Talk:Mukden Incident

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[edit] Should be renamed as 918 Incident

[edit] Japanese control over their army

While the Japanese government likely did not collaborate in the Mukden Incident, I find it hard to believe the Japanese government's claim of being unable to restrain its army.

First, if the Japanese government had truly wished to stop the invasion of Manchuria, it could simply freeze fund and supply to the Kwantong Army. This is before the Japanese militant seized total control, so this action would have been possible.

Second, if Japanese government was opposed to invasion of Manchuria, why did they leave the League of Nations after being insisted to withdraw from Manchuria?

Partially because they precieved that they were being treated unfairly by the League of Nations. England was being colonial in India, France owned "French Indo-China", and Italy was cutting off large pieces of north Africa. When the League of Nations censured Japan for its actions in Manchuria, but said nothing about the colonialism of other nations many in Japan saw this as evidence of racism on the part of the LN. At that time several members of the Japanese government were convinced that racial war between the "white" and "yellow" races was inevitable. When the League refused to adopt a racial equality clause when it was first formed this helped convince many Japanese that the League only existed to help the "white" races.

Note that there's been cases where Japanese Government would say one thing and do another (well that actually applies to most government). Such as Pearl Harbour (Japanese had assured it would not attack USA days before attack on Pearl Harbour).

[edit] Sources?

It would be helpful if someone knowledgable could cite the evidence of 'major hanaya', with an online or offline source or whatever other evidence either way is existent

Isthatyou

[edit] Controversies About Who Blowed The Railway

A view without any historical evidence should not be put in the text. Just kidding: I have a view that the bomb was planted by Alien from Mars, should this view also be added into the text?

The original document used the term "Terrorists" for the suggestion of Chinese blowing up the railway. Using said term is biased and questionable in neutrality, as China and Japan were at war during that period.

Also the section "Controversy" disagrees with the section "The incident". The incident section clearly indicates the Japanese military was responsible for the blast. If there are sources and evidence to support this, Controversy should be removed. Otherwise these two sections need to be merged somewhat to indicate that the Japanese military plot is one "competing theory"

I request a rewrite of the controversy section of the page. It almost completly vets all evidence and possibility of the bomb being planted by any other party than the Imperial Japanese Army. The comparisons to "holocaust denial" and "Nanking Denial" are absured. In both cases, it is unbelievably obvious that it was commited by the Axis powers against civilians, and requires absured ideas to justify it, like to deny Auschwitz would require one to believe that the Red Army kept thousands of people starved (ok, that in and of itself is not hard to believe, considering the supply situation of the Soviets) and created amazingly accurate and confimable IDs for the 'fake' Jewish deportees, and managed to construct a large complex within one day of seizing the area, and to top it all off, managed to find German POW's willing to play the role of the 'non-existant' SS and Camp command. Under such rediculous requirements, it is obvious to all but the most rabid and ignorant individual that the camp must be true and the genocide it wreaked in full swing until it was seized.

I the Mukden incident, it is far more uncertin. Unlike the outrageous requirements for the Russians to fake Auschwitz, this is a very simple matter: the bomb, it is agreed by anyone, was real. The damage was real. There is one, and I mean ONLY one difference between the stories: who planted it.

This is where the finger pointing starts. The fact is, despite her victory over the Russian Tsar almost 3 decades before this happened, the Japanese felt cheated becuase they did not get ALL of Manchuria, and it was common knowledge that they wanted to conquer China and most of the Orient. Their spies, including the sinister and digusting Kenji Doihara, had been operating in China and most of the Far East of decades and everyone knew it, the major question was WHO. There was no question about the WHY, because anyone with passing knowledge would know the WHY. And on the other hand, China was furious about the Empire of the Rising Sun's Rising prestige and good relations with the occidental powers while they were seen as weak pushovers worth only for their vast resources and manpower. They still remembered their humiliation in cedeing Korea to the Japanese, and they were further infuriated when Manchuria, then occupied by the Russians but still considered Chinese, was annexed by the Empire. They also further were aggrivated by constant Japanese Imperialist ambitions on their border.

OK, so both sides have motive. And this is where the case drops off, as noone knows FOR SURE who planted the bomb. Mao raised hell in a purge in 1955 when one of his minister suggusted commerating the "freedom fighters of the motherland that dared to humiliate the Japanese Imperialists and destroy their precious railway."

The fact is, we also cannot rule out 3rd parties: a random Japanese radical who believed the only way to jumpstart the 'Greater East Asia Coprosperity Sphere' was to break into the guarded military outpost and blow up a section of track to frame the Chinese without the knowledge of the military, a Korean nationalist who sought to undermine the Japanese occupation of Korea and bring China into the fray on the side of Korea, a Soviet spy who sought to curtail the Japanese ambitions into Soviet Manchuria? Noone knows. I am not saying that the Japanese were innocent, they obviously were not. Even if they did not plan the bomb, they obviously exploited it for all it was worth by conquering Manchuria. I merely wish that it be rewritten to show that there is genuine skepticism and uncertinty about who planted the bomb. ELV

In fact, the Japanese were never short of "incidents" for the manchurian campaign. There was a paper I need to dig up that lists the number of engineered incidents that the kwantung army could have used as a pretext for the invasion. The number was at least in the hundreds if I recall correctly, and the most famous before mukden was perhaps wanbaoshan. What if the bomb was indeed chinese in origin as some claim, does a broken railway segment still justify the invasion of an area roughly equal in size to western europe? BlueShirts 04:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Did you read the last bookend of my summary? It obviously does NOT, as I pointed out above. However, I am not trying to make the case that Tokyo had all moral justifications of conquering Manchuria. They did not. The case I wish to make is that noone knows who planted the bomb itself, be it IJA, KMT, CCP, USSR, SNLF, Korean rebel, Chinese patriot, crazy Japanese nationalist, or Mr. Czarnik the drunken runaway bellhop fron Warsaw. WE. CANNOT. PROVE. THE. IJA. PLANTED. THE. BOMB. DEFINITIVLY! I am not trying to exonerate the Japanese overreaction in the aftermath, I am trying to say we need a rewrite of the controversy section to show that we genuinly do not know who planted the bomb. Just because the Japanese were planning it does not mean that they were the ones who did it. It just means they were the ones who PROBABLY did it. ELV

This article and a few others say it's been long settled that the Japanese planted the bomb, especially from the IMTFE records. Misguided Intelligence: Japanese Military Intelligence Officers in the Manchurian Incident, September 1931 The Journal of Military History, Vol. 58, No. 3. (Jul., 1994), pp. 445-460. Point of contention is that how much autonomy did the kwantung army exercise from tokyo in carrying out its actions in manchuria. BlueShirts 21:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Should we really be putting so much weight on the IMTFE records? Everything I've ever heard about the post-war trials in Japan suggests that they were shoddily run to be charitable. Kensai Max 21:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no opinion about who blew up the railway and don't care in the least. It may be indeed probable that the Japanese were the culprets; what seems to me more important is the use that has since been made of the incident in the respective propaganda of both sides. However, the word "possibly" was removed without justification or comment on 2006-11-05, and later that day a ^{[citation needed]} template (requesting citation) was removed from the same accusation again without justification or comment. Insistance on suppression of any doubt and refusal to allow requests for citation or evidence is clear POV and smacks of idiological POV. I object to this. Such behavior casts the whole article into doubt, and is not good for Wikipedia. O'RyanW (☺ ₪) 21:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay than, since nobody else wanted to clean up the controversy part, I began it. I removed some of the more propaganda-like parts (ie everybody who questions Mukden is an eeevvvieelll Nazi-Imperialist (and I am not exaggerating that as much as some may think)) but I left the information that could be actually USEFUL (even if relevence is foggy) alone. I, to be quite honest, would have to say that if I were to hazard an honest to goodness guess, this was written by somebody from the far-left, probably a card-carrying member of the CCP itself, though to be fair I cannot prove that asides from gut instinct. Now, the article previously acted like a gigantic smear against Mukden skeptics everywhere, equating those who raise questions about the airtightness of the Japanese guilty verdict with Neo-Nazis and Fascists. Some of that is justified, as a sizable amount of skeptics are the same radicals that declare that Aushwitz was a fabrication, that the Final Solution was too lenient, and do all this while reading verses from their holy book The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. However, the entire skeptic community ranges from the ignorant radicals on the Right to many diehard Liberals on the Left. Me? I personally am 99% sure that Mukden WAS committed by the Japanese. It is that 1% that prevents it from being 'definitive.' The point that I am trying to make is not to exonerate the Japanese Imperialists (that would be a waste of my time even if I wished to) but to say that the only people who know who planted the bomb is/are the person/people who did it and (if they exist) the person/people who gave the order to do it. And before anybody accuses me of being a Right-Wing Conservative Radical, let me say that I AM a diehard Conservative Republican from the US, and a group of thugs from the local campus' chapter of the National Alliance certainly though I was a radical Jew because I (Gasp) blamed Black September for Munich. They should be getting out of Community service in a few weeks. Does that have any bearing on the discussion? No it does not, but I just wish to get that out in the open before somebody points the finger and calls "racist!" My point is, many people around the globe and across the political spectrum are advocating the idea that though the Japanese ALMOST CERTAINLY did it, but there is no proof thus far that can stand up to any amount of independant fact-checking that DEFINITIVLY proves Japan did it. ELV

You are also a persistent vandal, that does not read their own talk page: User talk:71.146.158.221. Gsd2000 13:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Excusie Mua? I am a persistant contributer, and like anybody else I have made mistakes for which I have APOLIGIZED FOR. And I most certainly DO read my own talk page, as you are learning while reading this. The Previous controversy page was a massive smear against not just the radicals who would deny the existence of Anti-Semetism in the Third Reich if their party leadership told them too, but of ANYBODY who may think that culpibility for Mukden is impossible (as of now) with the evidence we have been allowed to see. I am not, nor will I EVER; try to exonerate Imperial Japan for its role in the most devastating War the world has ever known. What I ask is is there DEFINITIVE, 100%, Independantly-confirmed evidence that Mukden was committed by Japan. And if there is and you have, say, an antique film reel of the Generals of the Kwantung Army gathering around drinking sake in a carnival like enviroment complete with a massive cheer as the railway is blown up, than to be quite frank, I would like to see it. I am dead serious, if you have evidence that apparently nobody else knows exists, than I would like to see it. And IF it proves legit, I would be the first to withdraw my argument and concede the point. However, I doubt that you do. Thus, debate on the issue of who planted the bomb at Mukden will continue untill somebody is able to assuage the doubts of the vast majority of resonable people one way or another. ELV

(Apologies to everyone else, I have not been able to communicate with this contributor anywhere else - they did not respond on their talk page). ELV - firstly, it's spelt "excusez-moi" - it's French - but as your talk page states, you have a history of making up history. For example, here [1], here [2] (for which you got blocked) and here [3]. These are downright misleading lies, and a just three examples of many. Have you ever gone back to the articles you have "improved" to see if your edits have stood the test of time? Well, they haven't - virtually all of your edits are immediately reverted by other contributors, because what you write is patent nonsense, or because you change a long-standing article's facts without explaining why or citing sources, or because you write the most awful, unencyclopaedic and badly spelled English (e.g. capitalizing words mid-sentence for emphasis). Gsd2000 12:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, this is your talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:71.146.158.221. Ever wondered why when you go to Wikipedia it says "You have new messages"? Gsd2000 12:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I "KNOW" Why I see the message sign often. I HAVE read my own discussion page. I have made mistakes, I admit it, and I have apoligized via e-mail. Also, you claim that "all" of my edits have been reversed. Take a look at Oskar Potiorek. At The Balkan front of WWI. On the Battle of Vittorio in Italy. Note to Gsd2000, not double checking things makes you look inept (I should know, I have sometimes been the victum of such things as haste) but spreading info you KNOW is false makes you look like a (censored by the poster.) Also, I would LOVE to know about my abuses on THIS topic. Can you cite any? I would honestly love to hear back from you. Take your time. ELV

(Again, apologies to everyone else).This is not the place for this kind of 1:1 discussion: you should be posting on my talk page, and then I will respond on your talk page. I'm not going to continue this discussion on this page any further with you. Gsd2000 12:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this IS inherently linked with this article, as you have not taken up my offer to ID any of my "abuses" on this thread, as I invited you to. I do not believe that my political bias (and yes, I fully admit that I, like the rest of humanity, is biased) and more on the fact that I have yet to hear a rebuttal to the ACTUAL ISSUE: The Legit doubt that scientifically, there could be any number of factions who would like seeing the railway blown. THe overwheliming Japanese Saber-rattling and Circumstancial evidence leads one to believe that it is probable that the Japanese did it, but there is not 100% proof of it. Do I believe Japan is innocent? No I do not. However, I beleive that as of now, there is no direct evidence to completely and totally verify that the Japanese were guilty for this, So we have to do the thankless job of the devil's advocate (a fitting term considering the horrers of Japanese Imperialism). However, you have refused to continue the discussion and have instead wheeled off to cite my instances with the Wiki editors. Is it fair to bring them up? Yes it is, as everyone have flaws, and it is A-OK to cite my previous problems. However, you have carried on to the point that in you argument, it has completely eclipsed the debate, which is contrary to the reason of the is fourm. So no, I will NOT argue with you about it on you talk site, because THIS. IS. THE. ISSUE. NOT. MY. RECORD. So if you refuse to get back on the debate and continue to go "nuh-uh." than YOU. WILL. HAVE. SURRENDERED. THE. FIELD. Sinple as that. I look forward to any posts. ELV

[edit] League of Nations

Could someone add a section on actions of the League of Nations during the crisis? From my own knowledge, I know they dispached a team of investigators who took a long time to issue a moral condemnation. Can someone verify this as I am not certain this is true. Poorsod 15:05, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV and sourcing

This article says that the identity of the bombers is controversial, but earlier reports in detail that the Japanese army did so. This contradiction should be reconciled. Also, the article does not have any footnotes providing documentation for any of its claims. -- Beland 23:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Hear hear. Is all this direct comparison with Holocaust denial and criticism of Western leaders for criticizing the Chinese for opening a museum designed specifically to stoke anti-Japanese, nationalistic sentiment really NPOV? Kensai Max 21:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The rambling about neo-Nazis does seem a little extraneous at any rate. 86.137.138.9 10:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

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