Talk:Muhammad Ali

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Contents

[edit] Repeated Sections

I am removing the repeated sections in the article and someone keeps reverting it back to the previous state. --prashidi 23:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I apologize. There was an IP-hopping vandal removing random chunks out of the article right before you came along, and I got triggerhappy. I'm sorry for targeting your edits.  E. Sn0 =31337= Talk 23:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem, just wanted to fix the page, and I did not know how to communicate with you since I believed the comments section would be enough of an explanation. --prashidi 00:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Book Suggestion

Quite a good book about Ali's life, in almost a story form

The Greatest Muhammad Ali by Walter Dean Myers

LOL, we're reading in class, hope you enjoy. -Wolfie001 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Computerized fight?

What in the heck does this sentence mean?

"In 1969, Ali fought Rocky Marciano in computerized fight, known as, The Superfight: Marciano vs. Ali."

Aside from having no idea what a "computerized fight" would be in 1969, it's also bad grammar (Ali fought... in computerized fight...) Not "in (A) computerized fight"?

dammit, it was a FICTIONAL fight, ok, produced by a computer, and it was A computarized fight!!! if you dont know things than DONT make statements, cuz You or Us dont no what Youre talkin about!!! --T00C00L 13:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birthplace and early life

Needs to be some information here. I'd add some, but I don't know any :(

Okay, I (I being the guy who posted the comment above) added his birthplace. That's a start.


[edit] Why is there no mention of Ali or When We Were Kings?

It seems that these two movies based on his life should be included...when doing a search for merely "Ali" you don't get a disambiguation page either. You have to know to search Ali (film).

Hi. I'm about to add in a line about the way that Ali "sung his own praises." The wiki as it stands implies, in accordance with the conventional wisdom, that Ali was merely arrogant and cocky. But, he has stated before that he developed the self-praise-singer strategy as a youngster, when he realized that acting like a braggart would draw out the largest crowds to watch his fights. He has said that he'd intentionally bait everyone in that way, knowing that everybody would come to witness the fight and see him get beat up. I can't remember the source where I read this, it was a biographical coffee-table type book, with all kinds of quotes from Ali interspersed among photographs and textual details of his career. I can't remember the source, but I'm adding it to the wiki anyway. It's an important detail to understand Ali's character correctly.

An event mentioned in this article is a June 27 selected anniversary

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I intend to expand on Ali's professional career soon, but obviously if anyone else wants to then go ahead. Mswake 16:01 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

Nice formatting fixes, Zoe. Ed Poor 16:15 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

Please finish this off - there are some good links on about.com to provide source material, and also on http://www.worldofbiography.com/9118-Muhammad%20Ali/ [formerly top-biography.com]an excellent source. Don't copy and paste from them.

Regarding the Egyptian leader, there are various spellings including Muhammad Ali, Mohammed Ali, Mehemet Ali, Mehmet Ali, right now I will change the links to Mehemet Ali (Egypt) as that has more links in the Wikipedia, later we can move or redirect it if necessary. ¬ Dori 21:22, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Islam

Didn't Ali convert to orthodox Islam, like Malcolm X? I'd like to see more about this in the article. Jdavidb 20:19, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)


I'm working on how best to address Ali's religious views in the article, and may be making more changes in the near future. Right now information on religion in the article is scattered and occasionally misleading. I'm going to lay out what I've got now here in the talk page before incorporating it, and hope yins can help. Ali's religious history seems notable enough to deserve its own section - possibly a cleanup/rewrite of the "changes his name section" seperating it somewhat from his fight history. At the moment, any information present in the article is awkwardly spliced into a number of places based partly on chronology. The current placement of the Name section seems to be mostly in place to explain the references to the change in the preceding section on the Patterson fight. Although this preserves the narrative flow from the Liston to Patterson fights, it leads to his entire career from 66-69 as well as his opposition to being drafted during the Vietnam War all being under a heading solely about his name change. Whether placed chronologically or thematically, it seems to me that the issues regarding Vietnam, being stripped of his championship belt, and the like should be a distinct section - this string of related events are fairly significant in the course of Ali's life and are fairly well known, if possibly not entirely accurately. Ali's resistance to the draft was due in part to to his religious beliefs, but it shouldn't be lumped into a section on religion any more than it should necessarily be lumped into the section about his professional career. To be honest, the article has some serious structural flaws from the beginning (e.g., the rumble and Thrilla being a subsection w/in Fight of the Century section) that make it different to work with. As soon as I figure out how to fit them in without damaging the structural integrity of the article, I'll get started on this stuff. The main issues, for me, that need reworking or clarification are these: 1) Ali's original conversion to NOI/BM; 2) The associated changing of Ali's name; 3)Ali & Vietnam; 4)Ali's conversion to Sunni Islam. I've got decent sources on most of these, but the article doesn't need added content nearly as much as it needs a change in structure. One example: Ali's second religious conversion was previously mentioned in two spots (see my changes, a very temporary solution), neither of which is entirely appropriate on the basis of both chronology or article structure (and both of which have fairly awkward diction - presumably the author was having as much trouble working with the article as I am). I'll... see what I can do about this. I'd appreciate any help. Door 05:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC) I've made some changes (as I said, mostly structural thus far) and tossed in a bit re #4 at the relevant chronological point (actually, roughly the same place I'd excised it from because I didn't like how it fit). I'm going to step back from it for a bit, but it still could use some work. Door 09:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean? "The adoption of this name symbolized his new identity as a Muslim, and he retained the name even after his later conversion to Islam." His later conversion? If he was already a Muslim at the time, how could he convert to Islam LATER? Perhaps this might have been written by someone who doesn't understand that a Muslim is someone who is a follower of Islam? Or is there something I'm missing? --Jaardon 15:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Youre an IDIOT, first Ali converted to the religion of Nation of Islam and <that is not real Islam as they do not believe in Muhammad being the last and true prophet of islam, and they dont even follow the Quran, and they Believe that Their Founder (of Nation of Islam) is the incrnation of God, which is not true and Islam teaches none of this!!!That is why he converted to SUNNI Islam.
THe above unsigned comment was added by T00C00L

[edit] Gold medal

Ali's story on the fate of his 1960 Olympic gold medal has wavered over the years. Recently, he's been more likely to say that it was simply lost. Might be worth noting alongside the story of it being tossed in the Ohio River, if someone can find something definitive. Bill Lumbergh Aug 27, 2004

Casual reader opinion: it would be nice to have some more info about the present-day Ali

I support the Casual reader's opinion -Wolfie001 20:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I know Hunter Thompson claimed that Ali threw it in a river in one of his books (Songs of the doomed?) - if true, doesn't that warrent a mention?


There should be something about the gold medal. There is an account in his autobiography (The Greatest - I think) plus the replacement of it during half time of a Dream Team basketball game during the 1996 Olympics. How can these not rate a mention?

[edit] Ali's Irish Ancestry

Has anyone got the goods on this? I am aware that his great-great grandfather or great-great-great grandfather was an Irishman from Co. Clare who emigrated to America in the 1850's, fell in love with and married a black woman. Ali does not seem proud of this as I have read of him on at least one occasion see it more in terms of a white man raping a black woman rather than the love match it seems to have being. I'm not drawing attention to this just because of his Irish descent (though I am delighted as an Irishman to learn of it!) but also because I think it sheds interesting light on Ali himself. Fergananim

This seems to back thing up:

[edit] Awful First Paragraph

Man, that first paragraph is awful. It's so repetitive and replete with bad grammar it needs to be completely rewritten.

So very true. Someone fix it, now. Kine 04:26, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I third the motion. I think someone who is a cross between P.T. Barnum and Al Sharpton wrote that first paragraph. Certainly "The Greatest" deserves better.Hokeman 01:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Um, you guys have all the power as any other person, so, um, fix it yourself -Wolfie001 20:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Float like a butterfly etc / Superman

The article doesn't explain where the famous "float like a butterly, sting like a bee" quote comes from, and it's quite hard to look that kind of thing up on the internet definitively. Also, wasn't there a mid-1970s Superman spin-off comic in which Ali and Superman had a fight, and then teamed up to defeat... Mr Mykzlptzk (or whoever)?-Ashley Pomeroy 09:56, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Certainly not, their opponent were the Scrubbs, a sort of made up aliens. Ali wins both the fight against Superman and the one against the alien Champion, but it is clear in the rest of the comic that Superman (with the powers he retains under a Red sun far more dangerous) and Ali had agreed to fix the fight, it's not even very clear whether the Superman Ali defeated is the real one, rather than Bundini Brown (Kal and Bundini had changed places to fool the aliens, but whether that was before or after the fight between Superman and Muhammad Ali is not revealed) (Have the book here).

Theodore W. 11:32, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

How about giving that book an article of its own? Theodore W. 17:44, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


The saying refered to his style/technique. His speed and grace in boxing, being light on his feet ("float like a butterfly...") and his quick, punishing jabs ("...sting like a bee"). Hope that helps. -Wolfie001 21:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wepner?

I'm reading the page as someone interested in Ali and not someone with much knowledge of him, so when I want to put Chuck Wepner in there somewhere, I don't know where it would go. I would appreciate someone more knowledgeable adding him in. -Denkc 05:17 Jul 13, 2005 (PDT)

[edit] Done

Did a short paragraph on the Wepner fight. According to Stallone, Wepner and not Chuvalo was the primary inspiration for Rocky -- afaik, the main person who claimed that the Chuvalo fight played a major factor in "Rocky" was Chuvalo himself. I cited authority for it.

On that general topic, there is quite a bit of undocumented assertion in the article of the type strongly discouraged by Wiki's NPOV policy. (Wiki calls them "weasel words" but I don't like the term, as it sounds too negative and implies intentional misrepresentation.) There is almost no documentation of facts, and a great deal of opinion that is unattributed. I realize that lack of attribution usually comes from the amount of time it takes to run down sources and deal with Wiki's Byzantine referencing system, but some work is badly needed on this.

Also the article overall needs some balance to achieve NPOV.

[edit] Racist Vandalism?

I'd like to alert those more familiar with both this page and to Ali to the following edit: [1] The edit could hardly be more significant in its scope, yet it seems to have not been noticed, and indeed is still there right now. The original diner story is widely cited elsewhere, not least in Ali's own autobiography, _The Greatest_. I'll leave it those of you involved in this page to make the changes you feel are appropriate. In mentionioning this, I note that the editor who made the change also added references to a white power group elsewhere in Wikipedia Zebra murders. Ferg2k 06:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted this vandalism myself. [2] Ferg2k 15:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Found and removed as irrelevant another reference to this from 129.24.95.222 in early part of page. [forgot to sign this] Ferg2k 07:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cassius Marcellus Clay

Ezeu, you were correct in noting that the link to Cassius Marcellus Clay was circular. Unfortunatly that was due to a bit of a mess when I was merging two articles about him. The link works now, and it seems to be relevant... Cheers --Bookandcoffee 02:52, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

HIS STYLE Mohammad Ali has a highly unorthodox style for a heavy weight boxer. He carried his hands to his sides rather than to his face to defend him from his opponents blows. He punched to the head unlike most boxers. added by (shabbir bokhari)

[edit] Hajj

Does anybody know when Muhammad Ali-Haj actually made the Hajj?

I dont know when, but rest assured that he has. It would be funny otherwise - Ali can afford a ticket, he is a devout muslim and he has been to Saudi Arabia several times. If he has not made the Hajj, then we are on to a scoop. / Ezeu 05:47, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
During his 1964 UN visit, he reportedly said that he wanted to visit Mecca, but he certainly didn't make the hajj with Malcolm X. A biography says that he went in January of 1972. This picture claims to be of Ali in Mecca on a "New Year's" (sic) trip, which fits. He appears to be barefoot and wearing the ihram. There's possibly a doctrinal issue of whether a hajj made previous to conversion (NOI is not, strictly speaking, regarded as one of the Muslim sects, and this was three years previous to Ali's second conversion) qualifies, but I think that it would since it was made as a pilgrimage it would count. I can't find what month Dhu al-Hijjah was in '72, so technically it could even just be umrah. For the time being, I think it would be safe to call the '72 trip hajj. I can't find any proof that he's returned to Mecca since, but he may well have. It's highly unlikely that he made the hajj before '72. Door 08:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phantom Punch??

He knocked out Liston in the first round of their rematch in Lewiston, Maine on May 25, 1965, albeit controversially; as few observers saw the "phantom punch" that floored Liston --Can someone explain better that the wiki did??

[edit] I found somthing or it could be a prank

Hello there I found somthing on Sonny Liston Discussion it's weird, or a PRANK. Saying he is Mr. X

[edit] Who is Anthony Pratt?

This article says: "Despite this, he remains a hero to millions around the world. In 1985, he was called upon to negotiate for the release of kidnapped Americans in Lebanon. In 1996, he had the honor of lighting the Olympic flame in Atlanta, Georgia. Every public appearance by Ali is treasured, including his appearance at the 1998 AFL Grand Final, where NFL Hall of Famer Anthony Pratt recruited him to watch the game."

But there is no one with the name Anthony Pratt on the NFL's hall of fame website. pro-football-reference.com and databasefootball.com do not list any players with that name either.

[edit] Ali son of Odessa grandaughter of Abe O'Grady of Ennis, Ireland

Just added the link to Ali's maternal Irish roots. Does anyone else know anything about Abe Grady's life in America, and the subsequent history of his family? The people in Ireland by the way were thrilled to bits when the heard about the connection. Fergananim 13:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ali's visit to the Soviet Union

I have read an article upon the visit of Ali to the Soviet Union in April 1978 (Tashkent), wherein he had been quoted as praising the Soviet social and political system, including lack of unemployment and racial discrimination. Is the quote genuine, or was it a propaganda snip? Silvermane 21:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marathon Involvement

Please provide reason before deleting my bit on his involvement with the LA Marathon. Nobody informed me of the reason why that was deleted. --Cumbiagermen 08:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is in desperate need of clean-up

A great man like Ali deserves a great article. There are all kinds of errors- misspellings, factual errors, syntax errors, punctuation errors, etc.-in this article. Someone needs to get it right and then protect it. Hokeman 19:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strange link?

I removed this from below the "Professional career" section:

By Joshua A. Logue [3]

The link makes no mention of "Joshua A. Logue" (who he?) - was this just a test/minor vandalism? Camillus (talk) 14:55, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Real name

Ins't ali his real name

I agree. I'm not a very seasoned editor, but I think Ali himself would disagree with the "Real Name" line in the infobox. -Spudcrazy

"Birth name"? "Given name"? What fits best? Or why not just put "Muhammad Ali (Cassius Marcellus Clay)"? Peyna 01:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


To answer this, Muhammad Ali was given to him by Elijah Muhammad, leader of the Nation of Islam at the time. However, since he did get the proper name chance with the proper documentation, you could, I guess, call it his "real" name -Wolfie001 21:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

like didnt he keep beating his opponent in a (professional) fight whan his opponent kept callin him cascius clay, cuz ali refuses to recognize this name!!! --T00C00L 13:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fixed some vandalism

Some smartass decided to put Muhammad Ali 'the gay wanker of all time'. Just to point out to the mods who should be watchin this stuff.

[edit] Othorodox or Unotherodox

It says that Muhammad Ali had a Unothorodox type of boxing but on his stats it says he had an Otherodox type. Please Discuss I dont know —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.201.211.242 (talk • contribs).

I imagine the box is referring to more general categories of boxing "style" such as someone who hits hard, but doesn't throw as many punches or something who throws a million punches but isn't concerned about how hard they land. Ali fits into what is sometimes called "pure boxer" or "long range" category, so I'm assuming that's what the infobox is referring to as "orthodox." When the text describes his fighting style as "highly unorthodox" it is referring to other aspects of his fighting style. Even though his general fighting style might have fit into the orthodox category, the way he moved around and other things he did made it just as unorthodox. Feel free to find a better way to clarify this and put it in the article. Peyna 20:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Ali's style was unorthodox because he broke many cardinal rules in boxing, ie holding his hands low, backing straight up, not throwing to the body, and most importantly he was very unorthodox in that he was a Heavyweight who relied mostly on his Middleweight-like speed. But his stance is orthodox because he was right handed. If you look up Floyd Mayweather Jr's article for example (current Welterweight champion) you'll see it says he has an orthodox style because he's right handed, if you look up Antonio Tarver's article (former Light Heavyweight champion) you'll see his style says southpaw because he's left handed-6/27/06

[edit] Exact dates of Marriage and Divorces

If anyone finds out from a reliable source the exact date of his marriage to Veronica and the exact dates of his divorces from Belinda and Veronica, please feel free to plug them into the Wikitable in the personal section. There is a great deal of conflicting information out there.--Hokeman 02:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vegetarian?

Hi, can anyone please provide sources that prove that Muhammad Ali is vegetarian? Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni 06:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't have any definitive proof, but I'm a Seventh-Day Adventist and they attribute some importance to living healthily. That isn't to say that it's doctrine to be vegetarian-some Adventists eat "clean" meats but a guy I worked with at La Sierra University used to work at another Adventist university, Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan and he told me that Muhammad on several occasions came into the university cafeteria and ordered food there and told this man that he enjoyed the vegetarian fare that the university offered (probably the first and last compliment a university cafeteria will ever receive). Incidentally this man also said that Muhammad was exceedingly friendly and amiable and chatted to him. He left a very good impression on this man. Apparently Muhammad had a house near Berrien Springs, Michigan (where Andrews is) during the (I believe) mid '80s.

If we do not have any definitive proof then I say that we remove the claim until we do have proof. Dinobrya

[edit] "NFL Hall of Famer" Anthony Pratt

"NFL Hall of Famer" Anthony Pratt does not exist? There is an AFL (Australian) Hall of Famer named Bob Pratt, but no Pratt at all in the NFL Hall of Fame? Lunch with Jason 18:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

this is in reference to the "Retirement" section. If this refers to MA watching a game of Australian Football in 1996, it seems pretty inconsequential, and potentially should be removed. At the very least, I would think it should be corrected (or removed until corrected?) Lunch with Jason 18:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roma Gypsy knocked down Muhammed Ali

http://www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/_travellers/boxing.html

[edit] References

I notice that this article on a major sports figure only has two references. I would like to nominate this for Version 0.5, but the shortage of references would prevent it passing. Could the people who wrote this article please add in their sources, preferably as inline references? Such an important person deserves a good quality article. Thanks! Walkerma 20:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Missing High Water Marks

Nice article, but I was surprised not to find a couple of noteworthy events. If no one else can supply reliable reports, perhaps I will do research and make the entries:

  • President Jimmy Carter naming Muhammad Ali as ambassador to India.
  • Role as chairman (?) to the Olympics in Atlanta
  • MA throwing his Olympic gold medal away into a river as a protest of American racism. MA being supplied a replacement medal many years later.

--Philopedia 08:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ali's legacy

I added some things to this section, just wanted to leave some citations since wikipedia is strict about citing everything. Ali won the Sportsman of the Year award in 74, you can look it up in the wikipedia article on that award. His Ring Magazine Fight and Fighter of the Year awards can be looked up here

http://www.ibhof.com/ibhfrmag.htm

-8:08 PM 6/27/06

[edit] PHOTO CAPTION

I'm not registered so I can't edit the page, but the photo caption "Ali taunts...Joe Frazier" is completely inaccurate. If you watch the fight footage, Ali never taunted him, and you won't even be able to pick up that image. The photographer has said it was a miracle/accident that he got that the way he did (and that it became iconic). The only thing shown in that picture is Ali finishing his punch and pulling back; there's no taunting that took place and to suggest otherwise is inaccurate and misleading.

[edit] Leon Spinks section is incoherent

First is says that Ali lost to Spinks, then it describes him winning. Presumably, two fights are being conflated? I know nothing of the history here; could somebody who does, please fix it? Uucp 16:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I do, hereby, advocate these changes:

I do, hereby, advocate these changes:


Named Junior after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., who was named for the 19th century abolitionist and politician Cassius Clay. Ali later changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam and subsequently converted to orthodox Sunni Islam in 1975.

Named Junior after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., who was named for the 19th century abolitionist and politician Cassius Marcellus Clay (abolitionist). Ali later changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam and subsequently converted to orthodox Sunni Islam in 1975.


Which looks better?:

| Louisville, Kentucky, USA |-

|-

|- ! Style | Orthodox box, boxing, boxer |- ! colspan="2" style="background-color: #d0d0d0; text-align: center;" | Boxing record |-

or:

| Louisville, Kentucky, USA |-

|-

|- ! Style | Orthodox Sunni Islam |- ! colspan="2" style="background-color: #d0d0d0; text-align: center;" | Boxing record |-

Thank You.

Hopiakuta 19:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Books and films

There should be a mention of his autobiography and I think he also starred in a biographical movie playing himself. There are so many documentaries about him but some references should be included.

Joseph —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.84.58.210 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Edits

I made some edits to the article. Doug Jones and Henry Cooper did not weigh 25 pounds less than Ali, or Clay at the time, though Cooper was close to that. I thought it was POV in terms of the Jones fight, it claimed that Jones beat Clay to the punch "throughout the fight." I disagree with this, and I thought Clay deserved the close decision based on the early rounds. Either way, I don't think the article should take sides, considering how close the fight was. The last thing I edited was about the Liston fight, where it says that Clay had a "height and reach" advantage. He was taller, but Liston had the reach advantage. All of this height/weight/reach stuff can be found on boxrec.com. I might make more edits later.-8/30/06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.163.100.137 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Diffrent picture

Can someone get a diffrent picture of Muhammad Ali. The one that is up is a old version of him. Wouldn't someone regonize him as his younger self? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.8.123.196 (talk • contribs).


[edit] Quoting problem

The quote about no vietnamese calling him a nigger is actually a popular misquoting, according to Wikiquote. I'll add this information, if no one oppose it. --achab 12:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added on to both Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis, discuss

Muhammad Ali's page says that he is widely regarded to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, while Joe Louis's page says the same thing. Something needs to be fixed. -Slash-

There is a lot of dispute about wheter Ali or Louis should be rated as the greatest heavyweight of all time, so for anyone to write that either is "widely regarded" to be the best is false. And this unsupported assertion should certainly not be included in the introduction to the article. MKil 20:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)MKil

I'm restoring it. Both can be widely regarded to be the greatest, and both are. However, I will leave the six to three fix -- not sure how I let that one slide. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 00:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you. One, only one can be the "greatest." And if one is widely regarded as such, the other cannot be widely regarded as such. Furthermore, this "widely regarded" language is a violation of the Wiki POV requirements:

In articles about works of art, games, TV series and other subjects without estimable values, Wiki editors will often try to pass on POV opinions by writing under a pseudonym (e.g., "some fans think Allan Holdsworth is the greatest guitarist ever"). Unless you can provide a survey, a review or any similar type of source for your praise, it does not belong in a Wikipedia article. The correct way to phrase the sentence about Holdsworth would be: "in 1999, the readers of Jazz Guitarist voted Allan Holdsworth top guitarist of the year" (this is just an example, the magazine does not actually exist).

MKil 18:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)MKil

Well, I know and everyone knows that the text is correct, isn't POV, and for the good of the article, I'm going to keep restoring it. It's unfortunate that you want to keep removing it, but I'm not backing down. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 22:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Instead of playing the childish game of deleting and restoring, let's find some common ground. I think that Ali is the best heavyweight champ in history. However, I also recognize there is some dispute about this. All I'm asking for is some outside verification for this claim. Ring magazine, for instance, in both 1994 and 1998 acknowledged Ali as the best ever. Use that ranking instead of the "widely acknoweldged" cite. What my main gripe is that the fans of certain boxers will say that Mike Tyson, Joe Lous, Muhammad Ali, Jack Johson, Rocky Marciano, et. al, is "widely acknowledged as the greatest heavyweight of all time." No, that's incorrect. There is a lot of debate about which HW champ is the greatest. Most say that it's Ali. A lot of old-timers say that it's Louis. Nat Fleischer says that it's Jack Johnson. To evade the issue by saying that "it's widely acknowledged that Muhammad Ali is the greatest" is both incorrect and an insult to a lot of old-time boxing writers. Just source the material and I'll be happy. MKil 04:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)MKil

Stevietheman, please quit making unsupported revisions. Saying that it is "widely known" Ali is the best HW champ is a evasion of the NPOV rules of this site. To claim otherwise is to either purposely be ignoring the rules or be ignorant of boxing history. As I referenced in one of my many revisions you have changed, look at the Joe Louis talk page for a discussion of the greatest HW champ. To save you the time, I'll just cut and paste what someone on that page put up (from Cox's Corner http://coxscorner.tripod.com/louis.html):

Most boxing historians rate Joe Louis number one or number two on their list of the greatest heavyweights of all time. Eddie Futch, who devised the strategy that defeated Ali for both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, considers Joe Louis to be the greatest of the all time heavies. The late editor of the Ring, Nat Loubet, rated Joe Louis number one on his list of heavyweight greats. Boxing historians such as Dan Daniel, Lew Eskin, Ted Carroll, and Bill Gallo all consider Joe Louis to be the greatest heavyweight champion. John Durant, author of "The Heavyweight Champions" rated him as the # 1 heavyweight of all time. Bert Sugar rates Joe Louis # 2 at heavyweight. The Aug. 1980 issue of the Ring rated Louis as the second greatest fighter in history behind only Sugar Ray Robinson. The Holiday 1998 issue of the Ring rated Louis second behind Muhammad Ali at heavyweight. Former heavyweight champ and boxing historian Mike Tyson, in the HBO video, "Tyson and the Heavyweights" (1988), said of Louis, "It's difficult to see anyone beating him even Muhammad Ali". Cox's Corner rates Joe Louis # 1 among All Time Heavyweights.

In light of this, to keep saying that Ali is "widely regarded" as the greatest HW champ of all time is to simply ignore the evidence. If you are going to say that he's the greatest, then use a source for that (such as the Holiday 1998 issue of Ring). Don't claim that it's the consensus in the boxing world that Ali is the greatest, because it certainly is not.

Furthermore, when you revert my revisions you also restore a passage I removed about the first Liston fight being "widely regarded" (there are those weasel words again) as a fix. That statement is certainly false. If you insist on reverting my edits, at least don't revert that one. MKil 12:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)MKil

Thank you for writing a novel on the subject. At any rate, we can state with full factuality that there is dispute between various ranking lists where some place Ali as the greatest of all time and others that do not. And the same applies to Joe Louis. Right? Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 17:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think Ali was the greatest Heavyweight of all time, and I think it's absurd to argue otherwise... but that's opinion, nothing more. I think the article can say, however, that many people regard Ali to be the best Heavyweight of all time, and the Joe Louis article can say the same about Louis. It's like arguing Mozart vs. Beethoven; it would be false to say that either one is regarded by all people as the best composer of all time; but it would not be wrong to say that many people would say that of one or the other.-11/28/06

[edit] Cultural depictions of Muhammad Ali

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 14:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV issue?

It seems to me as if there's a negative slant on Ali in the article. Note the following passages "He defeated such boxers as Tony Esperti, Jim Robinson (who weighed 160 pounds when he fought Clay), Donnie Fleeman (who had broken ribs going into the fight but fought Clay anyway), Alonzo Johnson, George Logan, Willi Besmanoff, Lamar Clark (who had won his previous 40 bouts by knockout), Doug Jones, and Henry Cooper. Among Clay's victories were versus Sonny Banks (who knocked him down during the bout), Alejandro Lavorante, and the aged Archie Moore " and "Clay then won a disputed 10 round decision over Doug Jones, who, despite being lighter than Clay, staggered Clay as soon as the fight started with a right hand, and beat Clay to the punch continually during the fight." and "Clay's next fight was against Britain's Henry Cooper, who knocked Clay down with a left hook near the end of the fourth round. Clay was given extra time between rounds immediately after being floored by Cooper, a blatant violation of boxing rules."

It seems as if whomever wrote this is like "Muhammad Ali won, but..." but the "but..." is a very one sided statement. 74.138.210.206 22:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is a connection between boxing and parkinson's disease. For example Bruno Lauzi was a singer, not boxer, and yesterday he died because of this ill. Jack 9:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the claim that Ali (Clay) received extra time after being knocked down by Henry Cooper; this is a myth, more or less. Ali's glove was torn, Angelo Dundee ripped it a bit further to try and get Ali more time, which was a violation of the rules. However the myth says that Ali received anywhere from a 30 second to a five minute break because of this situation, when in fact Ali got about a 6 second break because of it, and the fight was resumed. This can be confirmed by actually watching the fight, which is shown on ESPN Classic every so often, but here is a link: http://www.saddoboxing.com/3416-boxing-history-cassius-clay-vs-henry-cooper.html The wikipedia article on Henry Cooper himself says the same thing; in fact that article has it at 4-5 seconds.

Okay now the article seems POV slanted towards Ali, not that I care, I just don't like POV. Youknowthatoneguy 04:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] politics

The aspect that Ali became a political symbol for blacks is very little mentioned...Johncmullen1960 06:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rocky?

Didn't the fight with Ken Norton inspire Rocky? No. It was Chuck wepner who was the real life inspiration for Rocky. Both Ali and bNorton were well regarded fighters. The film Rocky was about the rise of a relative unknown who got a titlke shot.

[edit] The Champ's Family

Can we have the birth dates of Ali's his wives and children? As well as what are they up to now? Ali's relationships appear to be important and it would be nice to know more on his families. Thank you. Shikha17 11/11/06

[edit] concerning conversion to Islam

I was told that Cassius Clay originally converted to Nation of Islam in order to avoid the draft and although I don't believe that, I am unable to find a specific date of his conversion to prove otherwise. The article says he revealed that he was a member of Nation of Islam and that his name was Mohammed Ali in February of '64, but does anyone know for how long prior to this that he had held these beliefs? Gzeta 18:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greatest Heavyweight

Once again there is a movement to have inserted that "many regard Ali as the greatest heavyweight of all time." This is a violation of the weasel words rule in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words). If you are going to claim Ali as the greatest, then provide some proof. If not, this wording does not belong. MKil 15:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)MKil

I was looking at the Joe Louis article again, why does his article say this "Louis is regarded by many boxing historians, as well as commentators, to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time."? The same isn't true for Ali?: In Ali's biography "Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times" Al Bernstein, Mark Kram, Angelo Dundee and others rank Ali #1. I know for a fact that Max Kellerman ranks Ali the #1 Heavyweight all time but I don't have a citation, perhaps someone else can find one. Boxrec.com has him ranked as the #1 all time Heavyweight: http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?nationality=&sex=M&division=Heavyweight&status=E&SUBMIT=Go Ali was named the Heavyweight of the century ahead of Louis: http://espn.go.com/boxing/news/1999/1208/221194.html I would suggest that wikipedia state that many experts regard Ali to be the best Heavyweight of all time, or remove that statement about Louis from Louis' article.-unsigned 4:09 PM, December 4, 2006

"Avoid weasel words" is a guideline, not a policy as you keep stating in your comments. All guidelines can be overridden with community agreement. There is no factual dispute to the text in question. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 21:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is factual dispute. Only one person can be the "greatest," and while I understand you may want someone from Louisville to have that title, there is no consensus in the boxing world that Ali is the best. There is certainly a factual dispute about who is the best heavyweight. The Louis article at least takes time to cite the notion that Louis is the greatest. If something similar can be done here, then I'd be all for it. As it is, however, simply saying "many regard Ali as the greatest" is indeed a use of weasel words. MKil 21:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)MKil

Would you like me to add the citations that I just gave to the article? I don't think the article is claiming that Ali was the best, it's acknowledging that many say he was the best. The Joe Louis article does the same thing.-unsigned 4:34 PM, December 4, 2006

I added a section about Ali's ranking in heavyweight picture. I think your citations would add a lot to that section. MKil 21:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)MKil

Cool. I just think that if one article calls one the best, then the other article should say the same for the other, or neither should. Seems fair this way, maybe the Louis article can have a similar section?-unsigned 4:40 PM, December 4, 2006

The Louis article does have a footnote that references the IBRO ranking of Louis as the greatest, but perhaps a separate section could be created for him, too. Or once the Ali section is fleshed out, it could just be moved (with a few tweaks) to the Louis article. MKil 21:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)MKil

Your confusion regarding my position (i.e., I never said he was actually the greatest, nor do I want to especially promote this, but it is indeed a fact that many think he is) not withstanding, I think the new section addressing this is all right. Perhaps this could be referred to in the opener as well, but I won't push it. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 22:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
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