Talk:Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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[edit] Jinnah the "Great" Leader of "Indian" muslims..?

Jinnah represented the muslim population of Pre-partitioned British India who were willing to join the nation of pakistan.He isnt any "Great leader" for muslims who wished to stay back in India.Moreover presently he doesnt just represent the muslims but he represents the citizens of pakistan who could also be non-muslims. Hence changed the sentence to-- 'Jinnah the Great Leader of Pakistan'. Scourgeofgod 15:00, 28 June 2006 (IST)

87% of the Muslim electorate of India voted for Jinnah in the 1946 election. His main support came from areas that now form the Indian republic. He represented mainly a Muslim constituency in the central legislature of India for 30+ years from Bombay as well.

[edit] Jinnah a pork eater??

is it true that jinnah, while nominally a muslim, ate pork (which is strictly off limits to muslims)?

i found this info on the article offensive terms per nationality, in the section for pakistanis.

can someone please clarify? this is really interesting.

I dont know about him eating port but he belonged to a cult that is not considered as muslim organisation by sunnis or shias. for a person to form a country on the basis of religion it seems that people get offended by anyone bringing up this guys religion

His parents belonged to Ismaili sect but during his period in England, when he was in ‎London for his education to become a lawyer, he realized that Ismaili was not part of ‎main stream Islam, neither Sunni nor Shia. As a result, he quit Ismaili sect to become a ‎part of Sunni Islam which is considered a sect of main stream Islam. He strongly believed ‎in his identification as a Muslim and strived to do everything to be recognized as pure ‎Muslim. In his later life he was clearly more inclined to the religion, though, he was tried ‎to keep his religious privacy.‎ Szhaider 16:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Someone is continously changing the way Jinnah wrote his name.

Jinnah spelt his first name as "Mahomed". Live with it. It is there in every primary source. I don't even understand why this was diverted to "Muhammad" when Jinnah never wrote his name "Muhammad" but was Mahomed Ali Jinnah.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.38.49.122 (talk • contribs).

Apparently, this is how his name is spelt in most history books in English. In the three books I have on my desk at the moment (four but one constantly refers to him as Quadi-), they all spell his name as Muhammad Ali Jinnah or Mohammad Ali Jinnah. Pepsidrinka 17:34, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Please have a look at this image... it is a card/souvenir from Mahomed Ali Jinnah himself.

http://www.ya-hussain.com/int_col1/others/1942imgs/majin.htm

I'd agree that if we were to go by what he himself used, the article would be Mahomed. But the general policy is to use common names on Wikipedia, provided there's no real chance for confusion. From looking at the sources, it appears that muhammad is the more common name in the literature. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 14:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Related to such disagreement on names, the history of edits/development of this article is unfortunately incomplete, going back only to 14:41, 11 March 2006, when there was a name change, i.e. a version that had been developed under another title was copied in. Is it possible to see, somewhere, the prior history? Congratulations to all who worked on this featured article, recognized or not in the current history.... :) Don 16:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes and Contemporary views

Does anyone see any value in either of these two sections. I for one don't think quotes are encyclopedic on their own. And the contemporary views section could probably be eliminated while still remaining some of the content if it can fit in other sections. Pepsidrinka 17:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that they are unnecessary - I don't know of any FA biography having these sections. On top of this they are extremely POV and unverified. Rama's Arrow 20:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sir Sikandar Hayat

Sir Sikandar Hayat is stated as a "critic" of the Lahore Resolution. Infact it was Sikandar Hayat who officially moved the Lahore Resolution on 24th March 1940 at the League convention. Under an unofficial pact... Unionist Party was operating in Punjab under the League banner.

Do you have any reference for this? Unless you do, I will be forced to retain this explanation becoz Hyat Khan was the leader of the Unionist Muslim League, which had an explicit problem with the AIML on this question. Hyat Khan was Jinnah's competitor in the Punjab, and Jinnah did not get much standing there until Hyat Khan's death in 1942. Hyat Khan was also heading a coalition government with the Akalis, Congress in Punjab, and his son Khizr continued this. Rama's Arrow 19:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Also for your Lord Wavell comment - please add a ref, or else it will have to go. Rama's Arrow 19:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Wavell's comment is not an indicator of figures - its his POV (Wavell was in fact accused of being pro-League during all this). A simple denial statement from him cannot suffice. Rama's Arrow 19:53, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

1- About Sikandar Hayat- there was no Unionist Muslim League.. the article on "Unionist Muslim League" is some sort of a parallel universe -somewhere else with little or no basis in reality... yes there was a unionist party. Sikandar Hayat Khan was infact one of the authors of the Lahore Resolution and this can be confirmed from "Sole spokesman" by Ayesha Jalal, K B Sayeed's "Formative Phase" or "India: From Curzon to Nehru" etc... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahore_Resolution also documents this.

2- As for Lord Wavell... he was accused of being Pro-League later in 1947. It was after direct action day that wavell shifted to being pro-League... before that he hated Jinnah and the Muslim League intensely. In his diary he had referred to Jinnah in most derogatory terms.. till after DAD when he realised that the game was bigger... Wavell's comment was not POV. He was commenting that there was no evidence in front of the Government to suggest that League - and remember it was Suhrawardy they were blaming- was responsible.

A detailed discussion on DAD can be found on page 166 of H V Hodson's "Great Divide".

Funny....Wavell was replaced in 1947 with Mountbatten - while the Congress leaders were under arrest from 1942 to 1945, it was Wavell who was cooperating with Jinnah. And Wavell was working intensely to form an agreement on the Cabinet mission plans that would include the League in government. And why should one accept Wavell's statment as anything but POV? - Narendra Modi denies that VHP and BJP leaders were involved in the Gujarat riots, contrary to police reports, NHRC allegations, etc. I don't know what to say on Sikandar Hyat Khan - he was a critic of Jinnah and the main League so he formed his "Unionist" unit. Until his death, he was leading the Punjab's Muslims, and governing in an alliance with Congress and Akalis. Khan had also warned Jinnah as per Ayesha Jalal's book to keep out of the Punjab, and Jalal indicates that Jinnah wasn't popular in Punjab until Khan's death. Rama's Arrow 13:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear Rama's Arrow,

The Unionist Party was founded in the late 1920s by Sir Fazli-Hussain - who was formerly of the Muslim League. It was not the Unionist Muslim League since Unionist Party had many great Hindu landlords like Sir Chotu Ram etc. My great grandfather, Pir Rang Ali Shah, was a member of this party till 1939- till he switched over to the Muslim League. Sikandar Hayat and Jinnah agreed that on the all India level Muslim League would represent the Unionist Party and that Unionist Party would call its government in Punjab a League ministry. Sikandar Hayat and Jinnah had a difficult relationship... but it was Sikandar Hayat - who at Jinnah's orders- left Viceroy's war council. Unionist Party under Sikandar Hayat was a part of the grand coalition that called itself the Muslim League. I suggest you read Ayesha Jalal's book very carefuly. It was Lord Linlithgow who had put the Congress leaders in jail btw. Also if Lord Wavell's comment is POV (even though it is a statement of fact that there was NO evidence of Muslim League's involvement) ... then why should we treat Gandhi's grandson's evidence as anything more than a POV? H V Hodson's book page 166 shows that Jinnah's plan for direct action day was of civil disobedience movement of the kind Gandhi had launched in 1942... nothing more. All over India ... things did remain peaceful - except Calcutta... and in Calcutta all figures point to the fact that 3 times as many Muslims were killed... that shows that the violence that broke out was not planned as such - as many Indians like to claim- but was an unfortunate occurence where mobs on BOTH sides went crazy. If anything, Sumir Sarkar, an Indian historian, has quoted a letter in his book from Sardar Patel in which he gloats over three times the numbers of Muslims getting killed... and we know that Patel was not your usual machivellian but a man of some integrity. So what does that tell you?

Dear "Anon IP number.." (1) Gandhi's grandson did not issue his own opinion or statement, but cited facts from other sources. And he said the same thing I wrote in this article - that League activists were blamed by media and other political parties for causing the violence. When Wavell made his comment, Patel was arguing with increasing frustration on how British officials were impeding his ministry's efforts to stop the bloodshed. No official inquiry was launched for DAD riots. And it does not strike me as odd that Wavell could make such a statement to P-L, whose support was necessary in order to force the Congress to bring the League into the ministry, and not make a public statement.

[[[Answer]]] Gandhi's grandson expressed a point of view. On the other hand Lord Wavell merely said that there was NO evidence of it in reports sent to him by the British police.

(2) On the number of Muslim deaths being 3-times greater than Hindu deaths - I'd love to say it was all an unfortunate series of events, but if Jinnah had not issued a call to "Direct Action," or talked of how "Muslims are no believers in non-violence," we would have no unfortunate occurence. And I cannot understand how a man who criticized Gandhi's "civil disobedience" from 1918 to 1946, suddenly would use the same course, albeit his continued lack of faith in non-violence, to achieve his noble goals. And please do not go on to say that Gandhi's campaigns could have caused similar violence - Gandhi cancelled a national campaign in 1922 over the deaths of a number of people far fewer than the DAD riots claimed. And Gandhi was responsible for bringing peace to Noakhali.

===Answer=== Jinnah did not make the statement "Muslims are no believers in non-violence" - Sir Feroz Khan Noon did. Jinnah's statement of 14 August 1946 (2 days before direct action day) very clearly outlined the fact that Direct Action Day was to be peaceful day of civil disobedience which it was except in Calcutta. Jinnah dismissed Suhrawardy by the way for negligence. As for your claim about Jinnah not believing in non-violence- Jinnah's commitment to non-violence was constitutional.

(3) Patel's comment was that it was a "good lesson for the League" that Muslims suffered more casualties than Hindus, owing to the League's own ideas of how Hindus and Muslims could not co-exist. Patel hoped Jinnah would think twice about provoking communal passions again. And the only reason that so many people were killed was because British Raj governors refused to allow the provincial and central governments to sufficiently attack the unruly mobs and protect innocent civilians. There is plenty of evidence citing Nehru's and Patel's frustration with Wavell and other officials, given that as home minister it was all his primary responsibility to stop the mobs.

===Answer=== It is amazing how Nehru and Patel were not all frustrated when the first governor general of Independent India , Lord Mountbatten, refused to deploy the boundary force which he had promised ... and when V P Menon went to the UN and declared that "it was mere communal disturbance" when Pakistan's foreign minister Sir Zafrullah Khan called for an international investigation into communal holocaust in Punjab.

(4) Why do you think that the Congress had to concede the League's entry as a way to stop the violence, if the League was not the root cause of it? If it was all an unfortunate occurence where both sides went crazy, there would be no basis on which to think that the League's entry could solve problems. (5) Things were not peaceful in Punjab, where owing to strikes and uncontrollable violence, the Khizr Hyat Khan ministry was dismissed. (6) Given that Khizr Hyat Khan's ministry was a target of the violence, and that Sikander Hyat Khan had established coalitions with the Congress and Akalis at a time when Jinnah had called Congress-led governments "Hindu Raj," gives you the proof of Sikander Hyat Khan's political independence.

[edit] Answer

1-There was no uncontrollable violence unless you think thousands of Muslim women marching peacefuly is uncontrollable violence.

2- As for Sikandar Hayat... between 1939 (when Jinnah-sikandar pact was supposed to have come into existence and Sikandar Hayat became a Muslim Leaguer however nominal) till his death in 1942 Sikandar Hayat did not establish coalitions with Congress or the Akali.

3- I am afraid you've gotten your dates of League's entry confused. Congress did not concede anything. The talk of Muslim League being in the government was there before the DAD. Congress joined the government in August/September after DAD ... It was not until the December summit in London that Muslim League came into the interim government... by then the DAD situation had already abided. Congress agreed to the League's entry only because it was the second largest party in the country and also - as Gandhi conceded in an agreement with Jinnah- that League alone represented the Muslims. I can produce the agreement at some later time if you continue this discussion.

On a personal note, I am not going to continue this argument as we are ent ing into the "no man's land" on the India-Pakistan border. I appreciated the note of thanks you (I think) posted on my talkpage. Given that you are a consistent contributor to Jinnah and Pakistan-related topics, and that you have access to valuable information, I strongly advise you to obtain a registered account, so that we may have better opportunities to work together and learn from each other, even if we may hopelessly disagree on a lot of things. Cheers, Rama's Arrow 11:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

It is very sad... I think we should continue this argument for the sake of dialogue. Also I continue to be grateful for doing such an excellent job with this page...

For the sake of correctness, I'm removing the reference to him as a critic of the Pakistan demand, even though I personally believe its true. Rama's Arrow 13:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note to anon

It is very tempting to thwart all your replies with facts, but I must adhere to my pledge of restraint. I must also ask you to restrain yourself, becoz a revert war will definitely jeopardize this article's elevation to FA status and main page display. It is not POV to state what happened as a result of DAD - violence broke out across India. The sentence is very clear in stating that Jinnah called for strikes and protests, not attacks on Hindus. And again I strongly encourage you to obtain a registered account - I, and a lot of other people will feel more comfortable with you as a regular colleague. Rama's Arrow 14:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear Rama... I don't want to get into any war and I am very sorry to hear that this is the impression that has been brought about. The violence that broke out was in Bengal and later in Bihar - not all over India- as H V Hodson's narration of facts on page 166 (Great Divide) as well ... but I leave it to you to consider how you would want to incorporate different perceptions of the same fact. I am sure the sense of fairness you've displayed will compel you to change that sentence ... As for a registered account I do have one but I'll have to dig it out from my email - so give me some time.

Re-worded the sentence. Now its better. Rama's Arrow 14:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Answer: Thank you ... The word "degenerated" is fairer and I agree with its usage - the fundamental point of disagreement being the specific scope of DAD violence.

People feel more comfortable with registered users, who are taken more seriously. Since you've been with us for so long, what's the harm in making a simple account? You will also do a lot of good for Pakistan-related articles, which seem to be your basic interest. Join us, Rama's Arrow 14:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2nd note to anon

Hi - signing up for a new account will take 30 seconds! When I talked of revert war, it was becoz of my concern that edit wars here will delay this article's rise to FA status. Its not an observation about this debate or you. It will be easier for people to communicate if you get a registered account. Cheers, Rama's Arrow 04:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early life

Many sentences like about him dressing in European clothes does not belong in his early life section. Also the source about Jinnah consuming alcohol and pork needs a better quote than the one given. A columnist paper from a news source is not a correct source especially if this is to be featured. --a.n.o.n.y.m ^t 20:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I have replaced the reference about Jinnah's non-observance of Islam with another. Rediff.com, I maintain, is still a credible news site and source. Rama's Arrow 20:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

That source is also not a correct source because it's a personal essay or review and the reference actually points to a quote by a completely different author and even then it's still an allegation. Rediff.com could be a source for a news story like a building being burnt, but the references is to a columnist paper which means that a writer, not a scholar, submitted it. It would not be a correct source to use for something that is a historical fact. The problem here is with sources, so if you can find a history source which correctly states that he did then that source would be fine. --a.n.o.n.y.m ^t 20:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous editor has a point. The publication may be credible most of the time, but if you look further, they cite Ibn Warraq as the source. I'd be hard pressed to believe something by Ibn Warraq relating to Islam and/or Muslims that wasn't confirmed by another independent, nuetral source. Pepsidrinka 21:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that Ibn Warraq was a constant critic of Islam. I will search for a more credible source, but I don't believe there is a need to remove the note and Rediff citation as of now. Rama's Arrow 21:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language

Rama- According to M C Chagla, who wrote "Roses in December" which I read a long time ago, Jinnah, who could speak English better than many native English speakers, nonetheless was maserly in Gujurati and Cutchie.

Please research this issue. Again great work man. Thanks.

Hi - I have a citation from Rajmohan Gandhi's book that Jinnah had to "stammer" a speech in Gujarati during a 1918 Gujarat Political Conference in Gujarat, after Gandhi asked speakers to use their native language instead of English. The author also provides evidence from his own research books (also with a quote by Gandhi) that Jinnah almost only used English and grew distant from Gandhi after this experience. As to Kutchi, I strongly doubt it becoz its a rural, region-specific dialect which I doubt Jinnah would have ever known becoz his father was from Kathiawar and Jinnah never lived in Gujarat. Rama's Arrow 14:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

M C Chagla, a famous Indian lawyer and judge.. was Jinnah's junior in law and his apprentice. He broke with Jinnah when Jinnah made his own break with Indian Nationalist movement and became a separatist. I think M C Chagla's view ... as Jinnah's junior, supporter and finally opponent is more accurate than Ramohan Gandhi's... who after all wasn't even born then.

[edit] Muhammad Ali Jinnah

I do not desire to offer any comment about the contents of this article. My attention was drawn to this page, and I am just giving links to my responses:

As of now, I am not interested in this FA - I know that if certains editors continue to destroy the contents, the FA status may be lost, and that shall be a great loss to wikipedia, and wastage of time and resources of the wikipedians. Regards. --Bhadani 14:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

More coments - some may not like these information: Does anyone has any doubt that Jinnah went abroad several times before the partition of India with a passport issued by the-then Government of India, then under the control and management of the Great Britain, and he was a citizen of India before he became a citizen of Pakistan after Pakistan was formed? Any comments please. --Bhadani 16:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC) crossed as not relevant perhaps. BTW, someone vandalisizing this page, also vandalized my talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bhadani&diff=53017930&oldid=53008091

Jinnah remained a citizen of India even after the creation of Pakistan.

I again request users to please register, and edit to avoid confusion. Thanks. --Bhadani 09:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations!!

Congrats all contributors for this featured articles!!! :) --Pratheepps 04:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Congrats to everyone to make Muhammad Ali Jinnah a featured article. --Spasage 07:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

JINNAH

CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHETHER INFORMATION ABOUT JINNAH'S RESLIGIOUS AFFILIATION AS AN AGHA KHANI IS THAT SHOULD BE ON HIS SITE, FURTHERMORE THAT THE MUSLIM LEAGUE HE LED WAS FORMED BY AGHA KHAN, WHOSE FATHER WAS UNDER A DEATH SENTENCE BY THE KING OF PERSIA FOR HIS RELIGION CLAIMING TO BE GOD ON EARTH. INCIDENTLY THE SAME KING TOOK THE TITLE AWAY FROM AGHA KHAN WHICH HE HAD GIVEN TO HIM. fINALLY, AGHA KHAN HELPED THE BRITISH QUELL HTE REBELLION IN SIND PROVINCE BY MUSLIM THEREFORE GETTING THE TITLE PRINCE OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE. SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS INFORMATION IS RELEVANT.

TRUEBLOOD786trueblood 03:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The Agha Khan's history and role with the League is NOT relevant to a personal biography of Jinnah. Jinnah was a member of the Ismaili Khoja sect, and the events you speak of did not affect his life and thus do not merit inclusion in this succint biography. Thank you for discussing this. Rama's Arrow 04:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

'Seems to me that a persons religion who formed a country soley on the basis of religion is completely relevant, if on the otherhand he had made a secular country than his religion would not be relevant. Here Jinnah had made a statement that when one converts from Hinduism to Moslem he automatically becomes part of a different nation, thus his religion which is not mainstream islam should be relevant.'

TRUEBLOOD786

[edit] Contradiction

The article says:

"Jinnah was the eldest of five children born to Jinnahbhai Poonja (1857–1901), a prosperous Gujarati merchant who had emigrated to Sindh from Kathiawar, Gujarat.[3] Jinnahbhai Poonja and Mithibai had six other children—Ahmad Ali, Bunde Ali, Rahmat Ali, Maryam, Fatima and Shireen"

How can he have been the eldest of five when his parents had seven children?

Hrm. The citation at the end of the sentence which states that he is the eldest of five is merely a reference to his father/father's occupation and includes no information about being the eldest of five children. I'm not sure where that information comes from. It seems to me that such a glaring contradiction in two sentences right next to each other would have been picked up by someone in the peer review and nomination for featured status, but apparently not. -- 63.167.255.231 17:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor phrasing issue

Two sentences in the introduction begin with "Disillusioned by the failure...", with only a single sentence in-between them as a buffer. There is nothing technically wrong with this, but it is repetitive and indicates a lack of linguistic creativity in writing. One of them can probably be tweaked to use different verbiage. -- 63.167.255.231 12:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dina Wadia

Hi, The article states that Jinnah's daughter Ms. Dina refused to stay in Pakistan. Thats sounds as if she did so to make a political statement. Did she really refuse to stay in Pakistan because of some ideological or personal differences with her father or because her family, her husband et al were settled in bombay? There is a difference between the two. If the later then I would like the sentenced to be changed unless someone can show that Dina refused to live in Pakistan because of her certain personal/political beleifs. Omerlives

[edit] continued

I had the same thought when I read the article and changed it to say that Dina STAYED in present-day India because her family was there. The article makes it seem like the way the person above says so. This is just one of many slight slandering remarks against Jinnah throughout this article.

[edit] Bengali view of Jinnah

Hi everyone,

I've included a Bengali view of Jinnah paragraph. Very important as Bangladesh was a part of Pakistan upto 1971 and it was Jinnah's decisions in creating a country where one ethnic group (Punjabis) who ruled over everyone else which ended the Pakistan concept in 1971. Please do not start an edit wars over this.

Habz —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Habz (talk • contribs).

Ive removed your comments as they were highly insulting, Jinnah was the founding father of Pakistan not Bangladesh, He was a statesman that achieved Pakistan through completely democratic, peaceful means, he was never imprisioned unlike Gandhi or Sheik Mujeeb.

"Very important as Bangladesh was a part of Pakistan upto 1971"

East Pakistan was part of pakistan federation until 1971 not Bangladesh.

"it was Jinnah's decisions in creating a country where one ethnic group (Punjabis) who ruled over everyone else which ended the Pakistan concept in 1971"

It was S Mujeebs decision to create a country where one ethnic group (Banglas) who ruled over everyone one else (ie Biharis).

Read the rules of wiki86.131.108.49 05:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)Ad

"peaceful means"... lol, are you kidding me? Tuncrypt 14:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gujarati

As a Pakistani citizen he had no link to Gujarat whatsoever and neither he officially accepted Gujarati as his language. He endorsed Urdu that is why Gujarati is irrelevent. Some historians claim that his family was basically from Sahiwal which is now in Pakistan. Szhaider 07:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

neither he officially accepted Gujarati as his language..

Can you back this with a reference, please? --Ragib 07:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I guess I agree now that it shouldn't be there. It was just his mother tongue, he never lived in Gujarat, identified too strongly as a Gujarati, and probably never wrote anything in the Gujarati language (unlike Gandhi for example), or (most importantly) in the Gujarati script. Tuncrypt 15:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC) /But btw, why do you bold the Urdu? It looks so lame, lol

I don't think there is an obligation (to begin with) to provide transliteration in national and mother languages in biographies. What is really being pushed around here is India/Pakistan attitude differences - some Pakistani editors don't want Jinnah to be associated too closely to Indian influences, while some Indian editors want to attach him to Indian culture. Both want to prove a point that's entirely irrelevant to Wikipedia. Rama's arrow 15:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I take the attitude that transliteration in any language is basically more information. We should choose to be selective only because (a) we don't want the first line to be crowded with scores of transliterations and (b) the links in other language Wikipedias are already present. Rama's arrow 15:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Even though he might have been the founder of Pakistan, Jinnah did not know Urdu [1]. I do not wish to remove the Urdu script, but I feel that the Gujarati script is appropriate as Gujarati was his mother tongue [2]. I agree with the fact that we should be selective, but when certain things are beneficial, it is alright to keep them. For this reason, I have restored the Gujarati script. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 04:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not disputing anything, but to say Jinnah didn't know Urdu is quite unbelievable and likely to be absurd. A reference from a credible and reliable source would have been a lot better to support this The reference you added is from a Hindutva site (as I see in the site's banners). Dependable historic information is something NOT coming from any ideology-based site, but rather referenced academic/historic work. Jinnah's article suggests that his mother tongue was Gujrati, so no problem in keeping that here. --Ragib 04:56, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Gujarati is not relevent as Jinnah never used it in his political life and considered Karachi his city (predominantly Urdu speaking city, many Sindhi Pakistanis rever him as Sindhi). There is no historical proof whatsoever of Jinnah's personal inclination towards Gujarat. He liked to be identified as Muslim more than anything. Szhaider 10:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Ragib: Sorry if the reference was from a Hindutva site. I did not know that. A more reputable source is the Encarta encyclopedia: Mohammed Ali Jinnah Quick Facts. Mr. Szhaider, even though many Sindhi Pakistanis may revere Jinnah as Sindhi, it is best to be neutral here. Jinnah was born an Indian Muslim, with his mother tongue being Gujarati. Whether or not he used it in his political career is irrelevant. Urdu should stay in the article because it is the national language of Pakistan (with Jinnah being the father of the country) and Gujarati should stay on the article because it is Jinnah's native tongue. Before you revert my changes, I would like all three of us to come to a consensus here. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 02:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me put this straight for you. He was born in Karachi. He had no connection to Gujarat whatsoever. He could speak Gujarati but did not speak it. He always spoke English. He chose Urdu as preferable language for Pakistan and made some speeches in Urdu to stress his point. He never identified himself as Gujarati. Why do you stress for Gujaratai script? Only his parents migrated from Gujarat where they originally came from Sahiwal (a city which is now in Pakistan). Moreover, Gujarati script has no relevance here as his importance to have an article about him is because he created Pakistan and there is no recognition for Gujarati in this country. Szhaider 05:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Content Selection

I realize this may not be totally relevent but I need some help in selecting what information to use for a research paper. The topic is: 'Quaid-e-Azam - An Architect of Pakistan'. Can anyone please guide me as to what sort of content I should use in the paper? I'll be very grateful!! Beeny 16:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)Beeny

Well sir this is a biography of Jinnah, which summarizes his personal life and political career and offering a brief analysis of his legacy. You are free to use any information given here, but please do not plagiarize. As for your research paper, only you or a colleague can decipher which information will be useful. Rama's arrow 16:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

For "Architect of Pakistan," I assume the sections "Leader of the Muslim League" and "Founding Pakistan" will be helpful. Cheers, Rama's arrow 16:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of "Quaid-e-Azam"

The insertion of "u" after "q" is a convention of English orthography. The traditional spelling is "Qaid". Sarayuparin 21:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

See Official Website about Quaid-e-Azam Szhaider 00:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

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