Talk:Myth

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive: 16:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Move from Myth/temp

At 16:05, 18 January 2006, I moved the content of Myth/temp to Myth and changed Myth/temp to redirect to Myth. For the edit history of Myth/temp, please see here. For the discussion of the creation of Myth/temp, please see Talk:Mythology, especially Talk:Mythology#Proposal, Talk:Mythology#I.27ve_made_the_Myth_disambiguation_page, and Talk:Mythology#Moving_right_along. For old discussion from this Talk page, see Archive above. JHCC (talk) 16:17, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to popular sense

Before anyone accuses me of trying to make POV edits and cover them up by moving the content, I made two edits to this article while it was still at Myth/temp:

  1. The previous language stated that the popular sense ("myth = false") "arose from labeling the religious stories and beliefs of other cultures as being incorrect". While this statement may be correct, is is currently disputed, and there was no source given to support it. I therefore removed it; compare versions here. I would, however, be more than happy to include it in a larger discussion of the development of academic and popular usage.
  2. With the removal of the aforementioned statement, language about the popular definition gaining widespread acceptance was a bit awkward; I changed this to "Given the widespread acceptance of this sense". I also changed "This usage is frequently confused with fiction, ..." to "This popular usage frequently overlaps with the popular senses of fiction, ..." since this is a more accurate (and possibly less pejorative) description of popular use. These two changes were part of the same edit; compare versions here.

If anyone disputes these changes, I would appreciate it if they could raise their objections here, so that we can discuss both the changes and the objections in a rational manner. JHCC (talk) 16:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

You should have discussed these changes beforehand. I think it's pretty bad faith to just go ahead and do them and transfer them to a live page and then try to say that if anyone disputes them that we should discuss them before changing them... You should have discussed them here before changing them. You constantly do whatever you want to do and then try to argue to keepit that way until discussion is made, which is twisting things upside down from the way they should be. DreamGuy 02:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
That's funny, I don't recall you discussing your addition of that language to Myth/temp in the first place (your edit summary was "showing disambiguation page version" [1]). I at least put notices both here and at Talk:Mythology#Myth to let people know that I'd made the changes and was willing to discuss them — I should think that that demonstrates at least some good faith. Also, please do not misquote me: I did not say "that if anyone disputes them that we should discuss them before changing them" (emphasis added) — I said "If anyone disputes these changes, I would appreciate it if they could raise their objections here, so that we can discuss both the changes and the objections in a rational manner." Obviously, anyone can edit WP at any time; I was just hoping that we could discuss the actual wording without resorting to personal attacks and revert wars. I still hope that.
In any event, now that you have reverted to your previous version, let's discuss. Do you have any evidence to support the contention that the popular use "arose from labeling the religious stories and beliefs of other cultures as being incorrect" or is this original research? There are competing theories for the development of the academic and popular uses; are you willing to include these as well, in the interest of balance and NPOV?
I've made a specific objection to the inclusion of this language. Do you have a specific response as to why it should be included, other than criticism of my editing practice or of what you think my motives are? JHCC (talk) 14:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
DreamGuy, do you have a cite for this? Also: how will this help a disambig page? Will it enhance the readeers' understanding, and how? KillerChihuahua?!? 10:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Senses of "myth"

A thought occurs to me: we have been focussing on the scholarly and popular senses of "myth" and "mythology". The popular sense is simply "myth = false", while the scholarly sense is basically truth-neutral (can be either true or false) but has the important element that people believe it to be true. I'm wondering if there is more to be said on this last point. That is to say, there are those who believe that a "myth" by definition:

"represents an absolute truth, afford insights 'into the indescribable realities of the soul', or [...] 'is not in the nature of invention ... but a living reality'." (Hawkes, Jacquetta (1974). Myth and Mankind. In Ions, Veronica, The World's Mythology in Colour. The Hamlyn Publishing Group Ltd)

This is a sense of "myth" that is neither truth-negative nor truth-neutral; it is emphatically truth-positive.

Thanks to Iantresman for providing the quote. JHCC (talk) 19:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I would support something like this being worked into the content. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
The definition already includes mention that it is believed to be true by the culture it comes from. I don't understand what could be added here without trying to convert the disambiguation page into an article, which goes against the consensus we had. Disambiguation pages list short information and shunt readers off to the appropriate articles, they do not go into added detail on whatever points some editor wants to argue. JHCC from the beginning wanted this to be a separate article to compete against the mythology article and it appears he is immediately back to the same effort. DreamGuy 02:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
As predicted, DreamGuy is attempting to claim that consensus was for this article to be a disambiguation page forever, despite the following facts:
1. DreamGuy did note that "if edit warring starts happening again or people put in things that the concensus here didn't agree to we'd just have it locked again" [2] However, since the Myth article was never locked, this could imply that additions and changes to to the Mythology article itself would require consensus approval — a notion I entirely support.
2. When David D. voted in favor of DreamGuy's proposal, his "I say go for it" [3] was in response to DreamGuy's "Anyone opposed to unlocking and moving on?" David did not specifically express either support or opposition for keeping Myth as a disambiguation page forever, nor did he specifically support or oppose changing it to a larger article.
3. Although Haukur did say "I'm in favor of the draft at Myth/temp" [4], he also did not specifically express either support or opposition for keeping Myth as a disambiguation page forever, nor did he specifically oppose changing it to a larger article (see #8 below).
4. In fact, within the context of this vote, no-one other than DreamGuy has specifically expressed support for keeping Myth as a disambiguation page forever.
5. When I said that my vote to "move right along" [5] was not a vote on the final form of either Myth or Mythology (i.e., that I was voting in favor of creating the dab page, but not necessarily in favor of keeping it a dab page forever):
a. User:Codex Sinaiticus voted "ditto" [6].
b. KillerChihuahua said that she "thought that went without saying" [7].
6. When I expanded [8] on my earlier comment, saying that I wanted to be sure that "no-one takes this as consensus on every detail of the form and content of the various articles." KillerChihuahua expressed agreement [9] with my assertion that "Any changes, additions, deletions, etc can be discussed, accepted, rejected, or whatever on their own merits later on" — in fact, she repeated, "I thought it went without saying".
7. KHM03 also expressed support for "[letting] the Wikipedia thing happen" [10] — i.e., allowing the scope of Myth article to be expanded from dab to full article if there were sufficient material and consensus support for such expansion.
8. Outside the context of the vote, Haukur and Adrian.baker have expressed support ([11], [12]) for my suggestion that the Myth article be expanded.
9. Also outside the context of the vote, Paul August has expressed very clear support [13] for my proposal that we "continue discussion at Talk:Myth as to the content and scope of the Myth page" [14].
In short, consensus was to CREATE a disambiguation page for Myth, not to keep Myth as a disambiguation page.
Since:
1. DreamGuy's proposal did not specifically state that Myth would forever remain a disambiguation page,
2. no-one specifically expressed support for keeping Myth as a disambiguation page,
3. no-one specifically expressed opposition to expanding Myth into a larger article,
4. four editors (myself included) specifically stated or implied within the context of the vote that Myth could be edited into something other than the proposed disambiguation page,
5. two other editors have expressed support for expanding the Myth article, and
6. an additional editor has expressed support for continued discussion on the scope and content of Myth,
DreamGuy's contention that "convert[ing] the disambiguation page into an article [...] goes against the consensus we had" is obviously incorrect; no such consensus exists.
I do support expanding Myth to a larger article (although I am not claiming that there is consensus at this time to support this idea), and I've been very clear and open about this for some time. However, I do like the idea of a dab page, especially given the number of articles currently linked. If consensus does end up supporting the expansion of Myth into a larger article, we can create a Myth (disambiguation) page and put {{Otheruses}} or one of its variants at the top of this one. JHCC (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Getting back to the point, the proposed content is not the same as the academic sense. The academic sense makes no claims as to whether or not a myth is true (either historically or in the sense of revealing an underlying truth), it merely notes that people believe that it is true. Those who use "myth" to describe their own beliefs do so to assert the truth of those beliefs (again, either historical truth or underlying truth — or both), as distinct from non-religious narratives. JHCC (talk) 18:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I am beyond all tolerance for JHCC's shenanigans here... We had broad consensus that this article could not become a WP:FORK article and thus either should be a redirect or a disambiguation page. Trying to turn it into a full artilce so you can advance your POV-pushing alternate explanations and so forth is a complete violation of what was agreed upon and policy here. We also agreed any of the stuff you wanted about religion would go to Religion and mythology. We absolutely cannot have a Myth (disambiguation) page because that's what THIS is, and any article on myths must be at Mythology because that's what that article is.

When oh when are JHCC and Codex going to learn that consensus means something, and that it has to be followed? DreamGuy 19:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

One thing I notice in these and most of your comments is that you generally posit a very authoritarian role. As if your word is final and not to be disagreed with by anyone, or else. I am very curious about whence exactly you derive your authoritatative tone to make such pronouncements as in your comment line "period, full stop". It's mildly amusing at times, but it's really got me wondering at this point. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
DreamGuy, you keep saying "we agreed" and "we had consensus". Could you please provide EVIDENCE to support these assertions? JHCC (talk) 19:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: right now it is a disambig page. Lets try and do something productive with it, and stop the silly additions of meaningless dates and "earlier" vs. "later" for two concurrently valid meanings. This page is more war than productive editing, can we table the myth "article" discussion for now? KillerChihuahua?!? 20:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Urban myth

I'm removing the characterizing of "urban myth" as an "incorrect" term for urban legend. The urban legend article does have a section (Urban legend#Urban legend versus urban myth) pointing out the prejudicial character of "myth" ("myth = false")and the academic sense usually refering to a supernatural tale. Although the original coiner of the term "urban legend" did not like "urban myth", there are three points in favor of not calling it "an incorrect term":

  1. there is an exact parallel between the popular use of "myth" and the popular use of both "urban myth" and "urban legend" to say that something is not true.
  2. an important element of an urban myth/legend is that the teller (either current or original) believes it to be true; this same element is an important part of the academic sense of myth.
  3. (perhaps most important) "urban myth" appears to be the standard term in the UK; the Compact OED of Current English has an entry for "Urban Myth" which gives "urban legend" as a chiefly North American variant [15].

However, discussion of the correctness or incorrectness of "urban myth" is better resolved at Urban legend and its talk page. Here, noting that it is an alternate term is sufficient. JHCC (talk) 16:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

"there is an exact parallel between the popular use of "myth" and the popular use of both "urban myth" and "urban legend" to say that something is not true." = this is absolutely false. Urban legends ARE NOT "something that is not true" - again, it's possibly true or false. Urban myth as a word to mean urban legend is wrong, because the myth as supernatural meaning doesn;t apply, and neither does the myth as falsehood. No definition of myth applies to urban legends, so urban myths is incorrect. This is why only people who understand the topics should be writing articles on them and not just people coming in from elsewhere to try to continue fights over definitions they don't understand.DreamGuy 19:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I concur. KillerChihuahua?!? 10:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I reverted DreamGuy's re-addition of "(but incorrect)" for the following reasons (apart from those already stated):
  • His rationale of "revert -- hey, the article being linked to says it's incorrect, and it is incorrect, so who are you to claim it isn;t? oh, that's right, Mr. Change Myth to Mean Something Else Guy", apart from being insulting, is flawed on three points:
1. WP:CITE specifically states Wikipedia articles should not use other Wikipedia articles as sources. Wikilinks are not a substitute for sources.
2. Even if Urban legend were a legitimate source for this article, it does not characterize urban myth as "incorrect", although it does note some objections to the term.
3. I am not saying that urban myth is not incorrect, nor am I saying that it is. In fact, I make no claims whatsoever as to whether urban myth is a correct or incorrect usage.
  • Calling urban myth "incorrect" comes close to violating Wikipedia is not a usage guide. We can describe how words are used in particular circumstances, but we cannot say how they should be used.
For my comments on the Urban legend versus urban myth section of Urban legend, see Talk:Urban legend#Urban Myth vs. Urban Legend. JHCC (talk) 15:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • "discussion of the correctness or incorrectness of "urban myth" is better resolved at Urban legend and its talk page" - It WAS Resolved on that talk page, and IS resolved on that talk page, except for you trying to freaking change the meaning of words again. We cannot tolerate you and Codex going around trying to switch words around on a whim just to fit whatever argument you are trying to make. It's just astounding to me that you apparently whenever you get something wrong start bringing your controversy to every article that proves you wrong. You need to back off and let the people who understand the topics wroite about the topics, not just hop in because your religious article somewhere wants to claim that "myth" is insulting and that it means "these silly stories people tell that are false" and etcetera. Enough is enough. DreamGuy 03:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Since DreamGuy has not answered any of the points above, I am removing "(but incorrect)". If DreamGuy would like to offer a rational response to the specific objections that I have raised (none of which have anything to do with my religious views or lack thereof), I am more than happy to reconsider. JHCC (talk) 14:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Jesus Freaking Christ Almighty... I have answered all of your points above... on the talkpage for the article in question, just like we agreed upon. Stop freaking reverting and then lying about it. DreamGuy 16:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, please do not accuse me of lying. The discussion of what should be included on Urban legend is a separate issue, and that is being discussed on Talk:Urban legend#Urban Myth vs. Urban Legend. On this page, you have not offered a single response to any of my points about whether or not "(but incorrect)" should be included on Myth, other than "revert -- hey, the article being linked to says it's incorrect, and it is incorrect, so who are you to claim it isn;t? oh, that's right, Mr. Change Myth to Mean Something Else Guy", which is refuted above. JHCC (talk) 16:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
If you don't want to have me say that you are lying, STOP LYING. The discussion of urban myth being incorrect IS on that talk page, and YOU KNOW THIS. Why on EARTH would we need to go and discuss it AGAIN here? The FACT that it's incorrect is already established over there, and since that's the main article, that's what we go with. We can't just have diferent facts on different pages. DreamGuy 19:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
What "different facts"? I'm not saying "Urban myth is the correct term for urban legend." I'm saying that whether or not it is incorrect (and I grant that it is incorrect in academic usage) is irrelevant on this page, and therefore should not be included here.
We both agree that discussion of this issue should be (and is) at Talk:Urban legend#Urban Myth vs. Urban Legend. I am not trying to bring that discussion here.
As for your claim that I am lying, if you can provide evidence that I am lying, I'm more than willing to apologize. If not, this is nothing more than a personal attack, and I would appreciate a retraction and, ideally, an apology. JHCC (talk) 20:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
ok, let's back up a second. JHCC is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that "but incorrect" is an unnecessary addition. DreamGuy, your position is (correct me if I'm wrong) that leaving that off may be misleading. Yes? KillerChihuahua?!? 20:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
That is exactly what I am saying. I would also add, since "urban myth" does have currency as a popular expression (particularly in the UK), that to characterize it as "incorrect" (rather than "non-academic" or "popular") violates NPOV — that is, it implies that only academic usages are universally "correct". Hence my support for Haukurth's compromise (see below). JHCC (talk) 21:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haukurth's compromise

I entirely support this edit as a reasonable compromise, perhaps changing "(not academic)" to "(but not academic)" to make the point even more strongly. JHCC (talk) 21:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

I think I may have accidentally run over other edits when trying to take the dates out - apologies if I did. There is absolutely no need for dates to clarify "recent," regardles of the source these dates are arbitrary, useless, moving targets. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. JHCC (talk) 16:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there is no need for dates, especially ones from only one source that wsa already proven to be completely out of step with all other sources on the matter. DreamGuy 16:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, Codex needs to get blocked here or something, because he's outright lying on a regular basis about sources and ignoring clearly settled consensus. He calims in a recent edit comment: "the earliest definition in the sense of 'false' is 1830, the earliest for 'maybe true' is 1963 - see Talk:Mythology" But we KNOW that's false, because the source he originally posted showed that the "regardless or true or false" definition is THE ORIGINAL GREEK MEANING and the MAIN MEANING for CENTURIES!

We fully went over this time and time and time and TIME AND TIME AGAIN, and he just will not let go.

It's one thing to be bull-headed, but it's a whole other thing to freaking lie about sources and what a talk page says.DreamGuy 19:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the sources cleearly prove that the "Original Greek meaning" was changed by 500 BC and only was revived for a different purpose by academics around 1963. There is no continuity whatsoever of the term in English between Ancient Greek and the early 19th century borrowing of the word from French mythologie in an already changed sense. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, no, the sources clearly do not prove that at all. That's complete nonsense. That meaning was the primary meaning for thousands of years, and has always been the primary meaning, except perhaps for colloquial usage here and there. It is extremely disturbing that you can try to push this nonsense onto an encyclopedia. DreamGuy 23:02, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
No, what's extremely disturbing is that you would baldly make such claims, when you have yet to come up with a shred of a cite that that was the "primary meaning" in any language from BC times until 1963. If you have any cite from anywhere that it was ever used in English that way before then, let's see it. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Both meanings are current; I see no purpose in arguing interminably about whether there was a 5 minute gap or a 5 millinium gap in useage. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree, and I entirely concur with KillerChihuahua's earlier edit summary: "for the record, my position is leave out "earlier" and "later" alltogether - no need, is just causing silly reverts" [16]. JHCC (talk) 21:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
OK then, I suppose it is a moot point now, as long as the purposefully misleading language is going to be left out, like saying the 1830 definition "gained acceptance", or worse yet, was "colloquial"... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

Per a question I posed at Talk:Mythology, I propose adjusting the academic definition to clarify that not all myths are supernatural, religious, or spiritual. Perhaps:

In the academic field of mythology, a myth is a story of heroism or supernatural events that is believed to be true by people who perceive religious, spiritual, or cultural significance in it. Use of the term by scholars does not imply that the tale is either true or false.

Moving "supernatural" after "heroism" eliminates the ambiguity over whether or not it modifieds both "events" and "heroism", while adding "cultural" opens the door to founding myths and national myths. Thoughts? JHCC (talk) 16:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with that, and I like the "cultural" being moved to be with "religious, spiritual" regardless of how heroism and supernatural eventually end up. KillerChihuahua?!? 18:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Uh, no... We've been over this before. Myths by the aceademic definition ARE supernatural (or involve heroes who have supernatural origin if not direct supernatural events in the story). The National myths article is not using the term academically. What that article is describing are legends. Misnamed articles elsewhere do not mean we readjust the academic definition to fit the false ideas of others. DreamGuy 19:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Ah, good point. Not sure you made a statement about the second part of the suggested change, DG - are you also disagreeing with the "people who perceive religious, spiritual, or cultural significance"? Because currently we have cultures believing, which is awkwardly phrased at best. Cultures don't believe. People believe. It may be common within a culture to believe, or it may be part of a cultural paradigm to believe, but cultures don't believe. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
If indeed the academic definition absolutely includes the supernatural, perhaps a note about stories that do not would bring greater clarity, such as:
In the academic field of mythology, a myth is a story of supernatural events or heroism that is believed to be true by people who perceive religious, spiritual, or cultural significance in it. (Such stories that do not include the supernatural are technically considered legends.) Use of the term by scholars does not imply that the tale is either true or false.
Better? JHCC (talk) 21:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, too darn long. Suggestion: In the academic field of mythology, a myth is a story of supernatural events or heroism that is believed to be true by people who perceive religious, spiritual, or cultural significance in it. Use of the term by scholars does not imply that the tale is either true or false. would work for me. Do you really feel strongly that legend needs to be mentioned/clarified/distingushed? If so, we can work on verbiage which would accomplish that without the parens, and hopefully more brevity. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Your suggestion is fine, and I would be quite willing to accept it. A clearer mention/clarification/distintion is needed, but perhaps would be more appropriate on Mythology; I will suggest it there. JHCC (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, no, cultural significance is not enough, it has to specifically be religious/supernatural significance. If something had cultural significance but not supernatural then it would be a legend or some other designation depending upon the specifics of the tale. And, yes, cultures DO believe things... Cultures are groups of people. The whole point is that for something to be a myth that a cultural group has to believe it to be true. Stories that mere people believe to be true could be folklore or something else and not necessarily myth. Please, people, stop trying to rush to change the meanings around. These words have very specific meanings. DreamGuy 23:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

already changed - I think I was posting on article while you were posting here. Let me know if you see issues with current version. Cultures still cannot believe anything, grammatically. The people of a culture can, as part of the culture... suggestions? KillerChihuahua?!? 23:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
What about "people in a particular culture believe..."? JHCC (talk) 23:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
That's certainly going in the right direction. I'm not sure it makes it clear that the belief is a culture-thing, if you follow. It needs to be fairly obvious that it is part of the culture to believe, not just that they happen to believe. Am I being clear here or have I muddied the waters? KillerChihuahua?!? 23:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
"Cultures still cannot believe anything, grammatically." What makes you say that? Of course they can. I don't follow what you are saying. People of a culture is redundant... unless you can think of some culture that isn't made up of people. Cultures are grouped by beliefs (and other things), so they certainly can believe things. It's part of the definition. Races don;t believe anything, countries don't believe anything, but cultures do... that's kind of the whole point. DreamGuy
Culture: The system of shared beliefs, values, customs, behaviours, and artifacts that the members of society use to cope with their world and with one another, and that are transmitted from generation to generation through learning. Belief: Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something.
The people of a culture believe, the beliefs (and customs, etc.) define the culture. But saying a culture believes is poor phrasing. Have you a suggested phrasing which will incorporate the meaning without the poor phrasing? KillerChihuahua?!? 23:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Culture is the system, a culture refers the people... but if you want to be more precise, cultural group adds a couple syllables to be less likely to be confused with the system, but might be confused with related systems. DreamGuy
In the academic field of mythology, a myth is a story of supernatural events or heroism that is believed to be true by people who perceive religious or spiritual significance in it. is current wording. What if we changed people to cultural groups of people? I'm not jumping up and down about it, but it seems to fit the bill. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
What about In the academic field of mythology, a myth is a story of supernatural events or heroism that is believed to be true in a culture of people who perceive religious or spiritual significance in it ? JHCC (talk) 00:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

(reduce) SFAIK cultures are generally considered to be of people, unless we're talking about science fiction. Taking out "in a culture" gets us back to people without the cultural wrapper. And taking out "of people" gets us back to the culture believing. Which I may well have to learn to live with, as unhappy as it makes my sensibilities. KillerChihuahua?!? 00:04, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, how about In the academic field of mythology, a myth is a story of supernatural events or heroism in which the people of a culture or society perceive religious or spiritual significance and which they believe to be true ? Keeps both "cuture" and "people" and eliminates the passive voice, too! JHCC (talk) 00:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Sheesh, passive voice is always a pain, isn't it? So easy to fall into. Academic is redundant with "field"... otherwise it just might work.... Wow. DG, do you see any logical/definition type errors here? [unsigned comment by KillerChihuahua?!?]
Actually, per a comment I just made at Talk:Mythology, "academic study of mythology" would be even better. This could mean either the action of studying bodies of myths or the academic discipline itself within which myths are studied. Both would be relevant and appropriate. JHCC (talk) 00:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we not have the same conversation in two places? Already explained why that sentence was triply redundant over there. "Academic" in relation to "mythology" is always going to be redundant. I might have added it here to try to get the people who wanted it explicit off my case (did I add that?) but it's kind of clumsy. "Study of" is also almost always redundant for most uses of the term. "Field" is really all the clarification necessary... And, actually, really it doesn't even need that. ALL uses of mythology use the definition given there. The colloquial definition of myth is not used in mythology, ever. Mythology is not the study of false statements, or a collection of false statements, its spiritual narratives etc. etc. DreamGuy 19:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Let me just reiterate that I don't see any reason to change the definition that is currently there, as every rationale given above seems to be based upon incorrect understandings of many of the key terms (with the possible except of the "cultures do not believe" claim, which I already gave my view on). I created the sentence to be as specific and accurate to the academic definition as possible, and apparently even added in some extra redundancies to make it more clear to people just skimming. Before we talk about what to change it to, go back to why you think anything needs to be changed. DreamGuy 19:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

To make clear that we are talking about academia, not a popular-level "(Fill-In-The-Blank) Myths and Legends" or the dreaded Encyclopedia Mythica. There's no harm in being explicit, especially for a non-specialist audience that may not be aware of Mythology as an academic field or the definitions used therein. JHCC (talk) 19:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

==Definition part II==

[edit] Disambiguation or Definition?

pasted from "Myth" edit history: (User KillerChihuahua)

Rumours are not always, or even usually, about the supernatural and hence are NOT myths.

pasted from my talk page:

The word myth may have several meanings (hence the disambiguation page). Only the academic one deals with supernatural incidents.

On pages linking to myth, often the term Rumor (may be correct or false) or Falsehood would be more appropriate. Hence, I think that a risk of confusion is given and meaningful disambiguation should take place.

Which disambiguation pages would you propose for the following (non-academic, common language) meanings of myth? Here are my suggestions:

  • a fact of known falsehood -> Lie, Falsehood
  • a fact with uncertain correctness -> Rumor
  • a story with uncertain correctness -> ??? (Rumor)
  • a story which proved to be false -> urban legend

Of course, one could state that these are covered in the wiktionary - but when there are articles in the wikipedia dealing with rumors and lies, I think that listing them reduce the risk of confusion.

What do you think? -- Ravn 14:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, adding an incorrect useage of the word to a disambig page is poor editing. The correct course of action would be to correct any articles which mis-use the word "myth" to point to the correct word (Lie, Rumor, etc). I further think that although the page was overly long and discoursive, the trimming of clarification which Ravn did was perhaps excessive, leading to this issue being raised yet again. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:48, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it's better to fix the articles pointing here. Which part of the discourse would you suggest to keep? -- Ravn 15:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest that "perhaps excessive" should read "totally off the wall beyond any possible rationalization". I've reverted to the last good version. There's absolutely no call for that kind of massive purging. This is a disambiguation page and needs to disambiguate, not to mention it's clear that Ravn doesn't even understand the major concepts behind the terms being discussed. DreamGuy 16:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Obviously. Well, then let's forget about my attempt. -- Ravn 18:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
From the message above:
"* a story which proved to be false -> urban legend"
OK, that's entirely wrong. That's not even close to what urban legend means. DreamGuy 16:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I did not state a definition of "urban legend". That's why the arrow is pointing in only one direction. -- Ravn 18:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I would however strongly suggest to clean up the page. It currently looks more like a mix of a search index and a wiktionary definition. Various links are confusing or lead back to this page. I would

  • Move the definitions to their appropriate pages (or create them, if necessary) or the wiktionary
  • Remove links that cannot be confused with "myth" (all these myth of X for example)
  • Actually provide disambiguation links for the definitions.

MoS:DP may help you there. -- Ravn 18:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last "ridiculous" edit.

I considered the last edit by RylehRising (making Myth an article explaining the word and creating the disambiguation page Myth (disambiguation) a perfectly good compromise. Even though the former is already very close to a wiktionary entry IMVHO.

DreamGuy, I fear that your idea of a disambiguation page is not consensus in Wikipedia. Please explain further why you labeled RylehRisings change as "ridiculous". -- Ravn 10:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Concur with Ravn. DG, please give your reasoning here, thanks. KillerChihuahua?!? 12:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
While I agree that "myth", "mythology" and "myth (disambiguation)" should all be separate pages, and "myth" should be a proper article in and of itself, as one other Wikipedias, I don't personally see how the reverted edit in question was moving in any way towards that. All it did was remove some/most of the disambig material from this page (not creating a proper article) and moving it to a page that is, until we work something out here, nothing more than a waste of space. elvenscout742 13:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
While it may not help the article, it helps the disambiguation purpose. People who look for the game Myth, should not have to find their link in two pages of irrelevant text. That's why dab pages are encouraged to be short and clean. The linked to articles will provide the detail.
Does it actually harm the article to separate the disambiguation material? I do not think that we are facing a space problem here. -- Ravn 13:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The way (possibly DreamGuy and) I advocate means people looking for the game only need scroll through one (perhaps cluttered - I haven't read it) disambig page. Yer way, the word "myth" brings one to a useless page that would be better as a redirect with a link to a disambiguation page.
Do you refer with my way to my edit, or to the one of RylehRising that I currently support? In the latter case, the word myth would bring you to this article with a link to a disambiguation page, just like you suggest. -- Ravn 14:51, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
...On examination, this disambig page does need some items toward the end removed. books, paintings, etc. entitled "The Myth of [whatever...]" will not look up the word "myth" - if they do, they don't really deserve to find it. Also, maybe if "myth" is never going to become an article in itself, it should be made a redirect to "myth (disambiguation)", so as to clarify the disambiguative nature of the page?
elvenscout742 14:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The {{disambig}} message is considered sufficient for that. -- Ravn 14:51, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. I thought that one of the bases for this argument was that that notice did not appear on the page, making it ambiguous. I'll just add it if no one minds. elvenscout742 14:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The notice is already featured on the bottom of the page. This argument actually came up because of the claim that this is a disambiguation page, albeit it violates most of the guidelines for disambiguation pages. -- Ravn 15:18, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh. Sorry about that. This is still meant to be a disambig page, though, so we should fix it to conform to those guidelines (which, BTW, are completely new to me). I doubt anyone's going to argue if the edits can be backed up by the MoS. elvenscout742 18:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Which is what RylehRising did, except he was reverted soon after. That's the whole topic of this discussion. Am I missing something? KillerChihuahua?!? 23:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, I tried. Please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation page) and Wikipedia:Disambiguation for my rationale. Technically, I should have taken a hatchet to the article and gotten rid of all the irrelevent material. Instead, as has been noted, I tried to do a compromise. The upshot, unfortunately, is that my edits were a complete waste of time, since EVERYTHING was reverted back (!). Which makes me wonder: WHY SHOULD I WASTE TIME FIXING DISAMBIGUATION PAGES IF THEY'RE JUST GOING TO GET REVERTED, ANYWAY? That's a rhetorical question, by the way.
    -,-~R'lyehRising~-,- 02:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Ryleh - it was not a waste of time. I think we should restore your version. I just wanted to give DreamGuy time to explain his revert. Which he did not. If no one objects, I am going to restore Ryleh's edit in 24h. -- Ravn 09:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I do object, my not responding to you immediately does not give you the right to do whatever the heck you want, and RlyehRising's edit was a waste of time, as that "fix" did not "fix" anything, it just made the disambiguation page useless as a disambiguation page. We do not meed Mythology, Myth AND Myth (disambiguation). As discussed on Talk:Mythology and consensus reached after long discussion, this page is the disambiguation page, and should it ever not become a disambiguation page it needs to be redirected to Mythology instead of being a separate article. This was discussed in great detail. RlyehRising's edits turned the article from a disambiguation page to a completely purposeless page going against clearly defined consensus discussed by a huge number of editors and soundly decided. There are only two options here: Redirect Myth to Mythology like it used to be with a link to disambiguation at the top of that page, or keep Myth as the disambiguation page. After long discussion we chose the latter. It absolutely will not work as a separate article and a disambig page in yet another location, as that pointlessly spreads info out everywhere and effectively makes this article a WP:FORK article competing with Mythology for the same info. We've gone over this again and again and again and decided it fully, so it should come as no surprise that someone showing up out of nowhere to mess it up will be reverted. 08:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your explanation. It would have helped had you pointed us to Talk:Mythology in the first place, instead of calling other people's edits ridiculous. Now I understand that "the consensus" is to keep Myth as a disambiguation page - which is fine with me. (can you give me a direct pointer to the outcome of the discussion? There are many archives in Talk:Mythology, and I could not find it at first sight.)
Now my argument was that the page should be brought in line with MoS:DP (and WP:D)- where should I bring that up in your opinion? Here or at Talk:Mythology?
Are you familiar with these guidelines and the reasoning behind them? Would you agree that this page is not in line? Why did you remove the {{disambig-cleanup}} tag? -- Ravn 10:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Formatting

I am going to make another attempt at formatting the page, while refraining from removing the dictionary definitions. I will quote the exact portion of the guidelines for each edit. I understand that the consensus is to keep this as a disambiguation page. I am sure that the consensus is not to keep the page badly formatted as it is.

If you disagree with a specific edit, please give reasons. If you want to revert an edit, please revert (or restore) that edit, not any other useful edits that preceded or succeeded. Thanks. -- Ravn 10:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] True or false is irrelevant.

why does this simple dab page seem to be so hung up on whether myths are true or false? It also seems to be a bit confused about whether myths and those that believe them are religious. why?

It is a fairly simple thing to state that:

myth is a story or tale containing some supernatural (in the proper sense) elements, myths have existed in all cultures since recorded history
example; the Odyssey, the epic of Gilgamesh. etc.
myth is comparatively recent term that has been applied to stories that purport to have a basis in fact, but when examined are fictional.
example; urban myth, the myth of El Dorado.
Myth (computer game), a series of real-time tactical computer games
mythology is the study of myth, usually associated with the fields of; poetics, literary criticism, psychology, philosophy (following Jung) and Hermeneutics (following heidegger) amongst others.
mythic is a quality that partakes of myth found in narratives that aren't necessarily myths
example; superhuman strength, the ability to fly etc.
mythical denotes an element taken from a myth
example; frog princes, golden fleeces, elves,
The Myth, a 2005 Chinese film starring Jackie Chan

Please note that I have put myth at the top of the list - as it is what the page is about.

With that said. I fail to see why there is no page for myth other than a disambig page - especially when you consider that the human race has been churning out myths since before the invention of writing. How on earth did this entry end up so confused? There is an enormous body of work relating to myth, more than enough to fill a fully featured article. It seems to me that someone here has discovered some sort of scientific apriorism and has decided to wage war on anything that isn't empirical - that would be fine for say an algebra article or a materials science subject - but for myth you really do need to have a sense of the poetic, symbolic, metaphoric or even the phenomenological.

While writing this I have decided to make the changes that I have outlined above - Judging by the ongoing saga in this talk, I imagine that It will get reverted. but hey, who knows It might be just what was needed to break the impasse. DavidP

Concur and support. KillerChihuahua?!? 22:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../m/y/t/Talk%7EMyth_ddb1.html"