Talk:Mudaliar
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[edit] TMS and FC status
TMS became FC mainly because of their high status during the 19th and 20th centuries and before independence which they gained during British rule. How they obtained the wealth and the relationship of TMS with the Mudaliar title and the connection with Pallava kings are the issues under discussion here. This is similar to Mukkulathor claiming that they are the descendants of the 3 kings of TN Chera, Chola and Pandya. If Mukkalathor are BC and kings, how come TMS are FC but servants of kings?
1. The Hindu article http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/09/03/stories/2004090300780600.htm alone proves that TMSV did not obtain the Mudaliar title during the British reign in South India rather it proves we atleast obtained way before that. We obtained the wealth by organizing agricultural raids. If we were already Mudaliars during the Chola rule, then we wouldn't have been poor or middle class or upper middle class at that time. The various kingdoms after the Cholas like Nayaks etc., were also our patrons. So to say we obtained most of our wealth during the British rule is false. Don't make random statements.
2. As to the origin of South Indian kings, its a grey area , moreover, its at the discretion of the direct descendants(not just the crown prince but his half brothers etc.) to clear this. If indeed they are then why would the royal family keep mum, c'mon they're full blooded already, so it should not be such a big deal saying what your origin is, rather its a plus for your community ?
3. If at all what you say is true (kings were Mukkulathor, I seriously doubt it, go see the royal lineage split in Chola-Chalukya) then why did the Agamudiyar(Mukkaluthor) leave the title Devar, Padayatchi etc., and are using Mudaliyar ? Why go thru' all this trouble ? If you read Tamil history then you'd notice that Agamudiyar moved from down south to the Thondaimandalam area before they started using Mudaliar title and even renamed to Thuluva Vellala (as Mudaliar is a title given to SV only). This is because at one point the Mudaliars as in TMSV were only in Northern Tamil Nadu, so no one would believe you if you said you were a Mudaliar and if you lived outside of Thondaimandalam. But in the end the Govt. was too sharp to label them as a separate community and still clubs them with Agamudaiyar.
4. For the sake of argument if the Kings belonged to community X, then, it does not make any sense to promote X to FC when the majority of the ppl belonging to X are still socially struggling. Caste in Indian society was assigned by profession. So to say all ppl(no blood relation with the King) in X are aristocrats does not make any sense. Again don't you think that if the Kings were really from X then they would have favored ppl from their own community X over others in order to lift the ppl from community X ? This gives food for thought as to why the SV community was given so much importance over the centuries eg: its no secret SV Pillaimars rivalled the Brahmins as the Kings' high functionaries ? Why wasn't the Pillaimar title given to the Mukkulathor community ?It is beyond the scope of the article to cite our literary achievements in the various kingdoms. Some research would reveal the who's who of SV community in the past Tamil kingdoms.
[edit] One direct evidence is enough
ONLY ONE historical evidence is sufficient to prove that TMS were the original people who were given Mudaliar title or even the original Mudaliar caste. This could be a stone inscription or literary article. Unfortunately all we have are the name Vellala. It could be Thuluva Vellala or Isai Vellala or any other died out Vellala group. Edgar Thurston wrote his book in 1905. So that cannot be considered historic. However I do accept that at that time i.e. 1900's TMS group were socially high. Any time before that need more evidence.
1. For the umpteenth time The Thuluva Vellala are not Vellala, they are Thevars. That is why they've been clubbed with Agamudiyars in the BC caste list. Isai Vellala and most of the the other Vellala castes did not exist before this, they've just recently added "Vellala" to the caste name for social mobility. That is why they've still been classified as BC/MBC etc.
2. Edgar Thurston is a reknown historian recognized the world over, and he makes abundant citations (which are all Tamil and Indian historical articles in his book) before making a claim.
3. So are you saying that if someone wrote a book about the Pallavas today but cited authentic historical references then you would still refuse to accept the book as authentic just because it was written in this modern era ? If yes, then there is a fundamental flaw in your logic.
[edit] Clarification on Devadasi
The webpages connecting Devadasi with Kaikola are from Christian Missionary websites and are factually incorrect. Further Devadasi are a distinct group who are now called "Isai Vellalar". There is a wikipedia article already on this. Enough said. The scientific article you mentioned seems to be genuine. However there is one problem. It seems to indicate that its source is the same old infamous E. Thurston author of Castes and Tribes Of Southern India, which you are referring to already. So no new source there.
The fact that these are from Chrisitan Missionary websites is even better. They have no gain in saying this just about the Sengunthar/ Kaikola caste. Moreover, its a serious claim by a group regarding the status of a community. So they would always be able to provide more sources if someone were to contact them. As for the journal research article, it speaks for itself, its a research article and Thurston's book is one of the most famous books on Indian history. Moreover the statement is not what they're called once they go into sacred prostitution (as in Devadasi etc.) but rather from which community they came from historically. These articles and then some, would prove that beyond doubt regarding those communities if we were to go into arbitration.
[edit] TMS and Hindu article
The Hindu article is quite interesting. However there is one problem. It seems to state that the source of that information is the priest of the temple whom the article writer was interviewing. "According to the priest,...". Any more info from other sources is appreciated. Since clearly it stated that Karikala cholan established VM which you claim are TMS group, I am sure you will be able to find the original source of that assertion. Also what happened to the Pallava king connection? Suddenly it is Pallava kings by inference and no longer solid evidence. Is there not a single stone inscription by Pallava or Chola king having the word Vellala and Mudaliar in them together? How unfortunate??!! It is so surprising since TMS is the feudal lord and directly below the King himself. Does not your logic say that you must be seeing inscriptions by the hundreds if not thousands about Vellala Mudaliars??!! To separate facts and fiction we need solid evidence. It is well known that Vellalas were quite high in TN society before British times. But where is the evidence of the royal connection and feudal lordship? It seems only during the 19th and 20th century Vellala Mudaliars became powerful as far as we go from E Thurston which is the only legitimate source given.
Not quite, review the article again. The priest gives the name of the deity but the author reasons that what the priest says should be true by connecting it to King Karikala Chola's time. Hence its the author who is asserting this fact that Karikala Chola divided Tondai Nadu and settled the Vellala Mudaliars. But these were not all the Thondaimandalam Mudaliars, only those who belonged to the Thondaimandalam region annexed by the Chola king.
No, the Chola King did not create the TMS group. We existed even before the Pallavas, but we were given the title Mudaliar only during the Pallava reign. This article was just for your reference so that people don't think I'm making some random claim. This also proves that we did not just get the title during the British period or in the last few centuries. I will post a concrete evidence soon. Not all evidences are available in the electronic form on the net. Thats what libraries are for.
[edit] Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala Mudaliars
The Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala did not become forward caste overnight or all of a sudden nor is the Tamil Nadu Government and Government of India so naive, so as to declare them forward caste without a reason. It is true that many castes use the name Vellalar but how come the TamilNadu Government and Indian Government recognise us as FC while they label the others as BC/MBC etc. ? Any logical person would have asked this question at some point if you've been following this discussion. Here are a few reasons.:
1. During the Bhakti movement in Tamil History, a lot of people contributed to the Saiva Siddhanta philsopshy. Of all these people the most prominent were 12 Alwars and 63 Nayanmars who contributed a lot. The 12 Alwars were Vaishnavites (followers) of Vishnu while the 63 Nayanmars were Saivites who were devotees of Shiva.The Nayanmars were not all Brahmins. Of the 63, some of the Nayanmars were from the vellala caste. Every major Shiva temple has statues for the Alwars and Nayanmars.
2. This vellalar caste from which these Nayanmars came from is Saiva Vellala. The Governments declared us the Saiva Vellala, in order to differentiate us from the other castes which use the Vellalar title. The word Saiva in the caste name is not just an indication of our food habits. The Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala is a subsect of the Saiva Vellala just as Tirunelveli Saiva Vellala, etc. is. The word "Thondaimandalam" in the caste name signifies our origin in south India and is named after the area ruled by the Pallavan King, Thondaiman. We existed even before the Bhakti movement during the Chola period.
Here is a reference http://www.dlshq.org/download/nayanar.htm that gives a brief description of the Nayanmars. It would only say Vellala and not Saiva Vellala as the need for adding Saiva did not arise until later after some other castes started adding Vellalar to the name. We have already proved our lineage to the Governments and its not such a grey area.
4. Here is another link, which is from the The Hindu newspaper website that talks about how the King Karikala Chola divided Tondai nadu and placed the Vellala Mudaliars.
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/09/03/stories/2004090300780600.htm
If the Chola King, placed Vellala Mudaliars in Tondai Nadu then any logical person can deduce that they must have existed before that period. Who were preceding Kingdoms to the Cholas ? The Pallavas. If you read about Pallava Kingdoms and Chola Kingdoms then you would notice that some regions of the Pallava Kingdom were later annexed by the Cholas. Adequate evidence can be found at Connemara Public Libraries which was a part of the Museum and the Tanjore Library associated with the Brihadeeswara Temple regarding the ancestry of the Thondaimandala Mudaliars. Its no big secret.
Any reference to Vellala Mudaliars is a reference to ThondaiMandala Vellala Mudaliars, the Thuluva Vellala are not Vellala, they are Thevars and are from the Mukkulathor community who started using the Mudaliar name in recent times. This has nothing to do with the feudal title Mudaliar. This is analogous to someone adding Count or Duke to their names and claiming to be of aristocratic lineage.
This is reason for the origin of the Tamil saying, "kallar, maravar, agamudaiyar mella mella vanthu vellalar ahi, mudaliar sonnar".
It does not make even more sense when Sengunthars use it and it is pathetic. The Sengunthars are weavers. Why were they given the feudal title reserved for agricultural landlords ?
You seem to know so much about the average Thondai mandal Saiva Vellala. Where is the source for this ? Maybe you should check your own roots before questioning mine.
The following section is for your benefit and it talks about who the Sengunthars are. Of course with adequate legitimate references.
[edit] Other facts
Any facts or fiction about when TMS started adding TM and S before their V names??
Still No info on the caste name in community certificate?! Seriously is it some big secret?
Caste name is Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala and we are one of the elite groups in the bigger SV community. But remember that the SV community is not that big when compared to other groups in North and South India. We (TMSV) do not perform priestly duties and don't wear threads. I'm not going to generalize regarding marriage with others of the SV community, however the SV Pillaimar(as in Tirunelveli) are considered very close. But in this modern era, its at the discretion of the indvidual families.
[edit] Sengunthars
The Sengunthars are labelled as Backward class by the Tamil Nadu and Andhra Governments for a valid reason. You can keep your theories about how intelligently they moved from FC to BC to yourself.
Here are references to the legitimate Government of Tamil Nadu, India and Andhra Government, India, websites which give a list of BC/MBC/OBC classes.
http://www.tn.gov.in/bcmbcmw/bclist.htm
http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/ap.html
Its is common knowledge in South India as to who the Sengunthar/ Kaikolar are and its not my problem if you've been living in a very close knit community or unaware of this.
"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411
To view the complete article just register, its free.
Here are the links :
http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/link.asp?id=jv31l27518262711 If you cannot access it then just go to the following page and follow one of the links
[edit] Clarification on Devadasi
The webpages connecting Devadasi with Kaikola are from Christian Missionary websites and are factually incorrect. Further Devadasi are a distinct group who are now called "Isai Vellalar". There is a wikipedia article already on this. Enough said. The scientific article you mentioned seems to be genuine. However there is one problem. It seems to indicate that its source is the same old infamous E. Thurston author of Castes and Tribes Of Southern India, which you are referring to already. So no new source there.
The fact that these are from Chrisitan Missionary websites is even better. They have no gain in saying this just about the Sengunthar/ Kaikola caste. Moreover, its a serious claim by a group regarding the status of a community. So they would always be able to provide more sources if someone were to contact them. As for the journal research article, it speaks for itself, its a research article and Thurston's book is one of the most famous books on Indian history. Moreover the statement is not what they're called once they go into sacred prostitution (as in Devadasi etc.) but rather from which community they came from historically. These articles and then some, would prove that beyond doubt regarding those communities if we were to go into arbitration.
[edit] Inter Caste Marriage and caste reservation
A caste is superior only because of its average wealth and education. If all brahmins were uneducated or poor, brahmins cannot claim superiority. However due to their excellent rapport with the British, it is to be noted that before independence Brahmins held on to 70% of the official posts even though their population was only 5% (approx).
A Gounder can marry a Pillai or a Brahmin or a Vellala Mudaliar. Unfortunately this is not recommended due to differing life styles and cultures. Of course in the modern world any doctor can marry another doctor. Any IT engineer can marry another IT engineer since their lifestyles are similar.
All this discussion would not be needed, if in India lifestyles or occupation or education was not determined by caste or family. Unfortunately we cannot change history and hence we need reservation.
Even if a rich Dalit marries a poor Thondai Mandala saiva Vellala Mudaliar, the dalit will be considered a loser as the dalit has not respected traditions. This is the same as a Hindu marrying a muslim. One of their cultures will not be passed on their children. Hence whose culture was not passed on, is the loser.
Seems like you're the biggest loser of them all. What kind of traditions are you trying to protect ? Moreover traditions have nothing to do with the amount of money a person has. The above statement proves that you have a terrible complex and are doing the same mistakes as people did in the past. What's wrong if you marry a Dalit ? The reasons you're giving are so lame. Stop generalising and keep your traditons within your caste, Sengunthar that is. Your opinion stinks big time.
Obviously your IQ and logic is very low. But I'll clarify again for knowledge sake, each tradition is as good as another. So Im happy about my traditions. Are you happy about yours? Obviously not. I suppose you did an intercaste marriage or planning to do one just to get some reservation benefits. I appreciate it very much and wish you good luck. In fact if all Indians did this, then there would not be any caste problem.
[edit] British Imperialism & Arabic Domination
Because British promoted people who have supported their rule, like Ettappa certain segments of the people became rich and powerful. Then they became Mudaliars and this can be seen clearly in the case of Sri Lankan society. See the article in Wikipedia about the Mudaliars in Sri Lanka and how they were created by the British to promote their rule.
The same division among the Indians was misused by the British and Arabs to conquer India. Still our old prejudices are not gone and we keep repeating the same mistakes as our ancestors.
We must all realize that we are all equal instead of claiming superiority and inferority.
FYI: The FC castes existed even before the British came into India. Specifically they are not labelled FC because they helped the British. Your IQ seems to be in single digit. It was based upon your profession. A Dalit/ untouchable was termed as such because of the work he did. Caste system was not invented by the British. It was present in the Indian society even before the British arrived here. Now that you're caste has been labelled Backward class, blame the British. Stop cribbing and look around. The British are long gone, why does the TN Govt still classify certain castes as BC/ MBC. Its because the caste system existed for tens of centuries well before the British set foot on Indian soil.
First of all Wikipedia is not a good citation as things change by the minute. Now that you've brought it up, look at the "Mudaliars in Sri Lanka" under the Trivia section in this very article. See how it talks about a homogenous group of Mudaliars that existed before the British, thats what I'm talking about. FYI: I did not add this Trivia section here. I'm just saying that the Thondaimandala Saiva Vellalars are this original homogeneous group. Maybe its you who got the Mudaliar title by bending over to the British. No wonder the TN Govt refuses to recognize you as FC inspite of your high status and economic power.
Definitely Vellalas were more pwerful than other groups during the time before British rule. After that Brahmins and other groups came into prominence. How they achieved this? God only knows. It is very true that TMS is the only community that is FC and using title Mudaliar as far as I know. If there are others please add them also, Id like to know more about it. I dont feel sorry certain castes are labelled BC. FYI castes like Sengunthar, KVG etc successfully moved from FC to BC after independence. Infact Vanniars moved from FC to MBC and that is due to their intelligence in politics. In fact, I feel sorry for the TMS for being labelled FC since they are not clearly highly educated or rich in status as Brahmins.
[edit] Historical evidence needed for assertions
For all assertions we need historical evidence in the form of inscriptions or literary evidence. This would be very helpful for those who are interested in knowing the exact truth and those who are interested in gaining knowledge about the history of Tamilnadu.
This will be very useful esp. about the claim
"This was only given to some prominent Vellalars of the Pallava kingdom". When did Pallava kings start giving mudaliar title? Please indicate your source as it would be very beneficial to learn not only about Mudaliar but also about other castes.
Why don't we start with why the Sengunthars are Backward class. If they are Mudaliars and are well off and have a high status in the society (your very own words), why does the Governement of TamilNadu, Government of Andhra label them as Backward class ? Why did you delete these references in the first place ? Why doesn't the TN Govt declare people from all castes calling themsleves as Mudaliars as FC, as according to you Mudaliars are supposed to have a high status and are economically powerful in the society, atleast the Sengunthar Mudaliars are, as per you ? So if Sengunthars Mudaliars are really powerful then why are they still BC ? This is the sole reason the TN Govt refuses to recognize random ppl jumping around calling themselves as Mudaliar such as yourself as FC, inspite of all the high status. You refuse to accept the the internet references as you say they've been created by a particular caste. Then please read the book, Castes & Tribes of South India - ET.Thurston, VII 361. Do you need directions to a library too? For more sources go to the Connemara Public Library in Madras and search for the historical archives about the Pallava kingdoms. You can also find the sources about the origin of various titles and castes.
You are only repeating what others have given as evidence in your caste specific websites. Cant you get any evidence from stone inscriptions or literary evidence given by Indian authors. If you have access to the book, can you type some text from the book and put it in this website? It'll be a great source of knowledge. Can you also give more such specific references esp. from the time before British rule, such as tamil literature and stone inscriptions. I can accept these sources as factual if it is on a legitimate website not a website created by a particular caste. I am objective and not prone to emotional outbursts. If anybody has easy access to libraries in Madras, please visit them and share any knowledge obtained. I have given evidence for the fact that Sengunthars got prize from the King itself for service to Chola army and hence my claim that Sengunthars are Kshatriyas. Go to hindu newspaper website. Search for Kaikola and chola and you will find the evidence. Cant you give any such evidence for all your claims. Maybe you dont have any evidence and that is why you are repeating like a parrot. Savvy?
[edit] Inferiority Complex affecting some FC
Some FC people have a big inferiority complex because even though the Government classifies them as FC and they are born in a so called illustrious caste, they themselves individually do not have the forward caste characteristics they are supposed to have and hence feel inferior in their mind. What can one do except consult a samiar? But they should realize all the classes are equal and have equal respect be they Vellala or Dalit or Brahmin. They should also leave their old prejudices and come and live in the 21st century. Avoid repeating that we are first class or first layer, etc. Dont call other Vellalas as second layer. Of Course some Mudaliar are forward caste and recognized by the TN goverment as such.
The FC's don't have a complex. The fact that the Sengunthars who are Backward class and have assumed the title Mudaliar for the sake of social upliftment proves that you're the one with the complex. Get a life. You are the one who blew your horn and said that the Sengunthars belong to the Kshatriya community. If Sengunthars really belong to the Kshatriya community, then why are they BC ? Aren't they supposed to be FC according to the defintion of a Kshatriya (don't give your lame version of Kshatriya)? Next when you were proven wrong fair and square you said they were "Soldiers". After a few days, you changed the word "Soldiers in the Chola Army" to "Warriors in the Chola Army". Now these things prove that you're the one with the complex. Again the argument is not if one Mudaliar is superior to another or if people from FC are superior to people from BC/MBC or vice versa, but rather if you're a Mudaliar at all. Stop diverting the argument.
I see your problem. You think that only people of TMS caste can use Mudaliar title. That unfortunately is not within your control. However can you clarify what is the name of TMS community as per the Community certificate given by TN government? I just want to know more about TMS from historical sources. If you want to know more about Sengunthars search for it on the hindu website where it gives evidences of Sengunthar since the time of Chola empire as gaining prizes from the king himself for services in the army. As far as I know that is sufficient proof that Sengunthars belong to Kshatriyas. At that time Sengunthars were definitely not using Mudaliar in their caste name and even now Sengunthars dont use it. They use it only as a title. That is the earliest hard critical evidence available as far as I know. You can look at the evidence and come to whatever conclusion you infer, Im not bothered. Give me your definition of kshatriya. What are TMS, Sudras according to your definition? Why are you concerned if somebody is using solid evidence to prove that they belong to warrior class (Kshatriyas)? It has been mentioned repeatedly that Mudaliar is not a caste name. If you cant accept that, then you are like the guy who told Rama is stepfather of Sita. Now seeing all the hullabaloo you are raising, .... Stop trying to put the castes using Mudaliar title into a hierarchy and claim your nonsense without evidence.
[edit] Misc
Mudalair is not a caste but a title of various people. RaveenS 22:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Talk page, not article
Please do not use the article space for your conversations. That belongs on the talk page. Thanks, Valley2city 05:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reg. Mudaliar
Disclaimer: I'm not picking or trying to demean anybody.
1. Some ppl have to stop speculating and start getting your history straight about Mudaliars. I'm sure you have access to some good libraries if you cannot find info on the net.
2. I don't have a problem w/ other castes using the title in recent years. But other castes have to stop trying to take credit for the origin of the Mudaliar title. It doesn't make sense. Mudaliar is a feudal title, a title of rank, given to a person who organized agricultural raids in the Pallava kingdom. Only prominent Vellalars or agricultural landlords organised these raids.
a)This was only given to some prominent Vellalars of the Pallava kingdom which is why the TN Govt refuses to see the other castes (BC/ MBC) using the title in the same light as Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala who are FC in order differentiate the original population. If its as simple as adding a title at the end of your name then TN Govt(note that some BC/MBC castes are also listed in Andhra and other Indian Govt as BC/MBC) and other Indian Govts would be grossly misrepresenting a whole community by labelling them BC or MBC.
3. I don't have a problem about anybody belonging to BC/ MBC. If you've got a complex then why don't you try and get your caste removed from BC/MBC and move them to FC.
4. A few people over here have been unable to digest being labelled as BC/MBC. I can understand this, nobody likes to be told they are from an inferior caste. At the same time they act as though they don't believe in the caste system at all.
a) If you truly didn't believe in the caste system then why do you keep repeating over and over that "we don't marry outside our caste". To be more specific, why do the Sengunthars don't marry a Dalit etc. The truth is, the society will look down upon you. I'm not necessarily saying this is correct but you have to stop acting as though you don't believe in the system at all. If you really didn't care then you would not be here trying to prove a point.
b) The ppl from BC/ MBC don't seem to have a problem calling themselves BC/ MBC while getting into an educational institution. Most of the BC/ MBC who use the Mudaliar title are definitely well off. Don't you then think its an unfair advantage over the FC candidates(of course, there are also truly brilliant ppl from BC/MBC)? I 've personally seen about hundreds of BC/MBC candidates bypass FC candidates due to this inspite of having a lower rank. Don't you think it makes more sense to set reservations based upon financial status ? The truth is the ppl from BC/ MBC don't want to be labelled as such but at the same time want to enjoy the privileges.
c) The FC's aren't creating caste problems nowadays. Its the people from BC who keep fighting with the Dalits, take Tirunelveli for example. The truth is every group needs to step over someone else to feel good. First we fight within ourselves, then fight with the Gounders, Pillais etc. Then the non-brahmins fight with the brahmins. On an Indian level the north Indians look down upon the south Indians. On a world level it doesn't matter if you're a Kashmiri/ Punjabi and fair, some white ppl would still consider you inferior to them if you're not a white.
Maybe if all the BC/ MBC start becoming FC then these problems would slowly cease to exist.
Critics welcome.
Mudaliar 16:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
