Category talk:Motorcycles

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[edit] Category:Motorcycles vs. Category:Motorcycling

Has anyone compared these two categories? Which articles and which subcategories are placed in each seems partly arbitrary. I propose either merging the two categories, or restricting the "Motorcycles" category to actual models, brands, and types of motorcycles, and put everything else in "Motorcycling". --Allen 03:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that everything in "motorcycling" should be merged into "motorcycles"--Clawed 06:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
While in the distant future some deeper meaning could be derived from the subtle distinction between the two be bold (as they say) and change it, as IMHO on the scale of the motorcycling article means such a move is in the greater good for the short to medium term ;) Pickle 07:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for these responses. I'll go ahead and declare Category:Motorcycling a redirect to Category:Motorcycles. Then I'll start changing categories in the articles and subcats, though I won't do it tonight. If I understand how this works, robots will come help move the categories, though I don't know how long that takes. --Allen 02:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, that was easier than I thought. I had forgotten how few articles were in that category to begin with. --Allen 03:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Waitaminute, this doesn't make sense and doesn't abide by existing conventions . Category:Motorcycles and Category:Motorcycling are to each other as Category:Cycle types is to Category:Cycling.. or Category:Automobiles is to Category:Auto racing or all the other auto-related activities. We distinguish between the activity and the tools we use while engaging in them. If anything, it needs an additional parents such as Category:Racing sports, Category:Recreation Category:Outdoor recreation, and Category:Individual sports, basically the same ones designated as parents to the Category:Cycling --Hooperbloob 04:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a perfectly reasonable position. Did you read my original post above? One solution I suggested was to move everything that didn't involve types of motorcycles into Category:Motorcycling. (The biggest change would be making Motorcycling, rather than Motorcycles, the parent category of a bunch of subcategories.) But based on the two responses I got, I merged them instead. I don't mind moving everything back, but let's wait to hear some more opinions. If no one else posts here, I'll post something at WP:CFD to make sure we get enough eyeballs for a consensus. --Allen 05:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Allen but it seems to me that Hooperbloob has it right. Category:Motorcycling should be the main category and Category:Motorcycles a subcategory that only includes the bikes themselves and anything related to the manufacture of motorcycles. Everything else should be in Category:Motorcycling or subcategories of that. I think you got it wrong by lumping everything together under Category:Motorcycles. I would revert it and re-categorise all the non bike related articles as appropriate. If you need a hand I will be happy to help. Cheers ww2censor 12:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
No problem. Like I said, that makes as much sense to me as the merging -- the only thing I didn't like was the way it was, with Motorcycles as the parent category and all the activity-related subcats under it. I'll go ahead and revert the changes I made to bring it back to the way it was, but what about recategorizing all the subcats? Do we need to get that approved at WP:CFD, or is consensus here enough? --Allen 16:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how you do that but from what I read on the WP:CFD page what we want to do does not really fit any of the criteria there either. Maybe go ask and admin what's the best approach for the result we would like, or maybe Hooperbloob knows. Cheers ww2censor 20:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and added Category:Motorcycles to Category:Motorcycling. (Seems like a small enough change to just go ahead and do.) I think it might be a good idea to add some verbage to the top of Motorcycles mentioning that it is a sub-cat of Motorcycling. Also, should the article name Motorcycling redirect to Motorcycles? That seems to be in direct conflict with the Motorcycling->Motorcycles category structure. --Pi3832 22:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm happy with the changes - the only small think i would say is that motorcycling isn't just motorcycle racing but also the non competitive side, so the analogy/comparison with automobiles and auto racing is IMHO wrong. Pickle 17:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
For me I still think that Category:Motorcycling should be the main category and Category:Motorcycles a subcategory not the reverse as it is now. Motorcycling really covers all the motorcycle related topics including motorcycles, racing etc. ww2censor 18:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Addition

So I'm a neophyte and can't figure out how to edit the main page. Sorry. "Buell Motorcycle Company" should be added to the list of motorcycle manufacturers; it has a decent article that isn't linked directly here (though Erik Buell is, and maybe shouldn't be).

They are listed in the subcategory motorcycle manufacturers. ww2censor 12:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suzuki GS500

Does anyone know why Suzuki GS500 is showing up on this cat page in addition to the Suzuki Motorcycles cat page? I fiddled some but couldn't figure it out. It shouldn't be on this page. --Pi3832 14:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed sometimes when an article's categories are changed it takes a few minutes for the change to appear on the category page. It probably has to do with server caching. --Brianhe 22:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OK-Supreme

OK-Supreme (motorcycles) does not appear to be on the list...Seasalt 14:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I have added OK-Supreme to List of motorcycle manufacturers but without the (motorcycle) bit as I doubt it will ever be confused with anything else. There are many missing article and some manufacturers from this list. Go for it and start a new article. Here are a few sources you might useful if you don't have your own: [1], [2] and there some more links on 1922 Isle of Man TT too. Cheers ww2censor 14:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category tags -- Manufacturers of X

I noticed that nearly all the UK manufacturers are categorized many times under 'Motorcycles', 'Motorcycling', 'Motorcycle manufacturers' and 'Motorcycle manufacturers of the United Kingdom'. For example see Royal Enfield. Since '...of the United Kingdom' falls under the other categories, I'm planning to remove the other categories. Justification -- "An article should usually not be in both a category and its subcategory", see Categories, lists and series boxes. -- Brianhe 06:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Then it will only appear on the United Kingdom page and not on the manufacturers page. What is the logic of not being able to find a motorcycle manufacturer under that category, and being required to know the country of manufacture to find it? It does not seem very logical, but will follow suit. (Just checked Buell), which is in both USA and manufacturers.) Seasalt 06:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Fixed Buell, now is in US cat only. The whole notion of hierarchical categories would fall apart if everything was rolled up into superior categories -- the number of articles would quickly become unmanageable for all but the most specific categories. -- Brianhe 07:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, now I know, I'll keep that limitation in mind.Seasalt 07:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

More guidelines & justifications are at Wikipedia:Categorization/Categories and subcategories. -- Brianhe 08:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I really agree with the guidelines but it does say that an article should usually not be in both a category and its subcategory, so be it. No many of the motorcycle country categories have many entries now except Britain and US. Other country categories should be created when there are at least five or six that would fit a new subcategory. Until that time they could be loose in the higher category of Category:Motorcycle manufacturers. Most countries have 4 or more, except Denmark (1), Poland and South Korea (2 each) and these hardly need their own subcategory at this stage but they are these so we can leave them for now. I have cleanup some of the unsorted country manufacturers into the appropriate country if one was available. ww2censor 05:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Agree that Denmark was kind of silly, for some reason I thought there were some more there. I thought about creating categories Manufacturers of Asia, Europe, etc. Would this be overkill? -- Brianhe 07:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Continental categories are not really something we should get into it would make another layer. I would just leave it as it is, besides merging or deleting categories is a pain as I know from a recent experience where there were only about 20 articles grouped into 8 subcategories that we eventually got rid of. In the case of motorcycles there seem to be enough to populate the larger countries and if we need more for some off the loose ones they can be made as needed when there are, as I mentioned, more than 4 or 5 from that country. ww2censor 13:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Production versus Racing

Does it make sense to mix racing motorcycles in with production motorcycles? I would suggest a subcategory for racing machines under Motorcycles, or maybe a sub under each manufacturer. JZH

[edit] New sub-categories proposed

The number of sub-categories is getting rather large. I suggest creating two new sub-categories

  1. Motorcycles by brand with various brands under that. Compare to Vehicles and Vehicles by brand
  2. Motorcycles by type with types (e.g. three-wheeled, sportbike, etc.) under that

-- Brianhe 21:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC) / edited 02:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I did this, the categories are Motorcycles by brand and Motorcycle classifications analagous to the automobiles categories Vehicles by brand and Car classifications -- Brianhe 07:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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