Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (UK stations)

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Comments concerning naming convention on British stations.

Oppose, and comment. Any station, regardless of which mode of transport it serve should be named X Station, with capitalised s. This is because the articles do not simply refer to the station of X town/city but the the building called X Station. Adding which network or mode of transport that particular location is fairly confusing and not need as the mode of transport each location serves is described in the article itself. this goes in the same direction to my opposition to adding railway to all station articles. —Captain scarlet 15:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment - I believe the convention you propose is currently used for two stations (Birmingham New Street Station and Derby Midland Station, both with current proposals to rename), while there are upwards of 1,000 in the form ...railway station or ...station. Were your proposal to be adopted, a vast number of articles would need to be move, while the convention proposed on the project page essentially states the status quo. Warofdreams talk 01:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Support the proposed convention. David Arthur 17:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment - I think a standard should be set for stations not named after their respective cities... especially the London ones. Victoria station (London) should simply be London Victoria, and the like. The station names should reflect their official name on the signs at that station. DJR (Talk) 20:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - The official name of the station should normally be used, except where this would be ambiguous. If there is any doubt about what the official name is, the name given on the station platforms should be used. - for the great majority of stations, this would simply be the name of the town or city, without any "station" or "railway station" suffixes. -- Arwel (talk) 21:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry - I meant the actual body of the name - I have no view on the "station" vs "railway station" ending - that's pretty much irrelevant. The main substance is the actual name, which should be that displayed on station platforms. This means that London termini will almost all begin with "London blah station" rather than "blah station (London)". DJR (Talk) 21:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I should have been more clear about the official name bit, I meant that the article name should be "Official name + railway station" or "Official name + DLR station" etc. Thryduulf@

Support the proposed convention (particularly with Thryduulf's clarification). Warofdreams talk 01:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment. Warofdreams, I cannot see how you can agree with Thryduulf's proposed naming convention since it goes against your own proposition of renaming most British stations' articles. If this this convention is adopted your proposal for renaming Sheffield Midland Station's article would not happen. Captain scarlet 09:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - the main thing for me is to see some consitent policy, preferably one which doesn't require a huge number of articles to be moved. If Thryduulf's proposal is approved, I'm happy to remove the joint rail-tram stations from the proposed move. Warofdreams talk 23:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, ok fair dooes, my opinion is that i do not believe in consistency, it makes articles bland and uninsteresting and if possible the style of any article's main contributor should reflect on the article, mùaking it interesting. If you are ok with removing joint stations from the move, i might just be able to change my vote to approve. It probably will be approved anyway, but, not wishing to congratulate myself, i am the main contributor to a fair amuntof station articles and I'd to be able to follow the convention rather than ignoring it, i hope you can appreciate that. Captain scarlet 23:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment, for clarity all that I am proposing here is standardisation of the article names, not the article content. Imho the perfect article has a consistent title, the rail line info box, the station template(s) and a large amount of good, individual text in the body about the station - e.g. its history, notable things that have happened there, why it is special, etc. I wouldn't mind rolling out the london-stations infobox nationally, to supplement the article body text, but that is a completely separate discussion. Thryduulf 00:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The title of an article is just as much the article as its content, it changes the way articles are called and searched/(re)directed. This new convention might not literally change what article contain but will change what they are. That is why I am currently strongly opposing any kind of standardisation of any kind. I am open to important changes, as offered by Warofdreams. —Captain scarlet 00:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. The purpose of naming conventions and standardised naming is so that articles can be predictably linked to. This is particuarly useful for the rail-line boxes. I strongly disagree with "article is as much part of the article as the content is" - I cannot improve on Shakespeare's phrasing "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Thryduulf 00:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I knew you'd say something like that... That is why there are categories, all stations are in a way or another present in categories (that's if Warofdreams doesn't stop removing them)(that's several categories per article entry). That's why categories are so brilliant. I stand by my previous comment. Captain scarlet 07:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Support totally. Even though it may be called "x Station" in railway literature, this is a general encyclopedia so we need to add "railway" to clarify. I was at East Croydon today and noted that the station is just labelled "East Croydon". Please sirs, what if the railway company never called it a station - eg. Bingham Road halt? Glad to see "tram stop" is now proposed and that they are not automatically notable. -- RHaworth 10:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment I have not only mentionned railway literature but British Rail naming convention. This is an encyclopedia and it must use things names for people to know what we're on about. I'm not going to call a cat a dog or a dog a cat just to please you because you and your mates call it the other way round. If your impose your naming I will not adopt it, end of. I will call stations articles using their proper name, not your imaginary names. I believe it is time to end this since it's been something like two weeks since this charade is perpetrated where there is no debate and this scheme will be put forward anyway. I do sincerily hope that i will have no further dealings with you two gentlemen and I will not accept any movings if our paths were to meet. Regards, Captain scarlet 11:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment. I hate to throw fuel on the fire, but surely standard wikipedia conventions could be used with stations. That is to use the common name unless that is already taken by something else, in which case a disambiguation term can be added in parentheses at the end. e.g. Bristol Temple Meads; Manchester Piccadilly; Sheffield (railway station). JeremyA 13:46, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Midland Metro stops

Some of these have articles, they are named in the format platform sign + "tram stop". There seems to have been a session renaming to achieve this set up, but seems relevant to this discussion. Ian3055 19:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

That seems to fit the pattern, so I'll add it as there is presumably consensus that there are at least some that deserve articles. Thryduulf 21:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
All the NET stops in Nottingham have articles, named in this format. Warofdreams talk 23:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

I've just created Exeter station is this style similar to the standard as I haven't seen any similar disambigs about to refer to...

That's the same approach I've used for disambigs such as High Street station - using just "station" in the disambig page's title to allow for other types of station (e.g. bus stations) to be included in the disambiguation. Warofdreams talk 02:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
There aren't many disambigs around, but that is a good example of what they should be. "station" is good for disambigs as you say. Thryduulf 09:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
A disambiguation page could also be created for Sheffield Station (with capital S as seen on Midland Mainline[1], BBC South Yorkshire[2], M&S Simply Food[3], WHSmiths [4] and National Rail websites), since there are/were three, it'd offer links to the three central stations as well the category to the other Sheffield stations. I shall do that over lunch break. Captain scarlet 11:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
'Hope no one minds but i removed the redirect on Sheffield Station and edited in a disambiguation page. Wicker, Vikky and Midland are on there as well as are categories. I hope it is satisfactory, Captain scarlet 11:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It was a good start, but I've made some improvements:
  • I've moved it to Sheffield station with a lowercase 's' as "station" in this context cannot be a proper noun and it matches the proposed convention.
  • I've noted in the introduction that they are railway stations and linked Sheffield for clarity
  • I've alphebetised the order of the stations (Midland, Victoria, Wicker)
  • I've noted that Midland is the only current one and is now known as just Sheffield (I think I'm correct in this?)
  • I've changed the displayed names to just show the names as there is no point (with the change in into) of repeating "railway station".
Also, when moving a page it is your responsibility to find and correct any double redirects. Also when you change a redirect to a disambig you should ideally disambiguate the incomming links. Thryduulf 18:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Having done all that I'm not convinced that the Midland article shoudn't be at Sheffield station (as that is the current official name) with the disambiguation at Sheffield station (disambiguation), however I'm not going to change that now. Its too soon to call the proposed convention agreed, but when it is I will think about proposing a page move. Thryduulf 18:43, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I Innocently thought that i had made my case concrning Sheffield Station with capital S, you blindly trying to impose your point of vue on this one and I will continue using the upper cas S in any new articles or edits i will made as i strongly disagree with your PoV, but as they say i might as well piss in a violin. I did remove the old redirects so i don't see your point there. since I have edited this conversation with backing (including the station's operator !) for my reasoning, the station article will direct to the Station article rather than the opposite. Regards, Captain scarlet 19:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
    • As I understand your view about capital S it is because the name of the station is a proper noun. The disambiguation article is not talking about a specific station, but is saying "There are three stations in Sheffield, which one do you want to know about?". In that sentence "station" is not a proper noun, and that sentence would look very off with a capital S for station in teh middle of it. Your links are making a case for a capital "S" in the name of the article about the stations, e.g. "Sheffield Midland Station", the essence of my disagreement with this is that article titles on Wikipedia are in setence case (First second third) rather than title case (First Second Third).
    • Regarding the old redirects, you moved "Sheffield Midland railway station" to "Sheffield Midland station". When I checked the backlinks I found 2 or three double redirects (e.g. Sheffield Midland Railway Station -> Sheffield Midland Station -> Sheffield Midland station). I probably wasn't very clear about this in my previous comment, for which I appologise. Thryduulf 20:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
right, ok, I'm seeing your point but I'd tend to dissagree. I understand that not every single word should have is first letter capitalise, I'm usually annoyed when I see that, but in this case, I'm concentrating on the fact the disambiguation pag eisn't about a station in Sheffield but THE station of Sheffield. That's when wikipedians will discover that there were three, all of which should naturally have their article's first letters capiatalised (if you understand that: nice one). Concerning the doule redirects, I simply did not touch them, considering they directed to the main article so should have naturally either brought an eventual wikipedia to the appropriate page. If you"ve made the necessary changes, then thanks, we don't want poor linking spoiling it all; thanks for making that point clear which i did miss. I believe we're getting close to resolving the issue, i think what is left is the other two stations, Victoria and Wicker, or perhaps leave as is... (i admit i haven't looked into their content so haven' tput my nose in there yet LOL). Regards, Captain scarlet 21:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Single redirects are not ideal but are normally ok. Redirects don't work in chains, the first redirect redirects as you would expect. However if you are redirected to a redirect page, that redirect doesn't work - i.e. if "1" redirects to "2" and "2" redirects to "3", then a person viewing "1" gets redirected to "2" but doesn't then get redirected to "3". For this reason "1" should be changed to redirect directly to "3". See Wikipedia:Double redirect for more (as this is getting very off topic, please leave a message on my talk page if you want to discuss this further). Regarding your capitalisation point, I will comment when I am more awake. Thryduulf 22:01, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birmingham New Street

Regarding the recent move of Birmingham New Street. I dont feel this has been properly discussed. I havn't been around much to put the opposing argument. I have already posted my objections on the New Street talk page but no one's taken any notice of them, so I'll put them here.

This move appears to violate the principle of using common names. And I can find no evidence that "railway" is included in the title of the station. Looking up google hits we find that:

Therefore I contend that this move is in violation of the common naming principle. "Birmingham New Street railway station" appears to be a wikipedia neologism. Somebody above stated that this was the correct name, I can find no evidence of this. It appears to be incorrect, Network Rail's website calls it Birmingham New Street Station [5]. G-Man * 21:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The reason for 'railway station' rathern than 'station' isn't to do with common names, but for using a consistent unambiguous name for stations that are served by mainline railway only. This was agreed for use with London stations ages ago by the London wikiproject. It was then used nationwide as a defacto standard used by almost all (at a guess I'd say over 90%) of articles. This proposal is an attempt to convert the defacto standard into an agreed standard. Thryduulf 22:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
And what if we don't agree ? Captain scarlet 22:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Then come up with an alternative suggestion that we can agree on. Ad hoc naming benefits nobody. Thryduulf 23:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm offering no alternative, that's the point, why have a convention? Categories list all stations so even if there is no wide scheme used, which i do not feel is obligatory, the categories will hold a listing of stations. Captain scarlet 06:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
The point of a convention is to make it easy for people to find and link to articles. If we have a random mix of "x" (Bristol Temple Meads), "x station" (Bedminster station), "x Station" (Parson Street Station), "x Train Station" (Nailsea and Backwell Train Station), "x y train station" (Yatton Junction train station), "x Railway Station" (Worle Railway station), "x Train station" (Weston Milton Train station), "x y Railway Station" (Weston-super-Mare loop Railway Station), etc then you are making it incredibly difficult to find the article you are intersested in.
Consider a list of all these (they are the calling points of a local train from Bristol to Weston-super-Mare) in a list and it will look incredibly unproffessional. Remember that categories are just one method of browsing, we have A-Z listings, geogrpahical listings, subject listings, etc.
Wikipedia's search is so poor that it is pure chance if you find an article if you don't have the exact title, searching for "Nailsea and Backwell station" may or may not find the article if it was named above. Having a standard means that people know what the article should be called so they can find it.
If the article is named "x Train Station" but someone links to "x railway station" then it is most likely they will assume the article has not been written. Then somebody else might come along and create the "x railway station article" duplicating the effort of writing and causing more work needed to merge them further on down the line.
Having a standard means that anything that deviates from the standard (e.g. if you don't know that the station in Bath is "Bath Spa" rather than just "Bath", or you don't know that Nottingham has a tram system) then just one or two redirects and/or disambiguation pages need to be created and watched. With no standard there would be a need for a dozen redirects to every article. I can see no good reasons for not having a standard. Thryduulf 12:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Just delete railway from the stations' title and use the British Railways Sectional Appendix standardised station naming. I can see no good reasons for not having a standard. Off course you don't that's why you're back with the whole railway station naming every 5 minutes... if you don't know that the station in Bath is "Bath Spa" rather than just "Bath" Editors will make sure that the name is changed to the correct naming. Captain scarlet Captain scarlet 12:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
We should either use official names for stations or common names, the present format is neither, it's a clumsy mess and a wikipedia invention, not actually used in the real world. G-Man * 21:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Also tram stations...

I've noticed a few stations which have been moved to the 'railway station' format which are not solely railway staions. For example:

  • There are several stations in south London which are also Croydon Tramlink stations.

Surely calling these 'railway stations' in the title is incorrect and misleading? G-Man * 21:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, I have started emigrating all stations in the city of Sheffield (project I am contributing to). All 'railway station' are moving to 'Station' since the British Rail standard as well as any map on book references stations as Nameplace Station. Concerning tram stops I am happy to name them like so Nameplace Stop, since they are not halts, nor stations. For places where the tram stop is an interchange then if interchange is used in literature, I'll use Interchange. Captain scarlet 21:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The existing convention for stations with Croydon Tramlink is X station, which this convention proposes to make national. I know Nottingham station and East Croydon station are the article names in use (I've not done any editing regarding any other tram systems in the UK so I don't know off the top of my head what they're named). Thryduulf 22:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually some stations appear to have been moved on 16 March, apparently per WP:RM which I was not aware of, so some may have been moved wrongly (Nottingham was, which I've reverted). Thryduulf 23:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More debate

Now surely a sensible system would be this:

  • Add 'railway' to train station articles where the station is just named after the place it serves such as Rugby railway station or Coventry railway station. In cases like this it would remove any possible confusion with bus stations etc.
  • In cases where the station has a unique name such as Birmingham New Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Bristol Temple Meads etc. There should be no need to add 'railway' to the title as there is little chance of it being confused with a bus station etc, and there is no need for such disambiguation. And 'railway' does not appear in the official title, and hence is a wikipedia neologism.
  • In cases where a station is not solely a railway station but is also a tram/underground etc station, 'railway' should not be used in the title.

Any thoughts G-Man * 21:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm very puzzled by this idea of removing -station or -railway station endings from things. Surely the article title should make it absolutely clear, especially to someone with no knowledge of the subject, what the article is about. Birmingham New Street sounds like it means an article about a street. Oh no, thats New Street, Birmingham. What clear article naming! Mrsteviec 17:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Just to repeat myself, ditch the railway. You don't see it in (many) books, you don't speak of them that way, the convention is purely arbitrary. The less railway we use in the titles, the easier it will make editing articles without the need to [[Inbred Town railway station|Inbred Town Station]], very tiresome, ditch the railway and owned. Captain scarlet 17:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Rail companies don't call them railway stations because they are all railway stations that they are refering to, there is no need to differentiate. Rugby station could be Rugby railway station or Ruby bus station so you need railway in the title so people can find it and link to it.If i'm writing an article on Rugby, and I refer to rugby station glass roof, to which station am I refering? If I write Rugby railway station everybody knows to what I am refering, but if you've writen the Rugby railway station article as just Rugby station and I link Rugby railway station it won't work.

Same with the capitals If I write Rugby railway station and your article is called Rugby Station it won't link. The Sheffield Midland station page is wrong because if it's just called Sheffield station now, the page should be called Sheffield station or Sheffield railway station. On the Sheffield page, the only reason you're getting away with calling it Sheffield station is because has a category for rail.(although it gets called both Sheffield station and sheffield midland on the sheffield article). Many towns are still stubs with no category, or simply have a transport category, also you've got a piped link on there reinforcing the point that the page name is wrong. All the above is fine if you're not going to be consistent and you're going to make it so that theres piped links and redirects everywhere. If you want simple links straight to a page then you need to use the proper full decriptive name, which in most cases is x railway station. Also of note is that the descriptions on the sheffield article for bus stations are Bus station, surely that should be Sheffield station if we're going to be consistent. Meadowhall again not descriptive at all, meadowhall is generally considered to mean the Shopping centre at Sheffield, so it should be called Meadow hall interchange, which is its proper descriptive name. Bristol temple meads is a unique name so i'm not sure if this needs to be clarified what it is. to be consistent though I suppose it does. 88.104.243.147 19:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closed stations

There is often the need, when discussing a particular line, to mention a railway station which is now closed. There does not appear to be any convention for that at all. As an example: a rail accident which took place at Welshampton railway station in 1897; no station now exists on that line; or describing the route near Hastings railway station: the second stop out westwards was St Leonards West Marina railway station, now closed.

and I do hope that we can keep calling them railway stations, unlike G-Man in his comment immediately above!!! Peter Shearan 16:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely unneeded as stated many times, it's purely artificial and arbitrary. Leicester Midland Station, not Leicester Midland railway station. Captain scarlet 17:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- but London Victoria Station - is that the rail or the coach station? Peter Shearan 05:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
It's a station, where you go and have a pint ... Captain scarlet 05:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
You'll be on your own their then because there is no such place as Leicester midland station or Leicester midland railway station, or even Leicester Midland Station.88.104.243.147 19:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merkland Street station

Just wondering. Should i call this a subway station, railway station or leave the article as is? From information gathered, it was part of the original Glasgow Subway. However, it closed during modernisation and before the metro system actually got its current name. Simply south 19:54, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Are there any other websites which mention it? If there are then if these generally treat it as a subway station name it as such, if they treat it as a mainline station then name it accordingly. Alternatively, if when it was last open the system it served would be more recognisable as a mainline railway than a subway/metro system then name it as a mainline railway sation and vice versa. I don't know Glasgow at all though so I can't say which will be the case. Thryduulf 20:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Random google search. At a quick glance, 14 sites use subway station, 48 use underground, none use railway and 314 just use the shortened station. Simply south 20:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
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