions

I'm thinking the two legacy sections should be moved up and the sections on the individual wars should be more condensed. Also it could be good to have a timeline or more of a summary and a picture of Napoleon and an overall map of Europe at the time. Maurreen (talk) 15:05, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Great French War

We say that "Collectively, the nearly continuous period of warfare from 20 April 1792, until 20 November, 1815, is sometimes refered to as the Great French War."

Does anyone have any idea who refers to it as this as it is certainly not a widely used term, at least in the UK. I've done a quick google search and all it finds is [www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Great-French-War] which is a straight copy from the wikipedia article on Great French War. If there is no substantiation for the use of this term (which I'd never heard before) then it should be removed (or at least modified to say who refers to it as this). AllanHainey 14:03, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe the term Great French War was more common in the early twentieth century when the First World War was referred to as the Great War. Previously the Napoleonic Wars and Revolutionary Wars had been together referred to as the Great War. To distinguish between the too the term Great French War was used. I believe, and I'm not sure, that some in the years following the end of the First World War referred to it as the Great German War, but this didn't last long. The term Great French War is only used sporadically today and is mainly found in early to mid twentieth century history books.

[edit] minor errors?

The Second Coalition (1798-1801) of Russia, consisted of the United Kingdom, Austria, The Ottoman Empire, Portugal, Naples and the Papal States.

(no russia in list!) shouldn't it be

The Second Coalition (1798-1801) consisted of Russia, the United Kingdom, Austria, the Ottoman Empire, Portugal, Naples and the Papal States.

yes, I'm sure it should be consisted of Russia etc.--Fenice 19:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

In the Fifth Coalition Section:

Austria, previously an ally of the French, took the opportunity to attempt to restore its German empire held prior to Austerlitz. Austria achieved a number of initial victories against the thinly spread army of Marshal Davout. Napoleon had left Davout with only 170,000 troops to defend France's entire Western frontier. The same task had been carried out in the 1790s by 800,000 troops and at that time those forces were required to hold a much shorter front.

I'm certain this should be Eastern (France doesn't have a Western frontier). .--Greeny 24 August 2005

[edit] Alan Schom reference

The Alan Schom reference is a very dubious source. On Amazon.com it has been discredited as a non-neutral anti-Napoleon work and has received low reviews in spite of its depth. If that book is used for any sources I recommended double-checking them. Thanks. Aaрон Кинни (t) 14:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revision of "War of Fifth Coalition"

The current "War of Fifth Coalition" section of this article needs to be revised because:

  • It incorporates events, such as the Battle of Copenhagen in September 1807, which pre-date the formation of the 5th Coalition.
  • The coverage of the start of the Peninsular War, and how it led to the creation of the 5th Coalition, is inadequate.
  • Moreover, the start of the Peninsular War, "The Spanish Ulcer," was a key development in its own right and merits a separate section.

I'm willing to initiate the necessary revisions, but I hesitate to edit such a prominent article without first soliciting other views. --Paco Palomo 17:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 20:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] THE ITALIAN ROLE IN THE NAPOLEONIC WARS

This article about the Napoleonic Wars don`t consider important FACTS. The battles of Mondovì between France and the Kingdom of Sardinia (April 21, 1796) or the battle of Lodi between France and the Kingdom of Naples (May 10, 1796)were FACTS. The battle of Campotenese (March 9, 1806) between France and the Kingdom of Naples was a FACT. The advance of 18,000 soldiers of the Kingdom of Sardinia in 1815 until Grenoble and Lyon was a FACT. If the article about the Napoleonic Wars want to ignore FACTS, well this is against the historical truth and the democratic right of readers to improve Wikipedia!

If you have something important to add to this discussion, I suggest you stop doing it by adding weird material by going through several IP addresses. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 21:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Napoleon's 1796 Italian campaign is, so far as I am aware, generally considered to be part of the French Revolutionary Wars. And at the Battle of Lodi, Bonaparte was facing an Austrian army under, I believe, General Beaulieu. john k 02:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Per john, the Napoleonic Wars are traditionally defined from 1805 to 1815. The user is somewhat right in the sense that Italians played an important role in the Grand Army, but I'm not quite sure what he or she wants us to emphasize or include in the article. Any specific suggestions dude?UberCryxic 05:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

THE ITALIAN ROLE IN THE NAPOLEONIC WARS (II)

What I add its`n "weird" material. I am a serious researcher. All the informations I add are in several Italian books but nobody knows that abroad. I don`t know why. The attack against Grenoble (taken on July 9, 1815) and Lyon (taken on July 15, 1815) was led by General Vittorio Sallier della Torre (1774-1858).Who knows him today? So be grateful I told you something you didn`t know. Let`s add those informations to the article. Don`t you like the name "Napoleonic Wars" for the Campaign of 1796? Let`s say War of the 1. Coalition. This isn`t important. Yet I am fed up to watch movies about Napoleon where the French Army faced in Italy the Austrians only. This is against the historical truth! I consider the troops of the legal Italian States only. I don`t consider the Napoleonic "Kingdom of Italy" a legal Italian State. Sorry.

I was talking mostly about the problem that you had three consecutive entries, all of which had capital titles, and whose content seemed to do nothing to add to the discussion, and two of whom said exactly the same thing (from different IP addresses). I didn't mean to offend, and I'm sorry if I did. But I couldn't make heads or tails of your first three entries, and I'm not sure anyone else would have been able to either. Hope this helps, good luck. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 06:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
It is a fact that in Italy the French were mostly fighting Austrians, although certainly they fought the Piedmontese and Neapolitans as well. I don't think that the Venetian, Genoese, Modenese, Parmese, Papal, or Tuscan armies ever fought the French. I would also note that only mentioning times when Italians were fighting against Napoleon, while not mentioning the Italian states Napoleon created and the Italian soldiers who fought in the Grand Army, is highly one-sided. john k 13:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


Yeah your last point is a very good one john. The Italians were probably Napoleon's best troops after the French (either them or the Poles), so their contributions to the Grand Army over so many years are way more notable than what they did during the 1796-1797 campaign. With all respect to the user, the actions that you mention are really not that significant in the larger strategic picture. The French had already lost at Waterloo by July 1815 and Napoleon abdicated in June. The assaults you are talking about were part of the follow-up occupation of France, which was fait accompli anyway. It doesn't make them worthy of inclusion into the article at all.UberCryxic 15:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I respect the Italians who fought in the Napoleonic Army. For example they fought very well (October 24, 1812) at Malojaroslavec but I consider them more as "victims". Our legitimate kings were (1810) the Savoy in Sicily and the Bourbon in Sardinia. Just like the legitimate Kings of Britain were in London! Yes, Modenese, Parmese, and Papal troops fought against the French in 1796. I never said the Italians armies were stronger than the Austrian Army I only say that they are always ignored and thisn`t fair (remember the last movie about Napoleon, made by the french). In 1815 Napoleon was taken prisoner by the British on July 15, just the day of the arrival of the Piedmontese troops to Lyon. So the fall of the dictator and the offensive overlap each other.

Surely you mean the Savoy in Sardinia and the Bourbons in Sicily. And Napoleon abdicated on June 22, and Louis XVIII was restored on July 7, so this is really very late. The campaigns against Naples should probably be mentioned in the article, if they are not now. The material on the various Italian states during the French Revolutionary wars should go in that article. That Piedmont-Sardinia was involved in the Hundred Days Campaign seems of minor importance - even the Austrians and Russians did very little in that campaign. I also notice that you don't include the Habsburgs in Vienna and Würzburg, or the Pope in Savona as among your legitimate rulers... john k 18:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course I include pope Pius VII, for the Papal States, but he was kidnapped. However I enjoy you share my idea to include the campaignes against Naples. The fierce resistance of the Neapolitan people in January 1799, the battle of Campotenese (1806), the resistance of Amantea (until 1807)are important and full forgotten. Just like the resistance of our partisans in the North and especially in the South (Michele Pezza or "Brother Devil" = Fra`Diavolo). Today people in the world believe only Spaniards had a resistance against the French. Wikipedia should help to change this situation. The campaign of Piedmont-Sardinia of 1815 is more politically important. More important (military) is the British-Neapolitan liberation of Genoa in 1814.

The events of 1799 belong to the French Revolutionary Wars, but events of 1806 should be detailed here, and perhaps some attention to the continuing simmering conflict between the Bourbons and Sicily, assisted by the English, and the French in Naples, should be mentioned. The British-Sicilian capture of Genoa should certainly be discussed, as well, but only briefly - it is a relatively minor front compared to the major struggles of the period. john k 22:41, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of your thoughts that they were "victims," they still fought honorably and bravely and should be remembered for it. Since this is pretty much the only relevant information for inclusion in the article - certainly not your other points - it should take precedence.UberCryxic 01:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Why shouldn't the Napoleonic conquest of Naples be mentioned here, or the Anglo-Sicilian capture of Genoa in 1814? john k 01:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the sense of Wikipedia is just this. readers proposes changes and you decide what you want to choise. I full agree that Italians in the Napoleonic Army have to be mentioned, though they didn`t represent the "legal" country. If you`ll accept at least one of my suggestions, it will be a success for me.

Perhaps you could write a brief summary of the 1806 campaign against Naples, and the continuing Neapolitan/Sicilian conflicts down to 1814, for inclusion in the article? I'd be happy to copyedit. john k 14:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course I can. I am here to help. Wait a moment.

Note that I was speaking about what should take precedence, not what should and should not be included. The events that we are speaking about were not relevant or decisive to the larger campaigns.UberCryxic

There was a whole front of the war involving Naples and Sicily between 1805 and 1814. It was not as intense or as important as the fighting in the peninsula, but it seems to me it's well worth a brief paragraph. We mention Walcheren and Copenhagen, which were not particularly relevant or decisive to the larger campaigns. We mention the Russo-Finnish War of 1808-1809, which similarly was not particularly relevant or decisive to the larger campaigns. We mention the indecisive fighting in northern Italy in 1805. An overview article should provide an overview of all significant fronts of the conflict, so that people can get links to more detailed articles. john k 17:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Please also give us sources if it's something very specific.UberCryxic 16:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] THE WAR AGAINST NAPLES

November 20, 1805: Naples declares war on France December 27, 1805: Napoleon declares decayed the Bourbon Dynasty. January 23, 1806: king Ferdinand IV moves from Naples to Palermo by the vessel "Archimede" (the most powerful Italian war ship of that time) February 14, 1806: the French (gen. Paronmeaux) take Naples. March 9, 1806: battle of Campotenese - 10,000 French (Gen. Reynier) defeat 15,000 Neapolitans (Gen. Damas). July: 3,200 French attack Amantea, defended by Colonel Rodolfo Mirabelli with a few of houndreds men, but supported by the people. Amantea resists until February 7, 1807. 1806 and 1807: British-Neapolitan attacks against Calabria. 1808 Troops of the usurper (Murat) take Capri, defended by the British. Oct. 8, 1808: sea battle between 2 frigates of the usurper ("Cerere","Fama") against 2 frigates of the legitimate government ("Minerva","Sirena"). Typical Italian destiny to end into a civil war! - 1809 and 1810: attack of the usurper (Murat) against Sicily. 1810-1811: the Italian guerrilla against Napoleon (in North and in South Italy) ends.

[edit] Combatants Listed

Perhaps we should consider dropping all the individual German states/kingdoms/duchies listed in the combatants block, and just simply list Confederation of the Rhine?

[edit] Commanders and vandals

please, this is not a venue for folks with an agenda, except the agenda of fairness - Napoleon did not command everything for pete's sake! whoever deleted the commanders added to France's side - why not consider the merits of the commanders instead of just deleting what is inconvenient to your view -Sean

[edit] Why is Alexander Suvorov in Commanders list?

The Napoleonic Wars were from 1803/05(authorities differ) to 1815, Alexander Suvorov, died in 1800, why is he in commanders list? --Bryson 00:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Should not be. If we're strictly talking about the Napoleonic Wars (1805-1815), Suvorov and Desaix do not belong.UberCryxic 19:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

  • I removed Suvorov and Desaix from commanders list. --Bryson 23:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are we setting 1805 as the "official" beginning? I've always seen the resumption of Anglo-French naval war in 1803 as the beginning of the "Napoleonic Wars," which are decidedly plural. john k 05:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The commanders list, btw, is utterly odd. Bernadotte is on it on both sides, but without any indication that "Jean Baptiste Bernadotte" is the same man as "Karl XIV Johan of Sweden", while others who fought on different sides at different points of the conflict - the King of Saxony, for instance, or Schwarzenberg, who participated in the invasion of Russia - are only listed once. What are the criteria here? I'd suggest that we not have commanders listings for something as complicated as the Napoleonic Wars. Similarly, I'd suggest that the participants listing is also problematic. Bavaria, Saxony, Spain, Russia, Austria, and Naples fought on both sides. Denmark was certainly not a "client state" of France in the same way that the states under Napoleon's relations or the Confederation of the Rhine were. The Ottoman Empire was never on the allied side in any real way. It went to war with Russia in 1806 at Napoleon's urging. It participated in the War of the Second Coalition on the allied side, but that was earlier. I think it might be best to list "France and allies" as one side, and "Britain and an ever-changing coalition of continental powers, often including at least one of Prussia, Austria, or Russia" on the other. john k 05:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Denmark-Norway- Denmark-Norway or as it should be called Kingdom of Denmark, which IIRC during the Napoleonic Wars, included Norway, Schleswig, and Holstein. Should be removed from combatants list, since her Alliance with France was defensive, and never sent any troops to France not even in 1812.--Bryson 17:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I disagree. I think Denmark-Norway should still be in the combatants list. Denmark-Norway threw itself completely behind the cause of Napoleon in 1807. Considering its dearth of military resources, Denmark-Norway did what it could to support Napoleon. In 1813, the Danish Auxiliary Corps participated in campaigns, both offensive and defensive, in northern Germany alongside the French Army Corps under the command of Marshal Davout. Boreanesia 18:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First and second coalition?

Why are first and second coalition wars in article? They were French Revolutionary Wars, napoleonic wars started with 3rd coalition.--Staberinde 19:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Both the first and second coalition should be removed from article. Perhaps replaced with brief background text on the context of the French Revolutionary Wars in the Napoleonic Wars. --Bryson 20:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. There have been sufficient time but no counter-arguments raised. Go ahead. The Gomm 23:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battle Box Location : Río de la Plata?

The Napoleonic Wars were also fought in South America?--Bryson 00:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep. – Albrecht 03:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

(By the way, I noticed you re-inserted Joey and Louey Bonaparte in the list of commanders. Normally I'd be all for inclusion, but I'm forced to wonder: do these two princelings really belong in this list? I think a lot of Napoleon's marshals should be listed only because they were giants in their talent and accomplishments, easily rivalling the best Allied commanders and fighting some of the most important battles in modern history. But when the list is this long, I think we can afford to spare two mediocrities who barely even set foot on a battlefield, don't you? Albrecht 04:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC))

  • They were rulers, Joseph, King of Naples later Spain and Louis King of Holland. Louis was with Napoleon in Egypt. Joseph did command forces in Spain. I think the battle box should have at least a two relatives (there are more I could have added) to show Napoleon’s ‘dynasty’. There were 26 Marshals of France we can’t list them all, maybe just the 'key' ones and a link to the complete list in the main article on Marshals of France? --Bryson 04:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Joseph commanded forces in Spain. It seems to me that only those in independent command should be listed. Louis Bonaparte never had any significant independent command. Joseph sort of did, so I've left him on. The obvious relation other than Joseph to list is Eugene, who did have independent command in Italy, and who commanded a wing of the grand army in 1812. Jerome, who also commanded an independent wing, would be a better choice than Louis, as also Murat, who was, of course, a military commander before he was a relative. (Bernadotte, already listed on the allied side, might also be considered an extended Bonaparte relation, through his marriage to Joseph's wife's sister). john k 18:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Commanders Box

I looked over the article about 2-3 weeks ago and noticed that the only French commmander listed was Napoleon and a French admiral of low worth; that was ridiculous so I added some commanders on the French side. I toyed here and there with commanders and flags etc., but it got out of control! Forgive me.

But my mission was accomplished (getting French and other Napoleonic state's commanders listed)!

I like the changes that were made recently. However, ironically now, I think there are too many French commanders listed. I think we should keep Joseph and Louis Bonaparte (as discussed above) and aside from Napoleon and his brothers, only list 3-4 trully noteworthy French commanders (Davout, Massena, Moreau, and Ney have my vote); drop the other names - that road has no end as we can't list the 20-something marshals of France under Bonaparte. Just add that handy "and others' for link to an article list of Bonaparte's Marshals. What are your thoughts folks? -Sean, 11/29/06

  • Sounds good to me; however, I think we should keep one more Marshal, Marshal Murat. Murat was King of Naples, Napoleon’s brother in-law and had fought with Napoleon since the ‘Whiff of Grapeshot.’--Bryson 16:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
If Nelson is in infobox then french leader at trafalgar Pierre-Charles Villeneuve should be also added(and if he doesnt fit then we should also remove nelson). Also why is Louis Bonaparte in commanders list, as far as i know he wasn't importnant commander(Joseph Bonaparte's importnance could be also disputed)?--Staberinde 17:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I think Louis and Joseph should stay for reasons stated above. Yes, Villeneuve should be added.--Bryson 17:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Commanders box is about military commanders not about rulers. Otherwise we would have russian, prussian and austrian monarchs also in the list. Louis clearly doesnt belong to infobox and probably Joseph is also not very importnant leader. Probably they both should be replaced with some more importnant commanders(Soult and Lannes for example)--Staberinde 17:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the tendency to list politicians and statesmen sprung up with 20th-century wars, in which many heads of government had ceremonial (Roosevelt, Commander-in-Chief) or actual (Churchill, Minister of Defence; Stalin, Generalisimo) military functions. Frankly, I think the trend is absurd and I hold my sides laughing whenever I see George Bush and Tony Blair listed as "Military Commanders." Like I said, when you look at the collection of geniuses and heroes dominating Europe during this period, it seems kind of silly to see Joey Bonaparte crowding the list. The Bonaparte dynasty can be explained in the article text.
(By the way, I like the changes you've made, Bryson, but the guideline is to use simply names, not ranks, in the Infobox) Albrecht 17:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Heads of state have always had ceremonial military functions. Note how monarchs have normally dress since the Napoleonic period. I agree that this is silly. john k 18:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
First -Alexander I should be listed on the Russian side, he did indeed command the Russian forces at Austerlitz! Secondly, can we please list the British names as Arthur Wellesley and Horatio Nelson - not the pretentious sounding Duke of Wellington and Lord Nelson. If you are going to list titles for names then you could do this on the French side as well where many of the Marshals were given the title of Duke - I just want consistency please, you're going to note that Wellesley was given the title Duke but omit that Napoleon was an Emperor??!!-CONSISTENCY! And actually can we establish some criteria of what gets a commander listed?????? If they fought in a decisive battle of the Napoleonic Wars? If they acheived multiple decisive victories????? what is the criteria??? Sean 12/01/06
Napoleon's title in commanders box. Do we really need to add the title 'King of Italy', this might be confusing to have two titles. Maybe just keep it at one title, 'Emperor of the French'? --Bryson 00:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I suppose we could leave out that he was King of Italy, if you think it's good to omit facts in an Encyclopedic article, but that was a title that he was very often refered by - perhaps much to do with his Genovese extraction. (He was also Protector of the Rhine and Mediator of the Swiss). Sean 12/02/06
The commanders box is a mess, we don't need more than one title per person. Also do people really know who these people were? For example Suvorov and Desaix died in 1800, before the Napoleonic Wars even started.--Bryson 13:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
What the Christ? I'm restoring my last version, now, and will mercilessly revert any edits leading us back to this mess. Albrecht 15:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I moved infobox back to john k version which was there before that massive editing started.--Staberinde 21:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Back to Politicians: By limiting commanders of war boxes to military commanders, are we saying that wars are purely military events? Does taxation and production play a part also? If so, then shouldn't the political masters be the key commanders listed in WAR boxes, as military commanders are listed in BATTLE boxes? The Gomm 23:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
No, we're saying that a summary field titled "Commanders" should list, you guessed it, commanders. If any given politicians introduced measures important to the conduct of military operations, then not to worry, they will be discussed in the article text. I think these problems keep cropping up because we forget that the boxes are there to feature as much key information as is practical, not as much information as we can. Albrecht 00:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we could have a box for political leaders, and a separate one for military commanders? As it stands, the box says "commanders," not "leaders." BTW, in terms of titles, bonapartist titles are almost never used to refer to their holders. It is incredibly pretentious to call Davout the Duke of Auerstadt, or Masséna the Duke of Rivoli. British peerage titles, or German titles, on the other hand, are in standard usage, and how these people are normally referred. john k 23:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Also, all the three northern monarchs commanded troops, theoretically. None of them was in practical command. Kutuzov was the real commander at Austerlitz, and Schwarzenberg really led the army the three kings marched with in 1813, notably. john k 23:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I take exception with your assertion that Kutuzov was primarily in command at Austerlitz. From what I have gathered Alexander had command until he relinquished it himself after the bumbling - can you give me a source on your assertion? Secondly, why is it prefereable to use the title for British and German commanders, but not for Napoleon as Emperor of the French??- if your argument is - what they are most often refered by then wouldn't it then be correct to say the Napoleon should be listed as Napoleon I instead of Napoleon Bonaparte - titles are pretentious when used by Frenchmen, but not when used by Englishmen?? wow, that's quite another assertion you have - how about some consistency please - either Napoleon I and Duke of Wellington or Napoleon Bonaparte and Arthur Wellesley. Titles are pretentious, no matter how you would like to spin it. Maybe that's the American in me. Sean —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.181.217.123 (talk) 21:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
Napoleon I is fine with me. But "Joachim Napoleon" instead of "Joachim Murat" would be ridiculous. So would "The Duke of Auerstadt" rather than "Louis Noclas Davout". It is not pretentious to call people the way they are known. Wellington is called "Wellington," not "Wellesley" - this is how he is known. It is not pretentious to call him this, it's just his name (after 1809). john k 18:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Whitby Incident

Does anyone know whether The Whitby Incident is true or not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.231.61.249 (talk) 23:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

I highly doubt it is true.--Bryson 23:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a garbled version of the "Hartlepool Monkey Hangers" myth. Brickie 13:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Combatants

Might it not be simpler to just list combatants based on the signatories of the Treaty of Paris? That would mean just France on the one side (we could have an "and satellites" in addition to this, to indicate the changing line-ups of Napoleonic satellites), and Britain, Austria, Prussia, Russia, Sweden, Spain, and Portugal on the other. There were obviously more states involved, but most of them fought on both sides (as did Spain, Austria, Russia, and Prussia), and to try to do a full list of states on both sides would be counter-productive. john k 23:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have added Denmark-Norway on the list of combatants on Napoleon's side. I was surprised not to see it on the list since it was steadfastly loyal towards Napoleon throughout the entire conflict. Boreanesia 17:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Except when it was neutral until the British attacked it in 1807. Did it declare war on Austria in 1809? I still think the Treaty of Paris list makes the most sense. john k 15:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caption on Arcole Pic

"Napoleon often led his troops from the front, inspiring great morale. This earned him the nickname 'Little Corporal'"


Napoleon did not get this nickname at Arcole, rather from the Battle of Lodi, for sighting cannons, usually a corporal’s task. --Bryson 22:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

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