Talk:Music of Japan

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Can' find the japanese names convention. I think there should be a wikipedia page for HowTo write family name and first name for japanese people. IMHO: In Japan Utada Hikaru is only known this way and not that way: Hikaru Utada. Also the Kanjis and Katakana on the linked page Hikaru Utada saying Utada Hikaru and not Hikaru Utada. It's the same for Ayumi Hamasaki and Nobukazu Takemura. anobo 05:21 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

That's the problem: There is no convention. Even the biography page says so. IMHO though (I'm the one fiddling with Utada's page at the moment and I wrote the initial stub) If written in Romaji, it should be western-style (so those of American/European origin, who are most likely to interpret such names, will not get confused), but when written in kanji, it should be written Japanese style. I personally brought the issue up again on the Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies) page. Another reason I side with Western-order with Japanese names in romaji is that, in many cases where Japanese names are becoming more visible in Western environments, they are being viewed in Western-order.

Hikaru Utada has been called such in New York Times articles. A strange case, however can also be seen in Time magazine articles, in which Hikaru's name is listed in Japanese order, but her parents' names (in the fifth paragraph) are in normal Western-order.

Chances are though, when Hikki releases her first album over here supposedly this Fall, she will likely go by "Hikaru Utada" and not "Utada Hikaru". Same goes for "Yuki Kajiura" who is releasing her new album "Fiction" over here in the States at the beginning of July.

Thus, it's clearly an uncertain choice, but due to the fact that Wikipedia (English version) is designed for an English-speaking Western-cultured audience, assuming that they know little to no knowledge of Japanese names, I favor Western style names for Romanized names (though original order can be kept when written in the original script).

-- Pipian 05:40 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

As I started the Agatsuma page I moved this page to Agatsuma Hiromitsu, because I found such a disambiguation page. Now I don't know :-). But, Hikaru Utada sounds a _little bit_ funny to me. :-) anobo 06:00 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Concerning Japanese_name 3rd paragraph the family name is placed first. anobo 05:36 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Yes, traditionally it is. However, there is no official Wikipedia convention regarding how they are to be named in Wikipedia. -- Pipian

The trouble is that as an english language encyclopædia wiki has to follow naming conventions that are understood by english language users, even if a different system of naming is followed in Japan. So if in english Utada Hikaru is known as Hitaru Utada, then english wiki would have to go by Hitaru Utada, though a Japanese wiki would needless to say use Utada Hikaru. We have to use a format that can be understood by users of wiki, and on this wiki, that is english language users and they have traditionally inverted Japanese names. One or two users did try to change a lot of names around but got into rows with other Japanese people on wiki who said that it was wrong to apply strict native Japanese naming on a non-Japanese source, hence right now some are in Japanese form, a lot in english form. Attempts to agree on naming conventions for Japanese fell into all sorts of difficulty, with the draft convention which one user inserted as a convention being overtaken by events and so being in a form of limbo.

Wiki in general does not go by native names but by english names or english variants of native names unless people are known internationally by the native form. Hence Russian Tsars are named in english, not Russian, for example. But Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh, a former Irish president is named in gaelic because that form of name was used also when referring to him in english. Ultimately wiki has to follow english naming conventions on english wiki, Japanese naming conventions on a Japanese wiki, Chinese naming conventions on a Chinese wiki, etc. FearÉIREANN 06:01 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

You have a good point but the trouble is this is not the case always. For example, try searching Utada Hikaru and Hikaru Utada in Google, and you should get more results with Utada Hikaru. It is weird in English writing but Utada Hikaru is more common in fact. Besides, in history, the East-Asian name order is usually common such as Oda Nobunaga not Nobunaga Oda. I don't intend to dispute which one is more accurate or natural in English writing but I am just telling that the reality is so confusing, inconsistent than what we want. -- Taku 06:27 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

This is a very good point. However, it's not always easy to judge what the anticipated name would be. Now honestly, there are more hits for "Utada Hikaru" than "Hikaru Utada", but admittedly, how many of these additional hits are from Japanese websites listing her English name as typically used in Japan? Furthermore, it's confusing to have mixed and matched names (Ayumi Hamasaki turns up more hits in Western style, but Hikaru Utada as Eastern style... That makes for confusing results for someone searching Wikipedia). And on top of that, popular sources such as the New York Times and Time magazine may favor the Western-style despite the popularity of Eastern-style on the web, not to mention changes due to introducing artists to the West, where Japanese artists will actually switch their names around to appeal to Western culture. (Time magazine however, is an odd case. See my response on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies), where I mention how Time magazine uses Hikki's name in Japanese-style, but her parents in Western-style)

Furthermore, though perhaps certain names, like Utada's, are normally listed in Japanese-style (In fact, I'll openly admit (now that I remember correctly) that Utada's stage name of "Utada Hikaru" was specifically chosen to be in Japanese-style), most other Japanese names nowadays are listed in Western-style (refer to your favorite Squaresoft/Nintendo/Sega/etc. game's manual for examples)

I primarily agree with Fear though, as the aim of the English Wikipedia IS for the English-speaking audience that is used to names that are in Western-style. Going with Japanese-style may be more correct and get more hits, but for people using Wikipedia to actually learn new things about Japanese/Oriental culture, having had no previous experience with Japanese naming, they are going to assume that "Utada Hikaru" has a first name of "Utada", and not "Hikaru", regardless of intent.

I've got a question though: does anyone remember how Hikki's name was listed in the Kingdom Hearts ending? Or do I need to go and beat that again to see? I do know that the manual lists her name as "Utada Hikaru."

I think the real question though (in Utada's case) is what name she will go under in America: her Japanese stage name "Utada Hikaru" (current leading contender for the name of the page at the moment), or her Western-style name "Hikaru Utada", as the name that she chooses to use over here will no doubt have an effect on what her article will have to be named (the alternate wording merely serving as a redirect)

-- Pipian 19:27 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

"that it was wrong to apply strict native Japanese naming on a non-Japanese source". Unfortunately, sometimes it is also wrong to apply strict English convension, which makes texts sound uncommon. I cannot say which one is right or wrong but I just want to say I am so irritatied by this difficulty. -- Taku 06:31 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

If a Japanese name is known in one format in english and one format in Japanese, then wiki must use the english one, just as if someone from the west is known in one form to Japanese users and one form to english users the Japanese version should be used on a Japanese wiki. The form should be name known by users of that wiki (alternative version known by others). It isn't a case of twisting japanese names to suit western ears. It is simply that if someone is clearly known to english speakers worldwide in a different manner to the native name use, then an english language sourcebook by definition must use the form that readers will understand. The problems we had over the naming of Japanese emperors highlights the problems that arise if one tries to apply Japanese format titles that aren't used by english readers to an english language sourcebook. In the end to make the pages comprehendable to english language users we had to leave the technically correct Japanese to one side and use a format that english speakers could follow. The same rule is applied throughout wiki. Only if the native form exists in english also can the native form be used. The same is true in French, German, Italian, Chinese, etc etc. If Utada Hikaru is known as Hikaru Utada in english. then Hikaru Utada should be used. If French speakers say Utada Hikaru, then that is what would be used on french wiki. Take another example: someone called Pól MacGabhann in gaelic. If they are known in english, French, german, Japanese etc as that, that is how those wikis would call him. But if though none in Ireland as Pól MacGabhann, he was known internationally as Paul Smith (the english translation), then Irish wiki would use Pól MacGabhann, english, french, japanese wikis would use Paul Smith. It would be utterly wrong and disrespectful to them to force Japanese wiki users to use Pól MacGabhann if they only ever knew him as Paul Smith. FearÉIREANN 20:36 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The problem, however, lies in what to do about the names which are well known as one way by a certain section of English speakers (Utada Hikaru as it stands now) versus a possibly different way by a growing section of new users (Hikaru Utada, if she presents herself as such in America instead of Utada Hikaru), as well as clarifying to the GENERAL populace (those unacquainted with the particular person) what the real first name is. The other problem is what to do about Japanese names that aren't generally presented in general American culture (refer to various Anime creators that haven't been heard of outside of the various niche fanbases that they appeal to (especially applicable to those which can only be found through fansubs) -- Pipian

A further example for confusing is the wikipage for B'z. I understand your position. But if there are pages this way _and_ the other way, (IMHO) it's very confusing for people, who have not a clue of japanese names. And no, I don't know a solution for that... We should change the world to a unique naming system :-). anobo 05:21 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Found the wikipage about japanese names: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Japanese) anobo 05:39 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

So are we just gonna go with that and call Ayumi Hamasaki Hamasaki Ayumi? (which admittedly turns up much fewer hits on Google, as her stage name is actually the former.) This is a very tricky matter, but if we can settle on a standard, it'll be nice (even if awkward for several names). The last thing that needs to be settled is how to inform the public as to name order, so they don't get the wrong idea as to name order? Ah, had Wikipedia gone with a last name comma first name order for biographies, it would have been so much easier ^^;; -- Pipian 06:25 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Biwa Hoshi and Blind Musicians

If anybody's in the mood, I'd appreciate it if somebody knowledgeable about Japanese music could check out the discussion of biwa hoshi on the blind musicians page, just to make sure nothing said there is particularly egregious. Thanks! NoahB 18:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Another Influence?

I'm a fan of the Ventures, and every biography I've read about them and every entry in music guides (like their biography at Allmusic.com) that I've seen says they were a big influence on Japanese rock and roll. Does anyone else think they are important enough to mention? I know it was pretty popular in Korea back then.