Talk:Motion Picture Association of America film rating system

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Contents 1 Modern Porn Film Genesis 2 Which countries? 3 True or false?? 4 Male genitalia 5 United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' Office for Film and Broadcasting 6 Drug references 7 Adding profanity for PG-13 8 POV allegation of sexism? 9 Nudity in PG-13? 10 "The rating process" 11 Live-action G ratings 12 Early PG-13 13 Ratings Creep 14 Alcohol & tobacco 15 The rating process (disputed?) 16 Sex offenses and double standard for free speech. 17 R rating gets removed 18 Michael Medved on the R rating 19 NC-17 rating "surrendered" 20 Request for images 21 Humor? 22 MPAA serial numbers appearing in end credits of a film 23 NC-17 spells death? 24 Indecency v. Obscenity 25 PC-13 Link 26 The Quality of the Actual Article in Question 27 Unusual wording for PG rating of "Jaws"

[edit] Modern Porn Film Genesis

I know there was a blatant porn film in the 1960s that was a box-office hit, and it sparked the wave of porn films that continues to this day. I thought it was Debbie Does Dallas, but I guess I was wrong about that. Was it Deep Throat? Modemac

Deep Throat is probably the movie you are thinking of in the sense that it was the one that sparked the modern wave of porn films, but it came out in the early 70s, which was also after the MPAA implemented its rating system. soulpatch

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[edit] Which countries?

In which countries is this system used?

The US uses it, but a few more may also. I know most countries have their own system. If you look up a film on the IMDB (http://www.imdb.com) and look up a movie, down near the bottom it will give its ratings in various different countries. Most have their own. Some roughly correspond to the MPAA ratings, some have no likeness at all.

It'd be nice to list which other countries, if any, also use the exact MPAA rating though. —Frecklefoot 13:43, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This is one of the best links pages available: http://rcq.qc.ca/sites.asp and I apparently know more about this subject than anyone else...

How about articles on those other rating systems and links to them from this article? Who's up for it? Not it! Kent Wang 19:15, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, we'll link to it once it exists. If you want to create it, go ahead and create the link here and write it. —Frecklefoot 19:58, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] True or false??

True or false: A common assumption is that you should stop watching G-rated movies after the age of about 10-12 years. (Please do not mis-interpret this; this is the problem about a common assumption, not about what the rules of the rating system say.)

I'm not sure what you're getting at. That statement isn't made anywhere in the article (unless I missed it). I've never heard that assumption. Why do you say it's a "common assumption?" Please clarify. Personally, I don't watch too many G-rated films anymore, but that's because not too many are made anymore, not because none of them are worth watching. —Frecklefoot 21:29, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

The answer is a rule that people make for themselves although not made by a company such as MPAA.

I agree. People decide for themselves, although consider also the recent studies about marketing violence,etc. to children. There is a gender issue here as well. Girls tend not to have any complaints seeing a G film, at ages when boys (eager to achieve adult masculinity) want to constantly challenge limits and eat "forbidden fruit." That problem is part of why classification systems have been criticized. If offensive or controversial content is called "adult" then it suggests that if kids want to prove their maturity, that content provides a means by which to do so.

Um, okay. I still had never heard the assumption before. However, most G-rated films do seem to be geared towards children, while PG and higher are geared towards older people. Some filmmakers are able to make G-rated films that people of all ages are able to enjoy, however. For example, Disney used to be good at doing this (and Pixar still does).

Also, you should sign your posts. Since you don't have an account (or aren't logged-in), I assume you're new to Wikipedia. We can still see who made the edits, but signing your posts saves everyone the trouble of going to the Page History to see who said what. You can sign your posts by entering three or four tildes, like this ~~~~. Three tildes enters your username (or IP address if you're not logged-in) and four does the same, but also adds a timestamp. Cheers! —Frecklefoot 14:17, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Male genitalia

The article currently asserts that any display of male genitalia will (usually) result in an NC17 rating. I believe this is incorrect. Never Cry Wolf (film) is rated PG, and shows brief full-frontal male nudity. Does anyone have any source for the claim? Otherwise I'll remove it. Quadell (talk) 20:21, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

I wish I could post my contact info and have everyone send questions to me. I have extensive information, researched firsthand, on these sorts of matters. Unfortunately, I haven't yet earned a PhD and therefore have difficulty getting my work known. This is just one topic among many in which lots of rumors fly. Mature male genitalia, so long as not in an aroused state, is NOT NC-17 material - it is typically R (Watch the film "Prospero's Books") but under certain conditions (outside of a sexual context and with brief, non-graphic portrayals) it has been allowed in PG-13 films. Pre-pubescent nudity is legally not considered to be indecent, and has hardly registered on the ratings so long as it isn't connected with other content. (For example, "My Father's Glory" received a G rating although it contained child nudity and a brief close-up of a mother nursing her infant.) The MPAA is trying to give a fair treatment to both male and female nudity. There are many, many cases where "full frontal" female nudity has appeared in films that are below an R rating, however it is significant that with females this usually amounts to having the pubic area unclothed but NOT necessarily the actual exposure of genitalia. Therefore, the dilemma facing the ratings board is how to be gender fair. Brief public hair in a non-sexual, non exhibitionist context can receive a PG-13 for either sex. But if actual genitalia are seen on either sex, an R is the normal classification to be considered unless the board can fairly assess a reason why the content is mitigated. So, just as "Passion in the Desert" allowed full male nudity (although it must be noted that the dust and such in the desert provided a form of makeup that, for example, did not render visible details such as skin tone/hues) there are a very limited number of circumstances where the board could consider that female genitalia could be exposed in a manner that could NOT be considered deliberately indecent. (Pascali's Island is a noteworthy case where, in separate scenes, brief full nudity was allowed for each sex (one scene a man in a sauna, and another scene allowing a nude woman swimming.) One case in which female genitalia might possibly be allowed in a PG-13 film would be in documentary-like circumstances involving childbirth. Although I haven't yet been able to verify this, I have heard that the precedent for that form of nudity can be found in the 1985 Sting film "Bring on the Night." (Although the board was more lenient with the ratings at that time.) 136.181.195.29 17:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)Mike S

Hold it right there. Never Cry Wolf does NOT have frontal male nudity. It shows his ass and that's it. --Nqnpipnr

In a Sunday edition of the New York Times sometime in the winter of 1970-1971, there was an article about the MPAA rating system which included the fact that while total female nudity is (or was at that time) sometimes allowed in R films, "the male genitalia, more sacred, remains X material - out of bounds even for teenagers" (a verbatim quote from the article as best as I can recall it) -- TOttenville8 02:20, Sep 01 2004 (PDT)

I think Superman (rated PG) showed male genitalia, but it was a child's (immediately after he crash-lands on Earth). But I think usually mg does result in an NC17 rating. Kind of a double-standard, but one of the criteria they use. I don't have any resources to back up this assertion, though. I know that a Bruce Willis movie had to be re-edited with full-frontal nude scenes of him edited out because the MPAA gave it an NC-17 rating. — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:49, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

I'm guessing that it's male genitalia in a sexual context that will lead to an NC-17. Though I wonder what Never Cry Wolf would be rated today... Tregoweth 22:26, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

You're probably right about that. The nudity in Superman wasn't sexual, neither was it (I assume) in NCW. There was also some non-sexual (though violent) male gonad nudity in Little Drummer Girl, but I think it was just an R. MG + sex must be the key. The Bruce Willis nudity was--I assume--sexual. — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:04, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

"Passion in the Desert" has male frontal and rear nudity and was only rated PG-13! The MPAA is more lenient towards male nudity than it is towards female nudity. You'll notice that more PGs and PG-13s (and some Gs) have male nudity than female nudity. (10 January 2006)

What exactly is a sexual vs. non-sexual context for nudity, anyway? The film Manon des Sources (sequel to Jean de Florette-- both are obviously French, but big budget and still pretty wide release in America I think) received a PG rating, in the late '80s, after PG-13 existed.

It has a very graphic scene of full female nudity, a young woman strutting in a clearing by a river after having bathed. You may say non-sexual and acceptable in PG, except that 1. she directly faces the camera, 2. she is being watched at the time by a peeping tom middle aged man who just happens to have killed her father a few years earlier, 3. her character is only 16 or 17, and the actress (Emanuelle Beart) may have been quite young as well, maybe under 18. Also, landing-strip pubic hair is clearly visible. The scene is quite brief, but not just a matter of milliseconds.

"Total Eclipse" features a full-frontal nude Leonardo DiCaprio and it's only rated R. It's a very brief shot, but he's tossing his clothes out a window, so it could be perceived as sexual.

136.181.195.29 17:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)That kind of thing would require a PG-13 just a year or two later, as the board tightened its criteria. The difference between sexual and nonsexual is the following: 1. Are characters actively engaged with each other (caresses, kissing, passion, genital contact or some other form of mutual stimulation)? 2. Is the exposed character deliberately flaunting herself for the explicit purpose of arousing an audience? The latter point can be debated, obviously; but the board will declare topless bar dancers to be sex-related nudity, although natural bathing contexts tend not to be (despite hints in the context) because there is still a reasonable doubt as to whether the nudity was intended as a "come on." Example: "King David" (PG-13) - although there is an element of sensual effects and awareness, because it is in the context of natural bathing, the female nudity is allowable in PG-13. In the bed scene, although toplessness is allowed, no sexual activity is going on at that time. Another example: "The Inner Circle" (1991) - after audible sexuality and brief rhythm visible in bedcovers, Tom Hulce's buttocks are briefly seen. This case is one of the most permissive ever to be allowed in the PG-13 category, but it can technically be argued that the intercourse had stopped by the time the buttocks were visible; and we also cannot really see the woman in that shot's composition. 136.181.195.29 17:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS

Another good one was Once Upon a Time in the West. rated G. hah! I love that movie. one of the most beautiful/disturbing things ever.

It was NOT rated G. It was rated M. Go check the MPAA ratings site please.... The problem is that too many people spout information on this topic without references, from flawed memories. As a result, it is a nightmare to try to keep the content on the Wiki site in line and half-consistent. 136.181.195.29 17:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS

Mrs. Brown has male frontal and rear and it got a "PG"!

• Three words: 'Jackass Number Two. —tregoweth (talk) 21:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' Office for Film and Broadcasting

Is the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' Office for Film and Broadcasting even vaguely relevant here? No. Moving to own article. -- The Anome 20:40, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is relevant because this organization is a direct descendant of the National Legion of Decency, which once wielded great power in the American film industry, from the 1930s to at least the 1950s (I have since added this info to the article that was spun off from this one). Still, I restored only a fleeting reference to it in this article. --TOttenville8 2:15, 01 Sep 2004 (PDT)

But, dude, it has its own article. The link is more appropriate there. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:31, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Drug references

Mild drug references do not have to result in a movie being rated PG-13. Movies rated PG for drug references include Shrek 2, Love's Labour's Lost, Trekkies, Freebird...The Movie and Cop And A Half. - Mike Rosoft 16:20, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Adding profanity for PG-13

Sneakers and Mystery Science Theater 3000 are listed in this article as films which added profanity to avoid a G rating -- except that both of them wound up with a PG-13 rating. If they wound up with PG-13 ratings -- two levels away from a G rating -- it would seem unlikely that they were really at risk for being rated G. Maybe they added the profanity to move from PG to PG-13; I don't know. But I think we could probably find a better example to use here, that is, a movie that added profanity to move from G to PG, not a PG-13 movie. --Metropolitan90 06:00, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Question: I heard that Star Wars avoided a G Raing by the addition of the scene in the bar involving the severed alien arm (Ben cuts the arm off with his light saber). My film professor in college told us this story. Does anyone know if it is true? Do movie companies try to achieve certain ratings for marketing reasons? (i.e. often higher ratings than they would naturally be?)

A couple of other notes: I can't find evidence of a United States v. Playboy Inc. decision in 1951 that ruled that movies were protected by the First Amendment. (Note that Hugh Hefner's Playboy magazine did not even exist in 1951.) I'm not sure that "postmodernism" is the accurate term to describe the increase in sex and profanity in movies, and Requiem for a Dream was released unrated rather than with the NC-17 it had originally earned. --Metropolitan90 04:17, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

Burstyn v. Wilson (1952) is the SCOTUS decision that extended FA protection to films. I know of no court case known as "US v. Playboy Inc."

[edit] POV allegation of sexism?

Interestingly, a sexist double-standard can be seen in this pattern: it is considered acceptable for high-status white middle aged men to use such language during important discussions, and yet the same year's milder film "Class Action" was given an R rating either because it was considered less politically important (i.e. more fictionalized) or because of the presence of a woman in one of these uses. Such inconsistencies date back even to Farber's original involvement on the board in 1970, as described in his book "The Movie Ratings Game" and tend to vary from time to time. Apparently, a re-evaluation of rating applications are made approximately every 5 years, or as critical issues arise.

This is a rather POV statement, which, even if true, cites a dubious source which is not stated clearly. Pending discussion, I have commented it out in the page's source code. Andrew pmk 18:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Although my original reference did not claim sexism, and has been seriously warped by later revisions, I was the one to point out the example of "Class Action" originally. Now, the problem here is that it is improper to cite my own original research on Wikipedia, and yet this subject has NO good research yet published on it. I will publish mine when I get the chance (and complete a PhD) but in lieu of citing a study, my idea for a citation would be the films themselves, as follows: Watch "Class Action" (and some other films I could name, but "Class Action" is the clearest instance where the R rating was clearly attributable ONLY to profanity) and then compare it with PG-13 films of the same year. "Guilty By Suspicion" allowed 9 uses of the f-word in the context of the Red Scare/Blacklist scenario (an "important" political context for which "All the President's Men" was clearly the precedent, PG in 1976). "The Inner Circle" allows 5 uses, "Eminent Domain" also had multiple uses in PG-13, among other content. Given the history of film board operation (the use of clear criteria) the question must be asked: what distinguishes the R rated "Class Action" from the many cases in the same year where language content was comparable or greater and yet was allowed a PG-13. My analysis suggested that the only candidate explanation (if we assume consistency by the board) is that one of the uses was in a forceful manner with a woman as listener. A contrasting case, the film "Impromptu" (1991 PG-13) had three uses, one of which was with sexual meaning in the presence of a woman, and yet that fit the case where the board could agree upon mitigating factors because Impromptu included scenes with child characters, had a clearer historical background (thus educational context, as with All the President's Men), and a British "talkie" setting in which one of those uses was likely not even to be noticed at all by the average American youth under 13 (with accent, arguable sounding more like "fox" than something profane) and thus likely making the profanity count more like 2 rather than 3 (2 uses of f-word accounting for something like 25% of all PG-13 films of that year; thus the MPAA wording that more than one use must LEAD the board to consider an R - LEAD but not REQUIRE). 136.181.195.29 17:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS.

[edit] Nudity in PG-13?

There needs to be some section or subsection, like in the rating guidelines, on how much nudity is allowed in a PG-13 feature. What brought this to mind was, of course, Titanic. --24.172.77.138 02:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC) ([[User:Golbez from another PC)

It depends on what year the movie was rated, the context and the standards at the time. Take a look at "M", "GP" and "PG" movies from the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s. (January 23, 2006)

The nude scene in titanic was not in a sexual matter. The subject matter is that it was art and therefor did not get an R rating. Besides, if Full female nudity is allowed in a sexual way for an R rated movie, than full female nudity in a non-sexual way must be lower than R.

It's more complicated than that. In the film "Nobody's Fool" nonsexual female toplessness was marked as a partial reason for the R rating. Although nonsexual, the nudity did not have a naturalistic context (since it occurred in the context of a backroom card game) and one of the boards concerns would be the "normalization" of deviant nudity if it is portrayed as completely acceptable. It's one thing for a woman to accidentally be seen, but another for her to go topless around men in an ordinary American setting as if there were nothing at all controversial about it. This also makes for a contextual different important in many European films, where nudity actually is normalized in many ordinary conditions of life and thus (like scenes of indigenous traditional tribal lifestyles) is simply giving an accurate cultural presentation of the standards of a different culture. Anyway, full nudity is not automatically lower than R if nonsexual. In fact, after Titanic there was a marked decrease in the percentage of PG-13 films (as the R percentage continued to decrease) and a simultaneous reduction in the amount of nudity needed to earn an R (and similarly a reduction in what was permitted in PG-13) - what appeared to be a tightening of the standards on nudity. Other point - visible pubic regions during sexual scenes usually earns an NC-17 (example: Dark Obsession, in which the only distinction between its sex scene and those of innumerable R-rated films was the fact that the female public area could be briefly discerned.) This is an envelope that is being pushed, however, by lots of softcore (R-rated/late-night Cinemax) filmmakers.

It may not have been overt, but it was definitely sexual. Garglebutt / (talk) 02:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Not indisputably sexual, no. (See my above comments Re: bathing) Like bathing, artistic poses are a recognized context mitigating the appearance of nudity. 136.181.195.29 18:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS.

[edit] "The rating process"

This section needs to be rewritten and fact-checked. Some items are incorrect/misleading/iffy, including:

"It is extremely rare for an NC-17 rating to be given for violence/profanity alone."

Wes Craven has discussed the many times he had to edit the violence in his films to get R Ratings. Also, the makers of South Park went public with their battle with the MPAA over the movie's language. Kevin Smith's Clerks was originally given an NC-17 for language. "The Hills Have Eyes" remake was originally given an NC-17 for violence.

"While total female nudity is permitted in an R-rated movie, any display of naked male genitalia will (usually) result in an NC-17 rating unless it's non-sexual, such as the concentration camp scenes in the R-rated film Schindler's List."

A little misleading? In most R movies, frontal nudity, male or female, is not shown during the actual sex. It would probably be NC-17 anyway. And I don't know if these count as "sexual" or not, but a couple examples of R movies with male frontal nudity include Sideways, Trainspotting, Scary Movie, and Boogie Nights. These didn't happen during actual sex scenes, but they certainly didn't have the artistic context of a Holocaust reenactment.

Other bullets, like the "legitimate historical or educational value" claim and the PG-13 drug reference claim, should have examples to strengthen the point. Crumbsucker 13:07, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I was the author of the NC-17 point. The main source I relied on for that was movie critic Roger Ebert, who quoted in his review of "The Passion of The Christ", that it was the "most violent movie he had ever seen, and it proved that the MPAA would either 1. Not give the NC-17 rating for violence alone, or 2. Were intimidated by the subject matter. Believe me, if it were anyone other than Jesus up on that cross, I think an NC-17 rating would be automatic." This and other points in this section are extremely subjective, and perhaps they should be removed unless there can be more actual proof. The problem however, lies in the fact that the MPAA keeps their criteria secret. I guess it is a judgment call on whether this section should go entirely, or would do more good to remain as an intelligent guess. I don't care either way. The "legitimate historical or educational value" claim is another subjective point. I think it is apparent through common sense that the MPAA treats movies like "Saving Private Ryan", "Schindler's List", and even "The Passion of the Christ" with a lighter touch then say, "South Park", or "Friday the 13th". Whether they should or not is open to debate, but again, it is a judgment call we need to make between going with what would be our best guess, or removing it entirely. Seems to be it will be tough to prove either way.

[edit] Live-action G ratings

The "interesting" factoid about how Star Trek: The Motion Picture was the last "mega-marketed, non-animated big studio film with a G rating" seems a little thin. What are the criteria? What does "mega-marketed" mean? What comprises a "big studio"? There have been plenty of other G-rated live-action movies since then. With all those stipulations, it seems like a pretty weak statistic. Kafziel 14:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

"non-animated" excludes the thirteenth highest grossing box office smash in the USA, Finding Nemo (2003, gross: $339,714,367)

The factoid also (for apparent reason) excludes live-action movies such as The Princess Diaries (2001; gross: $108,244,774), The Princess Diaries 2 (2004; gross: $95,149,435), The Santa Clause 2 (2002; gross: $139,225,854, the first one was rated PG) and Babe (1995; gross: $66,600,000).

These movies were released by Disney or Universal, both "big studios" Tskoge 14:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early PG-13

In many films from 1984 to 1986 rated PG-13, sexual content was abundant. One of this films was "The Woman in Red". Anyone remembers the Kelly LeBrock's genitals?

Distinction: her pubic area. The shot was not graphic enough to actually show genitalia. However, you are correct that more nudity was permitted at that time, under the PG-13 rating, than throughout most of the 1990s. There may be a very recent shift in the last couple of years, though... it's too soon for me to evaluate the most recent trends yet. 136.181.195.29 18:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS.

Spaceballs got a PG in 1987, despite including the "F" word. The mysteries of the ratings gods are inscrutable. AnonMoos 15:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

• I suppose if it was nonsexual, it was okay. Though it would, of course, guarantee a PG-13 today. tregoweth 17:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

• Beetlejuice did, too. The line - "Nice fuckin' model!" - is one of my favorites. Kafziel 05:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing the mention of Dreamscape from the PG-13 discussion; it's generally agreed that the Spielberg films were the specific impetus. tregoweth 03:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The TWO Spielberg films were of course the impetus, but they NEVER ACTUALLY received PG-13 ratings. To this day they remain PG. Regarding the question of what the first film was actually to be granted the rating, I remember clearly that "Dreamscape" was announced as the first, by the MPAA. "Red Dawn" actually got to the theaters first, however. I have no clue why someone keeps putting up there that "The Flamingo Kid" was the first. There's never a citation for that. Given more time, I'll assemble citations for the news announcement from July 1984 that would document (or deny) my memory of Dreamscape being specifically announced, but my memory is vivid. The news release even included the number of seconds that were required to edit the film down from an R to a PG-13. Interestingly, some of the reframed footage was placed back onto the videotape in its original R format, although the tape continued to (then falsely) carry the PG-13 rating. Not supposed to be allowed - changing the films but then claiming the same rating - but that's another topic entirely. 136.181.195.29 18:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS.

[edit] Ratings Creep

""Rating creep" is a concern of parents and watchdog agencies, but is actually an oversimplification or outright myth."

This seems unencyclopedic. I don't believe that there is any substantial ratings creep, but I'm not sure starting the article by saying it's a myth is better than saying it exists. It ought to discuss whether it exists, not say whehter it does.Nedlum 18:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The Med Journal editor (where the ratings creep study appeared) agreed that I should submit an article critiquing that extremely flawed and misleading study; but I have had so many things going on, including moving, and I have to re-locate and pull out all my notes and documentation. The problem is that the claims of ratings creep are misleading, seeming to come from activist organizations that want to believe such an idea in order to help rally their troops. Yet, all evidence shows that in the vast majority of criteria, the trend during the 1990s was exactly the opposite of what the Thompson study claimed. I've revised the text and included more referenced to the films themselves (such as the early G films) that anyone can verify by renting and comparing. 136.181.195.29 18:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS

[edit] Alcohol & tobacco

The article previously suggested that an explicit or graphic scene of alcohol or tobacco use would earn a film an R rating. I have no reason to believe this is correct. Note, for example, that The Straight Story [1] and Buena Vista Social Club [2] both depicted alcohol and/or tobacco use, and were given G ratings. I don't know how much more "explicit" or "graphic" they would have had to be in terms of alcohol and tobacco to be bumped up three ratings categories to an R. By the same token, last year Good Night, and Good Luck was noted for its extensive depiction of smoking by the characters [3] and still received a PG rating.

On a separate note, the opening of the article referred to the MPAA rating system as a method of classifying "obscene" content. Obscenity is a legal term in the USA, and obscene movies can be banned depending on local law. Hardly any films that the MPAA rates contain "obscene" content as defined by American law. I changed this to refer to "potentially offensive" content. --Metropolitan90 00:11, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The rating process (disputed?)

The article mentions that this section is disputed, and even though I can't find any real discussion here on the talk page, I agree that it could be improved; There seems to be too much focus on fixed "rules", although they are prefixed with words like "usually" or "typically", which is good. According to this interview with The Business, there are no such rules, and I think this is credible - everything else doesn't make sense anyway. Elsdoerfer 20:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

There are rules, but most of them are not described publicly (an exception being the f-word treatment described in the MPAA's own booklet written by Jack Valenti). For citations, "The Movie Ratings Game" by Stephen Farber, is a good one. He clearly describes the manner in which board members were instructed by the chair. A brand new citation which is an excellent new source not previously available, is "Freedom and Entertainment" by Stephen Vaughan, which is based upon extensive taped interviews (I believe in official LOC archive), with Richard Heffner, who headed the CARA from the mid 70s for something like the following 20 years. In those interviews, he confirms the establishment of rating guidelines, describes some of them and how and why they changed (or were bent by people playing the system in various ways... for example, the unauthorized distribution of the X-rated version of "Cruising" (1980) instead of the version that was authorized as an R.) 136.181.195.29 18:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS

[edit] Sex offenses and double standard for free speech.

I wish to paste this comment from one I made for a movie site to gauge reaction to something that cannot be disputed if you apply equal standards to what children see in their homes:

Millions of sexual offenses are committed daily by Hollywood and parents in the name of free speech. Let me explain about that with a real life example. My brother in law would tell his little brother and his girlfriend that part of the terms of staying with us was for protection of his children and keeping them out of jail: Don't curse violently or speek of sex in a lewd manner in front of my kids or wife. Dont' come out of the bathroom with your private parts exposed. Your room has no door, don't begin having sex even with your clothes on until my children are asleep. It sounds like the typical boundaries we keep for our children's protection, and so that noone is guilty of a sexual offense, right? Now, the brother in law was like any typical American redneck. He wouldn't keep the fact that he had kids from his seeing any recent Hollywood release. After all, the law allows us to take our kids to see rated R movies, so they are fit for my 4 kids, ages 7-12. Almost everyone does it. Billy, the brother in law knew, that in the name of free speech, the profanity and sexual dialogue has NO limit by law. Billy knew the actors may flash their penises and the actresses may get naked Billy knew that you may see a man suck a woman's breast and lick her private parts, and all other sex acts may be simulated. He knew that in the sex scenes from 5 seconds to 5 minutes long, that he and his sons would be sitting with erections in the same room. After all, that's better than sitting in the movie theatre with dozens of other boys and men who are aroused at the sex scenes. He knew that his daughters, if sex scenes didn't arouse them, that they were losing their resolve to keep their legs closed and avoid early pregnancies. He knew that there may be a dozen such scenes up to 5 minutes each if it was an erotic thriller. He now knows that he can legally rent an unrated film and show his children graphic penetrations without breaking the law, after all, it' s not NC-17. He knew that if it were a slash flick, he'd be cheering on decapitations, disembowlments, didmemberments, and countless other mutilations, and his children would gain the same sadistic thrills. Do we see what has happened? People are flashing private parts,, are having profane and lewd sex conversations and performing sex acts in front of millions of men, women, and children, all in the name of free speech. Plus, they are raping children's minds by turning them into sadists with gore and rape scenes that are graphic ONLY to titilate. Profanity in the presence of minors is illegal in most areas. Parents DO NOT have good discussions after these movies after being exited over things that are not proper, and with my nephews and nieces, they all grew up to be lawbreaking, violent, and sexually promiscuous. I AM tired of standing alone and being one of the few people I know brave enough to bocott ALL Rated R movies, for there is NO limit to what can be said or portrayed. Nor is there any resource to find out the EXACT quantity of obscene content before it's released. If every professed Christian or good parent would stand up, there really would be no reason to have in between PG and NC-17 rating.. Did you notice that movies edited for public viewing NEVER suffer plot for sake of public decency? If you feel that free speech means things that are illegal, sadism, obscene, and sex offenses in movies (which our founding fathers never meant) then why have those of you who watch such things not INSISTED that it gets rated ONLY for the adult audiences they are made for? It's well known that many producers don't let their children see the movies they make. Children cannot consent to listen to lewd speech, see genitals and sex acts from adults any more than they can consent to molestation. Nor can they consent to having their sensitivitiy raped by sadists. Entertainment gives no excuse for adults raping children in the same way that would be considred child molestation if they did these sexual things in person and not on the screen.

So, I thought I'd share my observations with you on ratings and how Roger Ebert is right about an uniform adult rating.

I'm terribly sorry that your brother-in-law's kids (or yours, I didn't really get it), are going to grow to be degenerate mindless perverted sadomoaschistic psychopaths, but please take your ranting elsewhere, this is not the purpose of this page. Also, despite what you say, there are limits to what a movie can show, legal and otherwise: the NC-17 rating can break any nation-wide released soon-to-be blockbuster into a complete failure (as the article states) and the law, furthermore, can ban a movie or any other creative work if it is considered obscene, although it uses it sparingly, as not everybody would rather swallow broken glass than see a woman's breast.Unmitigated Success 06:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

No limits to what can be said in an R-rated movie? Unlikely - South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut wasn't allowed an R-rating at first due to use of the mf word. --Christhebull 17:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I couldn't follow most of your post (try breaking it up into paragraphs), but there is a resource that tells the "EXACT quantity of obscene content" in every large-scale movie released. Kids In Mind counts the sex, violence and profanity of every movie released, and rates each as well. It even counts the number of times each profane word is used and describes the gore to excruciating detail (e.g. "we see a man's head explode") so parents can gauge whether or not they want to take their kids to the flick. HTH

But aside from that, just don't go to R-rated flicks. Sheesh. Taking away freedoms is not the way to go. — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Two replies to comments in your post...

"Profanity in the presence of minors is illegal in most areas."

If this were really true, it would be illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to attend any movie not rated G. Please do not make up laws to support your arguments. Let them stand (and fall) on their own merits.

"Nor is there any resource to find out the EXACT quantity of obscene content before it's released."

While it is not "EXACT", the website for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' Office for Film and Broadcasting provides pretty in depth reviews (as well as an innovative rating system) to help you in your quest for acceptable movies.

On a side note, Wikipedia is a forum for gaining factual knowledge. Please do not use it as a soapbox. 192.249.47.8 18:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] R rating gets removed

I hope the R rating gets removed one day, because it's evil and I HATE it! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.130.171.59 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Michael Medved on the R rating

About this recent addition:

On the other hand, the R rating also has a negative effect on the box office performance, due to common controversies. [4]

Given that Michael Medved has a known bias towards family-friendlier stuff, I don't know if he is a good source. It seems more likely that R-rated movies make less money because fewer people can see them. tregoweth 01:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

One of the problems with the, if it is accurately quoted, is that there is a much larger percentage of R rated films than any other category. Foreign films, small independent films, cheap horror and "exploitation" films, skin flicks, etc. tend to fall into the R category. The question should be "To what degree does the rating affect the marketability of a film." The industry does its own analysis of this all the time. When it throws in an f-word for no reason to get a PG-13, it is from a deliberate calculation that their targeted audiences are more likely to see their film with that rating. So long as some people think that a PG-13 will signify greater dramatic impact than a PG, or greater breadth of thematic content, or better action scenes or horror scenes or whatever, then the rating of the film will have marketing significance and we can look at the distributor decisions to reach good inferences about what films are actually MORE marketable as R-films, and which are more marketable under another rating. As for Medved, I think his group did that study BEFORE the 2000 Congressional inquiries into the marketing of these things to children. Some reforms did come out of that. It may be part of why the proportion of R films has very recently started to shrink slightly for the first time in decades! Also, though, Medved is a spokesperson and not a researcher. I saw an absurd claim he made once that every film before 1968 was the equivalent of a G rating. Given that such films (including some Shirley Temple classics) were at the very time he said that being re-rated as PG for various reasons (including, let us not forget, the presence of racial stereotyping), the gall of his making such a ridiculous and easily refuted claim should reveal clearly that, although he has raised some good points, his purpose is not to give a fair picture of how things actually are. He's a critic, not a scientist. 136.181.195.29 18:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS

[edit] NC-17 rating "surrendered"

I've heard (and the page mentions a few times) that sometimes NC-17 ratings (or any rating?) are "surrendered" and the movie is then released unrated, presumably because of the fear that the NC-17 is the box-office kiss of death. I'd like the article to have more info on how this works--can an filmmaker/producer/studio just request a rating be surrendered, and if so, what does that mean as far as the MPAA is concerned? After all, on filmratings.com all movies' original ratings are listed, and appended with "Surrendered" if applicable, so if the MPAA still technically says a movie is NC-17, I don't really understand how the restrictions limiting NC-17 marketing don't still apply. And I'd think that the ratings board might get a little miffed (even though the system is voluntary) if directors could declare their ratings inapplicable so easily and think that releasing a film unrated is preferable to releasing it rated. Faceless007 06:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That's why their system can technically be described as "the voluntary movie ratings systems." Read the pamphlet by Jack Valenti at their site. A surrendered rating is, for purposes of the MPAA, treated as if it had not been rated. That is, the NC-17 no longer needs to be attached to the film and its marketing materials. From there, some other agencies (like Blockbuster Video) may choose to do their own boycott, but that is independent of any movie industry policy or requirements. (And Blockbuster even boycotted Woody Allen's "Shadows and Fog" for reasons totally unrelated to the film's PG-13 content, so their choices are far from consistent or defensible!) 136.181.195.29 18:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS

[edit] Request for images

It would be nice if someone found images of the old GP, M, and X ratings boxes to add to the "History" section of this article. I'm not sure where one could find these images, but possibly on old posters of films with those ratings (an IMDb search of ratings classifications would help). In addition, an image of the "This Film Is Not Yet Rated" box would be nice. PBP 23:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I originally placed references to those on the site, based on my research. Old newspapers and movie posters are the best source. If someone can find graphics of old movie posters on the web, it should be possible to fill in images of all those historic categories. This would be especially appropriate because without such documentation, I keep noticing that someone has changed my quotations and distorted the exact wording to something that sometimes I honestly cannot imagine where they dreamed up. Appropriate to find would be the SMA label (next to the MPAA logo) in film posters from 1966 to 1968, the original labels for G, M, R, X (some examples might also be shown of the age adjustments made in some newspapers), the label for GP and the GP* special warning message (the most standard form of that read "Contains Material Not Generally Suited For Pre-Teenagers" but the wording on that was never totally standardized since within a year it was dropped), the original PG rating with "Pre-Teenagers" in the wording, the standardized formatting of the ratings in the early 1970s and revisions to the number of rows used in the text of the R rating, the original PG-13 wording, and as revised in 1985, etc. All it takes is accessing any old newspapers in a library archive. Any big city paper (with big Friday ads) will do. 136.181.195.29 18:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS

[edit] Humor?

The MPAA knows that people only pirate movies rated R!

Why does this belong in an encyclopedia? How does it fit in one anyway? Well, unless you can actually coem up with a good reason to keep this and actually reword it yourself, it'll stay deleted. And please, Sepharious, please add things that belong in this article that should also belong in an encyclopedia. Abby724 17:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

A study of correlation between infringing distribution of films and their ratings would be interesting though. Wikipedia itself can't commission such a study (WP:NOR policy), but has anybody studied whether R movies are pirated more than G movies? --Damian Yerrick (☎) 03:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MPAA serial numbers appearing in end credits of a film

Please see my question on the reference desk: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#MPAA approval numbers. --Mathew5000 09:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find your question in the long list, but the subject sounds like a worthy one. It is also useful because the numbers (they're not actually serial numbers, but "certificate numbers") are applied to every film that was granted the MPAA certificate - that is, authorization to distribute and show it in all of its member theaters. Thus, in the pre-rating days, the most rudimentary film classification could be considered whether or not a film earned a cerificate (or what needed to be removed in order to procure the certificate) - that was then the fundamental topic of study under the self-censorship system of the Hays Code. The certificates start their numbering with the start of the Code in 1930. Unfortunately, the MPAA CARA for some reason states that they have no records of the certificates. It seems absurd, but that's what I was told when I inquired with CARA about pre-ratings information - their office only deals with Nov. 1, 1968 onward. I found some references to libraries (far from where I live) but I eventually also found a website with the goal of documenting all available information about the certificate numbers (connecting the numbers with a film title and year). Many early films have been lost, so the site is not likely to build a complete record using their methods, but it's the best I've seen on the topic to date. The site is at http://members.chello.nl/~a.degreef/Filmnummers.html

136.181.195.29 19:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS.

By the way, I've also not been able to track down comprehensive information about the Green Sheet classifications. My source on those has been old issues of The Hollywood Reporter from the 1960s - the Green Sheets used to be reprinted there. Green Sheets classified only a fraction of available films, though - usually the most widely distributed ones. But someone else may have access to a more complete source than I could find. Hollywood Reporter was my main source for that subject. 136.181.195.29 19:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS

Thanks! My original question on the reference desk was archived here: Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Humanities/2006 July 25#MPAA approval numbers. --Mathew5000 20:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

In brief, it seems weird to me that the certificate number appears in the end credit, but not the actual rating associated with the certificate. Also, why does the certificate number and MPAA logo appear in unrated movies (or at least the unrated version of a movie released on DVD)? --Mathew5000 20:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The certificates seem to have become dissociated from the ratings trailers. The certificates are on the film itself, while the rating trails afterward and is usually removed from pay-cable (and most video) screenings. I have seen some VHS videos retain it after the film, but that's pretty rare. And some videos are notorious for completely messing up what they've placed on their boxes. 136.181.195.29 17:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)MikeS

[edit] NC-17 spells death?

The article mentions that the NC-17 ratings as "box office poison", but beyond the prior association with the X ratings and porn, and a couple of video stores not stocking NC-17 films, it doesn't explain how that came to be. The equivalent British rating of 18, though it's used for mainstream films and (soft) porn, doesn't have a similar effect. --172.214.147.144

I think it came to be because when it was first introduced, it was used for several pretty crappy softporn films (e.g. Showgirls). I don't know why the equiv rating doesn't have the same effect in the UK. It's pretty much assumed, that with such a rating, it's all about sex, and most theaters (a.k.a. cinemas) don't want to be known as sex peddlers. The worst rating a blood-soaked splatter-fest can get in "R", so no matter how violent a movie is, most theaters don't have too many qualms about showing them, because they are never NC-17.

In short, NC-17 = sex, R usually = violence (and/or soft sex). In the US sex is bad, violence is not (perceived as). — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indecency v. Obscenity

The article states, "Attendance at films with strong enough content to merit an NC-17 rating could be restricted by law due to the possibility of being considered obscene." This is slightly inaccurate. Explicit speech can be categorized in one of two ways: obscene or indecent. Obscene speech is completely unprotected, and it reaches a level of offensiveness that is beyond what society will allow. An example of obscene speech would be child-pornography. Child-pornography is "speech" but can (and is) completely banned. The test to determine if speech is obscene is found in the United States Supreme Court decision Miller v. California. Indecent speech, on the other-hand, can be regulated (i.e. no adult-film theaters near a school) but it is still protected and cannot be banned. In short, the article shold say "being considered indecent."

[edit] PC-13 Link

I have removed the link to the Wolfenstein 3-D PC-13 warning screen, as the site does not allow off-site deeplinking. Can someone replace it with a better link? Thanks -- De Zeurkous (zeurkous@lichee.nichten.info), Tue Sep 12 11:06:09 UTC 2006

I'm not sure what you mean. I clicked on the link and it worked just fine. Do you mean they don't like offsite deeplinking? — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Oops, nope, my bad. I actually just copied and pasted the URL into my browser. That works, but is a little too much to expect of our users. So, yeah, what De Zeurkous said. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Quality of the Actual Article in Question

Good coverage of the subject, but not good from the point of view of documentation. Any chance some actual studies could be cited?

[edit] Unusual wording for PG rating of "Jaws"

I distinctly remember the 1975 TV commercials for "Jaws" having the phrase May Be Too Intense For Younger Children as part of its PG rating. Has anyone seen/heard this phrase with any other movie, and does it appear on any of the VCR/DVD packagings of the film? As only a passive fan of the movie, I don't own it and haven't looked. I'm content to watch it when it's on TV.--MarshallStack 06:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)