Talk:Motorcycle club

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Motorcycle club article.

Multi-piece clubs? Only outlaws wear more than one patch? Equating HOG with outlaw bikers?? This page is, from start to finish, nothing but ignorance and bias. How about a reference that HOG was the biggest contributor to the MDA last year, and hopes to hold and exceed that record? This should be deleted, or at least overhauled to actually DESCRIBE motorcycle clubs, not pass out anti-HD, anti-biker propaganda. Tom S.

Why not start an article on HOG, then? I don't think that this article is too POV. It describes both recreational and outlaw clubs. If the descriptions are inaccurate, then please correct them (with references, if possible), but please don't just delete the material you disagree with. Pburka 02:04, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I dont know how to start an article. So no problem with that. As for deleting what I disagreed with... the WHOLE bit about patches and multi-piece patches referenceing one-piece=HOG member multi-piece=outlaw is just plain wrong. I did not simply delete it. I replaced it with the truth, including referencing the various patches and styles that bikers tend to incorporate into their wear.
As for sources... I AM a biker, a HOG member and all that. But if you need references, look in any publication that has pictures of bikers, or go to Sturgis or something. We are all of us decked out in many patches because we LOVE patches and pins. Secondly, where are the references and sources for THIS? The fact is that this section IS NOT NPOV. It is not POV either. It is simply not factual. Tom S.
If the info about patches is not factual, then it should be removed. My biggest concern was that you removed the link to motorcycle gangs. Although many MCs aren't gangs, many other ones are. The most well known MC is probably the Hells Angels, which self-identifies as an outlaw motorcycle club.
I just think its not NPOV to identify the two as one and the same, which this article implies. Perhaps the link should be rephrased to denote that MCs that engage in criminal activity are called motorcycle gangs? Then one can follow the link and learn that the gangs still prefer to be called MCs? Tom S.
Starting a new article is quite simple, and I think an article about HOG would be valuable, since it seems to be a notable organization. Just create a link to Harley Owners Group (or type it into the search box), click on it, and fill in the text box. Pburka 16:40, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Trying

Working on removing the POV, directing the outlaw info into the motorcycle gang. The patch information is next, what is commonly worn in a club compared to gang etc et al. Mceder 09:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US Centric

Its very US centric

  • needs to have an explanation of MC and MCC (road clubs and off road clubs)
  • AMA bit needs to change to national governing body of something, more explanation of the governing body concept.
  • needs to talk more about sport promotion - a large amount of clubs promote/run/put on events along side social activities like rides, meetings in pubs, etc

Job for the future (when i get time)Pickle 21:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I've taken a stab at a complete rewrite to differentiate Motorcycle Club from riding clubs like H.O.G. and its kin. Thoughts or opinions? Mmoyer 04:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts but my comments above still stand. This is in effect an article about the Hells Angles and other such motorcycle clubs. it makes no efforts to talk about non cruiser based bike clubs (ie its US centric to a very specific type of bike club - World POV). The are a plethora of other types of motorcycles with their own owners clubs, who go on rides, etc and conduct actives that aren't, how shall i say, as "notorious" as the Hells Angels. In-fact over this side of the pond, there isn't anything like them really. Over hear superbikes dominate the biking world, along with tourers and scooters (there is no coverage of the Mods vs rocker era). To me as an off road motorcyclist this article bear no to scant resemblance of my experience of motorcycles clubs, there are thousands across Europe organising motorcycle competitions of various types. Pickle 17:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Fundamentally, I agree with you. This article is about the specific cultural phenomenon known as the "American-style" motorcycle club. I believe that this topic merits its own article, and I also believe that there should be another article titled "Motorcycle riding club" to describe the kind of clubs to which you refer. Perhaps you should write that article? I hope this clarifies things. Thoughts? Mmoyer 00:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Possibly thats the solution, although IMHO this article might needs to make a clear distinction between the two concepts probably on the same page, as the concept I'm referring to i would NOT characterise as "motorcycle riding club" as it doesn't IMHO reflect the fact the a "Motorcycle club" can be both what I'm talking about and what you are talking about....... A concept to ponder for the future and maybe when i get some illusive time tackle. Pickle 09:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Please suggest some text for explaining the difference and I will try to help. Note, too, that these "American-style" motorcycle clubs also exist in Europe and Australia. Mmoyer 14:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
One one hand we have the Motorcycle club formed by competitors to enable them to ride their bikes in competitions through sports governing body (Eg FIM for world, AMA in the US, ACU in the UK, etc) in a variety of sports (see Motorcycle racing). On the other hand there is the type of club that is being described primarily on this page - ie road bikers, on cruisers (ie Harley's) tending to not entirely legal activities, etc (this is thus vastly different from the "sporting" motorcycle club - however these clubs also may have social activities). Perhaps the most crucial distinction is between the MC and MCC, the clubs your referring to *tend* to abbreviate Motorcycle club to MC, while sporting clubs *tend* to abbreviate it to MCC. Pickle 13:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Not to split hairs, but please don't lump all clubs together by refering to "...road bikers, on cruisers (ie Harley's) tending to not entirely legal activities." Yes there are some 1% clubs, but there are also MANY clubs dedicated to good works, showing pride in a common background (ie military or vet MCs), or even Christian MCs! Even one up on that... the Blue Knights, of which membership requirements designate that the prospective member "Be an active full or part time law enforcement officer with powers of arrest."
Supersquid 00:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean that but the inference of this article makes it appear that all motorcycle clubs are...... Pickle 11:37, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red Knights MC

I removed all references to the Red Knights from this page because, after reading their membership requirements, it is clear that, "Membership is open to ALL firefighters, active or retired, volunteer, or industrial, who have access to a motorcycle and hold a valid motorcycle drivers license". Therefore, the Red Knights is not a motorcycle club (MC) according to the definitions of this article. It is, instead, a motorcycle riding club. Mmoyer 01:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to be awkward and disagree here again. Most, if not all of the hundreds of motorcycle clubs i know have extremely open membership requirements (ie practically anyone can join), this does not mean they are not motorcycle clubs! Of course some clubs have more stringent criteria for membership. I think you are referring to an artificial wikipedia distinction that doesn't exist in reality - the definition in this article refers to the Hells Angels et Al type of club. Pickle 11:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I've tried giving the article's intro a rewrite, while leaving intact as much as possible the excellent work relating to the Hell Angels et al phenomenon. I'm not happy with some of the phrases I'm using as i don't think I've articulated my numerous years of understanding as a motorcyclist correctly. Pickle 12:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Ummm but the Red Knights is a MC and not a riding club. They have three piece patches, are organized as chapters, have bylaws, etc. Just because they have fairly lax membership rules does not make them just a riding club. If you've seen the brotherhood/sisterhood between police/firefighters/EMTs/other emergency services, you'd understand why it's open. Don't need to have prospects/probies when you're already tried by fire (no pun intended). I say allow Red Knights/Blue Knights to be mentioned in the article. Comments?
Supersquid 01:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I understand about the tight feelings that police/firefighters/EMTs have (I was an EMT), but they have no probate period. Remember, to be in an MC a member has to pledge total allegiance to their club brothers/sisters, and mail order colors just don't cut it. The Red Knights run a serious risk of having a 1% club yank the colors right off of their backs, IMHO. Mmoyer 01:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MC vs. Riding club, racing club, MCC, etc

I carefully reviewed the changes made by Pickle to this article, and I believe that a discussion of non-MCs, as defined in the version by me (Mmoyer) belong in a separate article titled "Motorcycle riding club". Such an article would allow complete freedom to expound on all types of clubs that are not "American-style" MCs, as defined by this article. Therefore, I have reverted the most recent set of changes by Pickle to maintain the focus of this article. Mmoyer 16:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

While i admire your aim of keeping the focus of your efforts concentrated i don't think the phrase "motorcycle club" is the right term/phrase for what you are describing, i also think the phrase "motorcycle riding club" is inappropriate for what i am trying to describe. i believe the scope exists for the same article to deal with all types of motorcycle club (sporting, owners, north American with criminal tendencies or not, etc, etc). In my very humble opinion as a life long motorcyclist, as member of a club [1], having many friends and family in numerous clubs, being deeply involved with the UK governing body (ACU) i feel deeply offended by this attempt to appropriate the phrase "motorcycle club" from what i believe it truly means. i by no means want to belittle your efforts with the work you are doing here, but by using the phrase "motorcycle club" exclusively for reference to clubs like the Hells Angels, you inadvertently offend/upset/tarnish/etc anyone in all other forms of "motorcycle club", while the abstract phrase "motorcycle riding club" means nothing or little to those involved. at the very least in resolution to this apparent edit conflict can we agree to turn motorcycle club into a disambiguation while atempting to create suitable phrase to describe the various sub type of motorcycle club acuratly with implicatly or subtly causing offence to any party concered. Pickle 21:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Just going out on a limb here... isn't one of the tenants of Wikipedia to go with the "common denominator" regardless of the technicalities (popular usage)? I googled "motorcycle club" and got a big majority of hits that refered to "American Cruiser style motorcycle clubs." While this does seem USA-centric, google is worldwide. I don't believe a disambig page should be created; instead, add a disambig link at the top stating that this applies to a specific style of club or something....
Supersquid 22:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Thats a very valid critique of my argument but i must add "world view" case (see Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias ), to me there are lots of motorcycle clubs out there but are their members necessarily IT literate enough to have made the required impact on Google??? A Google search from this side of the pond ( [[2]] ) brings up lists of clubs, several owners clubs (distinct from the "American Cruiser style motorcycle clubs"). I really do see the validity of work on the "American Cruiser style motorcycle clubs" side and its in part my fault for not tackling this issue earlier that the other aspects of "motorcycle clubs" have not been sufficiently covered here on Wikipedia *yet* ...... I don't by any means to imply i have the answer, but i don't think the current situation is right either. Pickle 12:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. You raise some very valid points, and I certainly don't want anyone to be offended or upset. Nonetheless, I still continue to believe that "American-style" motorcycle clubs, as a specific cultural phenomenon, need their own article, but perhaps it could be retitled, "Motorcycle club (American style MC)", while the article that covers other motorcycle clubs (to which I have referred to as motorcycle riding clubs) could be titled "Motorcyle club (generic term)". The two articles could then refer to each other. Thoughts? Mmoyer 01:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with ""American-style" motorcycle clubs, as a specific cultural phenomenon", as its a very worthy topic, i just can't phrase the right title in my mind that correctly convey what we're talking about without sounding to convoluted or offencive. IMHO Hells Angels et al are not restricted to north America, par se - and, there are plenty of "other type" motorcycle clubs that are in North America. Similarly i have yet to conjure up a good phrase to describe the "other" type of motorcycle clubs out there. As a step in the right direction perhaps we could change this article to point to at least 3 separate articles; one about the Hells Angels et al, the second about other road biking clubs (eg VMCC, Triumph Owners MCC, etc, etc) and a third about "sporting" clubs that promote sporting events (eg Dirt Diggers North [3], my club [4], etc). Its a move in the right direction that avoid creating an overtly complex article here that would appear contradictory to user unfamiliar with this area. Pickle 13:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Its hard to think of a good name for this, or a division of material, that would not offend someone. Difficult to see an approach that could not be construed as POV. Good luck.Seasalt 02:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I've been away, run a mx meeting and a trial and still can't think of the right phrase, once i / someone else conjures one up i can go forward! Pickle 14:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Outlaw Biker World

Outlaw Biker World is a website that has news articles (and More) for the Motorcycle/Outlaw community. I feel a link to it from this page is appropriate. The link is [5]

The link is already present as Reference #3, though it is shown as its former name, Bikernews.net. Good idea, and thanks for the suggestion. Mmoyer 16:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable MCs

This section of the article is meant for truly notable clubs, either for their size, notoriety (good or otherwise), or historical significance. Please refrain from adding your personal club to this list unless it meets this criteria. Mmoyer 03:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Vampires MC seems like a riding club, and has only two chapters. Not sure it meets the "notable" criteria. Please discuss before adding. Thanks! Mmoyer 03:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the idea of not turning this article into a list of the thousands of motorcycle clubs worldwide, but if the club - in this case Vampires Motorcycle Club is "notable" enough that they have a wikipedia article, then who are we not to have them mentioned somewhere on this article? Alternatively, maybe the article "Vampires Motorcycle Club" should be put up for deletion is its not notably enough? - we can have on or the other option but surly not the continued existence of that clubs article, yet refuse to mention it here in this article? --Pickle 17:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Vampires MC is not a riding club. The club has a nine-month prospect period, and new members must be patched in by unanimous club vote (i.e. not anyone can join like an RC). It also has history in California dating back to the 1950s. Must an MC must have a vast criminal record to be considered notable? You seem to be editing down the list of notable clubs to 1%ers only.Wkyirqi 18:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I could find no letters "MC" on their patch (but clear photos were unavailable that I could see), I could see no info on a probationary period, their meetings are open to the public, they have only two chapters, and, despite their history from the 50's, they were defunct until that past couple of years. They just don't seem notable to me. The U.S. Military Veterans MC, on the other hand, is not a 1% club, has a documented probationary period, wears a highly visible MC patch, has 45 chapters in 19 states, and is 19 years old. That seems notable to me. I admit it's somewhat subjective, but Wiktionary defines 'notable' as "Worthy of notice; remarkable; memorable; noted or distinguished". USMVMC meets the notable criteria by its size alone, as well as its military veteran slant. The HA, Pagans, Mongols, Bandidos and Outlaws are notable by their reputation and size. The Boozefighters are notable for their history in the "Hollister incident". The Wild Pigs as a law enforcement club (not 1%) with a national reputation, and so on. Perhaps another way of looking at it is this: Adding a club to the list should enhance the readers understanding of motorcycle clubs. I hope this helps. Mmoyer 03:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding whether a club is notable enough to have an article: though there are limits on a persons notoriety for a bio article, I do not believe that extends beyond individual biographies. Many small towns and villages have Wikipedia articles despite their otherwise lack of noteworthiness. Mmoyer 03:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Its really an issue of reconciling the fact we have and List of motorcycle clubs with the article. By posing the opposite (ie why has a non notable club got an article) I'm trying to reconcile this from the other end. Mmoyer's hits the nail on the head with does the club further this article, if it doesn't then it goes to the list. Pickle 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
That Vampires MC meetings are open to the public is inconsequential--many motorcycle clubs hold open meetings for visitors. The San Francisco Motorcycle Club's weekly meetings, for example, are always open to the public, and there is no question as to that club's status as a bona fide MC. The Vampires MC was not defunct until "a couple of years ago", it was defunct until 1993--that would be thirteen years. The club's website hosts a discussion forum and hundreds of pictures from rides, rallies and other events over the past 13 years, which certainly should enhance a reader's understanding of what many MCs are all about--riding and camaraderie. There are no images online of the current, complete Vampires MC patch. The graphic on the Vampires' Wiki article is just the top rocker. There is also a lower city rocker, and a separate MC patch. Finally, there is public information on the club's prospect period, you just didn't look hard enough.Wkyirqi 08:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Abutre's MC has been added as a notable MC. The Wiki page claims they are the 3rd largest in the world. Can anyone verify that they even exist in substantial numbers in the southern hemisphere? War 2:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite Progress Update ?

This article is still really nagging me, and is crying out for either rewrite or expansion, but i really can't think of any suitable sets of words to really account accurately and inoffensively for the different types of motorcycle clubs that are out there. Anyone else had any thought on this topic ??? Pickle

Given that there is already an Outlaw motorcycle club article and a Motorcycle gang article, this article seems far too weighted towards 1% clubs to me. They make up the minority of MCs, yet information specific to them makes up most of this article. For example, until someone just added them to the list of notable MCs, Yonkers MC and SFMC (the two oldest clubs in the country, est. 1903 and 1904 respectively) did not even get a mention. Neither are outlaw clubs, which I suppose makes them less exciting and titillating to the layperson, but that's a crying shame considering their rich histories. IMHO this article should just gloss over the subject of outlaw MCs and link to the more detailed article on them. Regarding the logistical and philosophical differences between RCs, MCs and Outlaw MCs, this site has some valuable information that might help you out.Wkyirqi 00:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, frankly, IMHO both the Outlaw motorcycle club and Motorcycle gang articles are factually inaccurate and in dire need of Wikification. Earlier versions of this article got lots of complaints for being filled with misconceptions and so on, so I will accept that the recent lack of same is a good thing. Let's face it: it's sorta hard to talk much about MCs without mentioning that the 5 largest clubs in the U.S. are 1%ers. The truth is, it's hard to be in a non-1% MC, because to maintain MC status you have to either put up or shut up against a 1% club, which is a tough act. At least one Pagan clubhouse has a wall of shame - colors they've taken from clubs they have forcibly disbanded. FWIW. Mmoyer 03:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
"it's sorta hard to talk much about MCs without mentioning that the 5 largest clubs in the U.S. are 1%ers. The truth is, it's hard to be in a non-1% MC, because to maintain MC status you have to either put up or shut up against a 1% club" - but this fails to take into account the other types of motorcycle clubs out there.... Im going to have a read thoguh that link Wkyirqi provided.. Pickle 19:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
The terms used on that site may be sufficient to explain here on Wikipedia the American perspective on the biking community and how it is structured but i really feel that it fail to address or even explain at all how the motorcycle community operates on this side of the pond Pickle 19:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't disagree with you, Mmoyer, and I definitely don't think that this article should ignore the elephant in the room by not briefly discussing 1% clubs and their relation to mainstream MCs. I just think that it goes into too much detail when that should be reserved for a separate article. The final paragraph of the "One Percenters" section, for example, lists specific crimes and the clubs that allegedly committed them--I think that's over the top for an article that's supposed to be about generic MC culture and traditions. It could also be be noted that there are quite a few MCs these days that are not AMA-chartered (so 1% in the strictest sense of the term) but are 100% law abiding and choose not to charter with the AMA for financial or political reasons. In other words, AMA affiliation alone is not really the litmus test for "outlaw" clubs that it might have been 50 years ago.Wkyirqi 20:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'm certainly open to further expanding the article in terms of generic MC culture and traditions, so please feel free to contribute more material in that area. Nonetheless, I think the materials about 1%ers is valuable and contributes a great deal to the article. Mmoyer 03:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
So are we all agreeing to move the bulk of the current article to a page (new or existing) that covers the North American "1%ers", turning the current page into some sort of disambiguation page. What we're searching for as i see it, is correct terms/phrase that covers the variety of terms out there (see above talk - some way up) Pickle 16:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I did read through the above talk but I'm not sure that I'm following you. Moving this page to a "North American 1%ers" page would make three articles on outlaw MCs (along with Outlaw motorcycle club and Motorcycle gang articles), and zero article on mainstream MCs. "Outlaw" and "One Percenter" are effectively synonymous, and while "Gang" is basically a term tacked on by law enforcement, all three words are basically pointing to the same animal.Wkyirqi 21:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
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