Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (chemistry)

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I've been having trouble figuring out what to do with Trisodium phosphate and Sodium phosphate. These both refer to the same chemical. It seems like Trisodium phosphate is the name commercially used for selling the chemical as a cleaning chemical. Sodium phosphate is the name used on food ingredients lists, etc., and I *think* is the "systematic" chemical name, but I'm pretty rusty on my chemistry. Does anyone have any suggestions? I assume that we want one article with a redirect, rather than two separate articles on the two uses, but I could be wrong. -- Creidieki 19:29, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I took a look at the IUPAC rules as listed in my CRC Handbook of Chem & Physics, and it looks like you can do either sodium phosphate or trisodium phosphate. Personally I prefer sodium phosphate for Na3PO4, but IUPAC actually gives you a choice. One confusing notation in widespread use is "Sodium phosphate tribasic" (for Na3PO4), and sodium phosphate dibasic (for Na2HPO4) etc. I think we just need to choose one of the two IUPAC names and have a redirect from any other names, and include links to the hydrogen and dihydrogen phosphate salts. We should also be consistent between the sodium and the potassium phosphates in whatever we use. Walkerma 20:11, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A non-IUPAC solution may be to use sodium phosphate as Na₃PO₄, sodium hydrogenphosphate as Na₂HPO₄ and sodium dihydrogenphosphate as NaH₂PO₄. I learnt it this way to learn acidic salts, and I think this should be a convention. The same could apply for other acid salts like sodium hydrogencarbonate (NaHCO₃). -x42bn6 06:52, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

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I have copied the relevant sections from Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Style guidelines here, as it seems to cover the discussion that went before. All comments are more than welcome! Physchim62 7 July 2005 10:56 (UTC)

• As known, this is very good work. If the Chemicals Style Guidelines has now reached publication worthiness, why not put all of it here? This is where is has been targeted for anyhow, and now we can continue the discussion here, out in the open instead of only within the Chemicals wikiproject. Wim van Dorst July 7, 2005 19:23 (UTC).

I think it is fine as is. I will start nitpicking once we have adopted it as official policy! Let's not forget though, from our discussion on this topic, there is MUCH more to writing articles than naming conventions, we will probably need to write a more comprehensive guide at some point. That IMHO should not get mixed up in the naming page, general style is a separate issue. In the meantime, thanks to PC for navigating us through the minefield that is chemical nomenclature and giving us a clear, balanced guide to naming, that all of us opinionated, stubborn chemists will try to ignore! Seriously, though PC has taught me a lot. Thanks again, Walkerma 7 July 2005 20:23 (UTC)

To answer Wim's point, I do not think that the rest of the style guidelines have reached a point where they are useful to those outside the WP:Chem—they are still a work-in-progress. However, the title section seemed to have a good enough consensus to be presented to the non-initiated. Physchim62 8 July 2005 10:08 (UTC)

[edit] References to isotopes

While tidying NMR spectroscopy, Nuclear magnetic resonance, and Phosphorus, I noticed that sometimes we have e.g. ³¹P and sometimes we have e.g. Phosphorous-31. It seems like the latter would be clearer to non-chemists, and easier to link to the article on the element, but also a bit clumsy to use repeatedly. I was also thinking there should be something indicating "this is the isotope of Phosphorous that has an atomic mass of 31" to the novice reader, though I'm not sure whether that should be in the element's article, in some footnote, or someplace else. I thought this would be a good place to get some feedback on that and perhaps establish a working standard. -- Beland 04:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Systematic names

Are we meant to be using systematic names all the time except for the exceptions named on this page, or are we meant to use whatever we feel best? --PhiJ 09:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

We can't have a policy which says "use systematic names all the time" because systematic names are not uniquely defined. This page offers some guidelines on the basis of the titles of existing articles on chemicals; read it, then use whatever you feel best. If you want advice about a specific chemical, you can always ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chemicals. Physchim62 (talk) 09:31, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

there already: article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize

[edit] Sulfur, cesium, aluminum. The idea of international standards for spelling is nonsense

Here is what the page currently says: Element names Traditionally, the names of three elements have been spelt differently in US and British English. With the onset of computer searching of databases it became necessary to standardize these spellings as follows:^[1]

COMMENT: To employ a Britishism: bollocks. The reference given to the 1990 IUPAC redbook, as the WP:V, is 3 years out of date. Since 1993 IUPAC has recognized cesium and aluminum as alternate names, which means you can use what you like. Sulphur (vs. sulfur) isn't even listed as a varient any more in IUPAC tables: [2]

So. What the page MEANS to say is: With the onset of computer searching of databases it became necessary to try to convince others of the standardization of these spellings as the British have spelt them, since it has been becomming rapidly apparent that most of the chemical world uses other spellings than what the British have traditionally learnt, oh my. Which indeed any search will find the English science world does, if one does a simple Google Test for any of these terms and counts hits.

So how about we be honest? IUPAC doesn't care. Really, it doesn't. Thus, THERE IS NO INTERNATIONAL STANDARD. That's a fiction gotten up to get Wikipedia to use British English here, where the American variant is more common in the English-speaking scientific world. So how about we simply switch to what's most commonly used? I'm willing to do it by any database hit test you like. Sight unseen. And winner take all. Steve 00:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

We don't decide naming based on Google searches, though they may be used as an argument when two names are both considered OK (such as titanium tetrachloride vs. titanium(IV) chloride), which I gather is your case here. Demographics will always favor an American spelling, so your Google result is not surprising. In effect your argument becomes, "Wikipedia should switch to all-American spelling" which is not likely to go down well! Checking your 1993 reference does indeed indicate that cesium is acceptable as an "option," as is aluminum. The word "option" does not (to my mind) indicate that IUPAC now prefers these spellings. Rather, it indicates to me that caesium and aluminium are still the official names, but IUPAC has to accept the fact that the ACS has stubbornly refused to switch over to those names (unlike the RSC, which switched over from sulphur to sulfur). We prefer to standardize on one name per element, and I'd rather go with the official IUPAC main name which is also standard right across Wikipedia, rather than the optional name. For everything else, there are redirects. Walkerma 04:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree with Walkerma. The Brits accepted the American spelling for sulfur but the Americans did not accept the IUPAC decision for British spelling of aluminium and caesium. Lets leave it as IUPAC decided in 1990. --Bduke 05:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Why would we want to leave it as somebody decided it 16 years ago? The world moves on, folks. There's a hilarious story on the web about a British chem factory where the pipes are still labeled OOV and MA (oil of vitriol and muriatic acid). Get over it. The only thing worse than having the majority users of a language decide on convention, is having the MINORITY users decide on convention. Sorry, but you getting two minority words for giving up one, when the rest of the world's active chemists don't agree with you, is completely narcissistic and ridiculous.

This is not an America vs. everybody thing. It it was, I'd be arguing against the metric system (I'm not). Will we ever be in a position where the majority of the world's users of scientific English *aren't* Americans? I have no doubt that day will come. Should *Americans* when that day comes bow to *majority* standards in English science language? Sure. Right now the language of world air traffic control is bad English. We put up with it. And so must you.

Finally, please give up the notion that there's any such thing as an "IUPAC standard main name" for elements. That's still your imagination working overtime. Again, get over it. Both uses are acceptable, and the majority of chemists ought to decide which they want. Steve 05:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

We are already in a position where the majority of the world's users of scientific English aren't Americans. English is the language of science. Of course for the majority, english is now not their first language. This is not a question of the Brits and American's trading. It was a decision taken by IUPAC which has a majority of members who are neither American or British. Unfortunately the US has a record of ignoring IUPAC while other countries accept its recommendations. A good example is the wide use of kcal/mol in ACS and AIP journals, while all European journals strongly discourage that use and often insist on the correct SI unit of kJ/mol. --Bduke 08:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Steve, you're better off not shouting so loudly about things which you do not know about. The current list of element names in English is here: it dates from 2004, not 1990. The final version is not available online, but was published in 2005 under ISBN 0854044388 by the Royal Society of Chemistry. Now can anyone find a reference to the quote from a US Nobel Prize winner: "They can make me write it [aluminium], but they can't make me say it". Physchim62 (talk) 08:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks like they've backed off a bit from 1993 where they put both names in the main text. Here they merely use a superscript letter and footer note to remark in each case that an "alternate spelling is commonly used." Not an alternate unapproved or unpreferred spelling. Your Nobelist (good luck finding the quote) would in any case be wrong-- they not only can't make him spell it "aluminum," but they don't try to. If IUPAC notes there's a common alternate spelling, you're saying either one is fine. Note they are not shy about saying that D and T are "commonly used" for hydrogen isotopes, but that ²H and ³H are "preferred." They don't do that with aluminum and cesium; therefore, there they have no preferred spelling. Further, they are being disingenuous-- in each case (aluminum and cesium) the "alternate spelling is commonly used," as they say; in fact in each case it's MORE commonly used in the literature. IUPAC should note that.

In any case, my point still stands. Since IUPAC has no formal stand that one spelling is correct or preferred, the text of th Wiki for which this is the talk page, as it stands, is wrong. Are you going to fix it, or should I? Steve 16:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

They're not backing off, it is clear that aluminium and caesium (and sulfur) are preferred, that's why they're listed in the table of preferred names. The 1993 document also lists ferrum for iron, natrium for sodium, etc, but nobody is suggesting we go back to speaking Latin. If you try to change this long-standing guideline, you will be reverted. Point. --Physchim62 (talk) 15:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)