Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (categories)/Archive 7

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"United States" or "U.S." in Category titles

NOTE: Copied from the Village pump discussion Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#.22United_States.22_or_.22U.S..22_in_Category_titles Semiconscious · talk 01:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I've proposed changing the category title Category:United_States presidential candidates to Category:U.S. presidential candidates (see proposal here). It looks like there's an opinion on the "Categories for deletion" page against changing. That's fine with me. But we need some consistency.

What I'm looking for is a consistent standard for Category titles when the name of the country starts the title. This isn't about Articles, Templates, or content (although it's not unrelated). If you look at Category:U.S. presidential elections you'll see both used.

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) says to use "United States" when in a list of countries or when using "…of the United States" or "…in the United States." But what I'm talking about is when "United States" starts the category name, such as Category:United States presidential candidates, or the like. Surf around near Category:United States presidential candidates and see what I mean.

—Mark Adler (markles) 13:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

This debate is done and dusted. Abbreviations are deprecated and converting U.S. to United States in category names is one of the speedy correction criteria on categories for deletion.
There is no reason to have abbreviations in article, category, etc. titles. Avoiding ambiguity is the goal of an encyclopedia, and claiming "everyone knows what 'US' means" (which you are not necessarily doing, but would be the only rational counterargument) is americocentric. I could just as easily say "everyone should understand 'CAR' is the Central African Republic. Semiconscious · talk 10:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Semiconscious; this has been clearly hammered out and established already, and the example category is clearly an artifact. Avoid abbreviations. siafu 21:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Semiconscious too. Also note, if you put Category:U.S. presidential elections into a notional Category:Presidential elections by country it immediately becomes part of a list of Presedential elections by country, therefore it should not be abbreviated. Categories are just a technical way of displaying lists. Steve block talk 21:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

policy or guideline

As Radiant! points out, most sub-naming conventions are tagged with template:guideline rather than template:policy. Why should this one be different? The answer is that this one includes both guidelines (for example, the "General naming conventions" section) and procedural instructions, specifically the first paragraph in the "Categories by country" section which elevates conformance to the list of "by country" conventions to the list of speedy rename criteria and specifies how the list of conventions are maintained. The speedy rename criteria is included in Wikipedia:Category deletion policy (which is marked with template:policy), although the list of "by country" conventions is not included there. I'd be OK with moving (all) the policy related information elsewhere and reducing this page to a naming guidelines page, but without doing that I'm reluctant to simply tag this as a guideline. -- Rick Block (talk) 15:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I was going to make the same remark. I'm fairly familiar with every Wikipedia policy, and this is probably the "softest" one. It is simply a collection of conventions and guidelines. I don't see how you could even give someone a slap on the list for violating anything here, which is not true for, say, Bots, No open proxies, Three revert rule, Username or Banning policy. Rick, I suggest you make the change you mention. Stevage 21:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Trade unions

I picked up on the "Nationality x" vs. "in country" issue recently while expanding Category:Trade unions by country. I've held off creating more cats because I'd like to see them migrated to the in country format. I left a note at WikiProject Organized Labour, but it is a fairly small project still, and there has been no comment on the issue. Personally, I don't think there will be any objection to making this move, but perhaps people here have more experience in judging that. I'm willing to do the work on the change over, but would appreciate help in ensuring the proper steps are followed at CfD. (As a side note, I think it should be "in country", not "of country" because of the international nature of some unions.)--Bookandcoffee 22:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd support that. Of course, I've long wanted to depopulate all the "nationality x"-based categories that aren't specifically part of "by nationality" categorization trees. The Tom 03:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I put this up at CfD, Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 March 7#Category:Canadian trade unions to Category:Trade unions in Canada. Comments would be appreciated. --Bookandcoffee 18:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Trade unions by country (part 2)

A previous discussion here [1] was unable to reach a consensus on converting to Category:Trade unions in **** from Category:****ian trade unions. Further discussion has been started at WikiProject Organized Labour. Comments and opinions are welcome. --Bookandcoffee 22:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Political office-holders

I've tried my best to outline the rule of thumb that's evolved for the various political office-holder categories over successive CfDs and added it to the page, explaining why some categories take "in" and some "of". That said, I realize that sticking this up here out of the blue might give it a false sense of legitimacy, so I'd welcome any comments or criticism before it gets entrenched into the general body of rules. The Tom 00:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Family categories?

Two recent discussions have taken place at CFD, and perhaps we might want to codify the categorization based on them if there is enough precedent:

It seems that royal dynasties are going with Category:Dynastyname (ie Category:Bonaparte) while political family names are going with Category:Familyname family (ie Category:Roosevelt family, being converted from Category:Roosevelt atm).

Thoughts? --Syrthiss 16:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation subcategories

Quite a few disambiguation subcategories have popped up in recent history - but their naming is all over the place (the category is a self reference and for maintenance). We had a discussion at Wikipedia:Disambiguation to decide on a new naming convention.

The result was to change names like:

to

  • Category:Disambiguation (interstate highways) , and
  • Category:Disambiguation (three-letter acronyms) respectively.

I tried to introduce the new naming convention at Category talk:Tropical cyclone disambiguation but someone said it "doesn't meet requirements of naming conventions for categories". How to I get the new naming convention approved?--Commander Keane 22:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The "result" was contested, had insufficient discussion, and is contrary to previous consensus. It's not a matter of getting them approved, as they simply don't meet the guidelines for naming categories.
  • Category:Lists of Interstate Highways sharing the same title was chosen to match other existing categories. It begins with "Lists of ..." because every page in it is itself a list; in this case, of "Interstate highways" (plural as required by this guideline). While "... sharing the same title" may not be my first choice, the highways folks preferred that to "ambiguous Interstate highways", as the highways themselves are not ambiguous.
  • Category:Ambiguous three-letter acronyms is an old category in the process of being emptied, replaced (after CfR Feb 20) by Category:Lists of three-character combinations. Again, "Lists of ..." as all the pages are lists, and "three-character combinations" include both letters and numbers, not merely acronyms. The formal list of acronyms is not appropriate as a category: "comprehensive lists ... which must include all items regardless of whether an article already exists for them, should not be replaced by categories." Those are maintained at the TLA lists.
--William Allen Simpson 07:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Natural features

Currently Natural features are named "of country". I'm proposing that this be changed to "in country", with the exception of National parks and protected areas, which should remain "of country".

Country categories on Wikipedia are used in the sense of a country being a state. These categories stem from list of countries, which is comprised of "internationally recognized and generally unrecognized independent states", as well as "inhabited dependent territories, as well as areas of special sovereignty." Using these parameters for a country, something can only be "of" that country if it is of the state. Such as Category:Militaries by country (a branch of the government), Category:Companies by country (an organization which must be granted a corporate charter designed by the government), or Category:Heads of state by country (a position of office designated by the government). Each of these examples all stem from the government itself, and so their categories by country are named "of country" on Wikipedia.

Natural features however almost always pre-date the formation of any country, and do not stem in any way from a government. Some infact cross or have multiple state borders, such as the Amazon River, the Caspian Sea, or the Columbia Mountains. These natural entities are not "of" a country, they are instead in a country, or in more than one country. Moreover, in many cases natural entities have outlasted countries, such as Category:Rivers of Czechoslovakia. Changing the naming convention of Natural features to "in country" instead of "of country" is the most appropriate wording to use.

Lastly, man-made entities that fall under the subject of natural features should remain with the wording "of country", such as National parks and protected areas. This is appropriate given the "of country" naming of government-dependent entities such as companies. National parks, protected areas, and companies all require the legal approval of a government for their existance, and so are rightfully "of" that country given their creation and dependance on that country.

As an aside, I just noticed there is no entry on Wikipedia for natural feature or natural features. It looks like landform has the same meaning. Perhaps this would be a better subject title?

I welcome thoughts and comments about this proposal. Kurieeto 23:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm in broad agreement. For what it's worth, I'd say there's a bit of intentional ambiguity on "country," which can ambiguously either refer to stuff linked to state apparatuses (ie Category:Naval ships by country), which aren't necessarily spatial, or stuff within territorial divisions of the earth (ie Category:Cathedrals by country). Both of those can be contrasted with the non-spatial non-state-linked categories which are tied to "by nationality" (cultural stuff, individual people, etc.) While I don't think an ironclad "territorial = x in y; state-linked = x of y" rule that applies to all categories is in our best interest, in this particular case there's some conceptual clarity to be gained in moving to "in"s with the exception of the protected areas. As for landform terminology... while it seems a bit odd to think of a river as a landform, the article seems to make it clear that that's the accepted geographical word, so why not. The Tom 05:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I've renamed Natural features to Landforms on the main page here. I think the next step is to setup Category:Landforms by country categories, which would fall between Category:Geography by country and say Category:Rivers by country. I think there should also be a parent cat of Landforms by country, like Landforms by region, to accomodate Antarctica or Mars or other entities. Kurieeto 12:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Organizations

I'd also like Category:Organizations by country to change from "Nationality x" to "of country". Organizations should be treated as Companies are, as they both require a charter from the government as a corporation, non-profit corporation, or charitable organization. Comments welcomed. Kurieeto 23:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm in strong agreement. Those "Nationality x" categories that are under "by country" are anomalous and need to be dispersed one way or the other. Going to "of country" makes the most sense in the case of Category:Organizations by country and Category:Environmental organizations by country. The Tom 05:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
In regard to Nationality x categories I've put up a proposal at CFD here for the renaming of Youth wings of political parties by country categories, and another one here for the renaming of Aircraft manufacturing companies by country categories. Kurieeto 11:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Sadly enough, I'm not seeing traction on the media categories over at CFD. They're probably the only ones that ought to go the other way, ie, keep the nationality. The Tom 18:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Actors and Actresses!

As I said here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_April_17#Category:Iranian_actresses_to_Category:Iranian_actors

Ok, let me be clearer, if somebody want to know how many Iranian, American, Japanese, Indian blah blah blah, actresses are in Wikipedia, how he\she can find out such information? I've just said, having these two words in English, is a very good opportunity, Wikipedia should be most easiest to use as well as most reliable\largest encylopedia in history, just say me how many actors and actresses are stated in wikipedia, you don't know ! and this is another problem guys, for God's sake believe SOLID materials like Wiki's current laws are fragile, not today but someday they will kill wikipedia, Mammuts were so big and unflexible so they died but ants were tiny but flexible and they are alive!. We NEED such classifications, because we can't say our readers how to search or use wiki, we can predict all of their actions and we have to do most we can, I will start another discussion about wiki laws, let go there and continue our discussion there, ok?Sasanjan 22:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

we have to separate Actresses from Actors.Sasanjan 14:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Acting is the same job, involving the same activities, whether carried out by a man or a woman. We don't generally separate other professions by gender. You've not made any argument as to why actors should be a special case. The usefulness of being able to count male and female actors separately would be the only gain I can see from the suggestion you're making; I'm not sure why that is a particularly useful thing to know. Valiantis 13:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Just for a minute think, this is your opinion, so what about other wiki visitors, somebody may wanna know how many female actors are available in Wikipedia, what to done then?Sasanjan 15:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Erm, yes. This is my opinion. What else would you expect me to post? If anyone else feels strongly enough on this issue, no doubt they will post comments here. If you feel that the current policy on naming conventions should be changed, you might like to make a specific proposal as is described in the opening paragraphs of Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Valiantis 13:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
YES?! ... we're talking about WIKIPEDIA ! not about our favourites !!! I don't like any kind of change anywhere ! I like my habbits, because I'm Iranian, I hate any change ! BUT (a big BUT) I'm here to say what's the best way of classifying information! only because of visitors!!! nothing else! Sasanjan 06:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
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