Talk:Morphic field

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Contents

[edit] Merge with Morphogenetic field

This article needs to be merged with Morphogenetic field (which means the same). Ben Finn 15:27, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

While some people use Morphogenetic Field and Morphic Field interchangably, some do not, namely Rupert Sheldrake. Additionaly, the terms are cognates. And the distinction in the cognates reflects the distinction in their meaning. A Morphic Field is a Form Field. A Morphogenetic Field is a Form-Generating Field. The Morphic Field is pretty general. It includes the field that sustains the electron as existing as an electron. The Morphogenetic Field guides eggs turning into chicks. The Morphogentic Field is the Field that governs the Generation of Form. Ostensibly, the Morphogenetic Field would not sustain the electron as existing as an electron. Conversely, the Morphic Field would be general enough to guides eggs turning into chicks. The Morphogenetic Field can/should/would/could be thought of as a special kind of Morphic Field.

Regarding the idea of merging this entry with morphogenetic fields, I am definitely against it, since morphic fields are a broader term, and essentially different (not synonimous at all) from the morphogenetic fields, being the subset of morphic fields and concerning only organic forms, while morphic fields relate to both organic and abstract (brain-generated/used) forms. Ndru01 (talk • contribs) 00:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

If you change the text of the article, please explain why... Ndru01 18:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The morphic field/hyperplane of a form contains the actual data relevant for that form.
"Morphic field/hyperplane"? The above constitutes original research. You are making stuff up and putting it in the article. You can't do that. — goethean ॐ 16:05, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
It is similar to the scientifically accepted unified field theory, the substratum of the physical world.
Who says it's similar — you? Unless you have a quotation from a book by Rupert Sheldrake saying so, you can't put it in the article. — goethean ॐ 16:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

That sentence about substratum isn't mine. That was one of the few sentences before I added my text, and I left that sentence too (since I respect other people unlike many others here). I also don't feel that sentence is very clear and necessary, so you can remove it if you like. And ok that one use of '/hyperplane' (under dual expression field/hyperplane) I'll remove. I agree the term shouldn't be used freely in the article like I did. But the comment about Rakovic in brackets shouldn't be problematic. Why not add something that is fairly relevant information, in brackets.Ndru01 16:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Are there any page numbers in your text? — goethean ॐ 16:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

What page numbers? For what? Ndru01 (talk • contribs) 16:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Citing sources. — goethean ॐ 16:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

ok, I included 1 citation that I think is useful. I believe there are no problems with the article now, but agree that it can be always improved some more. Ndru01 17:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Since it appears to be problems with the last 2 paragraphs, I would kindly ask whoever has problems with it to specify what exactly is found so problematic in them. Thank you. Ndru01 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Morphic fields, as a storage of information related to all the forms of this physical universe (both organic and abstract), are the universal database of experience (Dr Dejan Rakovic interprets these fields actually as hyperplanes, and uses a term isomorphism instead of morphic resonance, but the basic concept is almost the same as Rupert Sheldrake's). The morphic field of a form contains the actual data relevant for that form. All organic (living) and abstract (mental, brain-related) forms have their associated morphic fields, and all these forms individually store related data into a certain collective field of a group of similar forms (all sharing certain basic data), which is a concept very similar to classes in object-oriented programming languages. These fields intersect and merge (link horizontally) in countless ways, and are (vertically) holarchically organized. All morphic fields tend to stabilize in some way, during time, after certain number of morphic resonance occured. Inorganic (lifeless) forms have no morphic fields.

Using existing and generating new abstract forms is only possible with a brain. Thoughts are elemental abstract forms (objects, entities). More complex abstract forms are - skills, sciences, languages etc., and abstract forms, althought non-dimensional (shapeless), are energetically real (not 'imaginary'), as material forms are real (telekinesis, moving material objects/forms with thoughts, is a direct proof of that). One's past, a complex abstract form, is a group of abstract/energetic forms (representing thoughts) that are (energetically) similar in some way since they are all generated and/or processed by the same brain, with their collective morphic field known as the Akashic Record, one's default (and 'private') mental morphic field consisting of all the experiences and memories of one mind through its physical lifetime. (Akashic Records, term used in Vedas, are also a subset of this universal database of all the experience of the organic world, the all-connected and perfectly organized morphic fields database).

The problem is that you are simply making things up and putting them in the article. You cannot do that. Akashic records? On what page of what book does Sheldrake discuss Akashic records?
Thoughts are elemental abstract forms
Where does Sheldrake say that?
One's past, a complex abstract form, is a group of abstract/energetic forms (representing thoughts) that are (energetically) similar in some way since they are all generated and/or processed by the same brain, with their collective morphic field known as an Akashic Record, one's default (and 'private') mental morphic field consisting of all the experiences and memories of one mind through its physical lifetime.
This doesn't even make any sense, and has nothing to do with Sheldrake's theory. If you cannot distinguish between Sheldrake's ideas and those of others — including yourself — you should not be contributing to Wikipedia. Everything that you add to this or any article has to be cited. — goethean ॐ 21:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I certainly didn't 'make up' anything. Everything I said is either from Sheldrake's written material, or his interviews and lectures. And the morphic field issue is larger than Sheldrake himself, this topic isn't only exclusively about Sheldrake's word on morphic fields, but the subject of morphic fields itself. On Amazon someone says that Sheldrake didn't mention the Akashic records which is simply untrue. If indeed in none of the books are mentioned, he certainly did mention them several times related to morphic fields (exactly like I presented, as morphic fields of one's past, and I'm sure the descriptive word 'private' was also mentioned in some occasion) either in some interview on lecture, he mentioned them for sure, at least in answering a question about them, since they are related to morphic fields. Just typing in on Google 'Sheldrake Akashic' one can see for himself that it gives 636 hits and 'morphic akashic' 465 hits, so it is obvious that these 2 are in strong relation. And Sheldrake did say that thoughts are the simplest mental forms (or abstract, he did use that word that I'm also certain, not just the word 'mental, and I used the term 'elemental', which might not be the most fortunate), that thought are the basic ones for the more complex abstract/mental forms like skills and languages, explaining learning process in some occasion. That aslo I didn't just make up. But again I cannot be sure where exactly, in some of his texts, or interviews or lectures. It isn't in the "Presence of the Past" (which is from 1988), where there is a word of mental fields of 'habitual activities', behavioural patterns etc., but 'thoughts' as abstract forms probably came later when he moved more towards the field of telepathy where he is now. But if any of the text seems so unbelievable to you or others, why don't you email Sheldrake and verify if any of the written is true or not. Probably there are other relevant things to be added on morphic fields, but my text is certainly not irelevant, and not some 'nonsense'. Ndru01 (talk • contribs)

Page number. Give me a page number where Sheldrake talks about Akashic Records. Otherwise, your text is going to be removed. See WP:Verifiability. — goethean ॐ 14:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, Akashic Records and morphic fields don't concern Sheldrake only. But anyway, Sheldrake DID mention them certainly, related to morphic fields, as being subset of abstract (mental) forms' fields. If you need proof why not verify with Sheldrake himself did he ever said that publicly or not. Not everything can be verified with some page number. Information is presented in many different forms, and source for that particular information was Sheldrake himself too.

Read WP:Verifiability, which is an official policy of Wikipedia, again. You still don't get it. By the way, are you supposed to be using the talk page while you are blocked? — goethean ॐ 17:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Sheldrake DOES mention the Akashic Records in "Presence of the Past" as well (which I didn't notice at first), on page 307 (end of chapter 17)... Ndru01 (talk • contribs) 05:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] pseudoscience

[1]

So anything that Skeptical Inquirer magazine — a distinctly POV source —deems to be pseudoscience is going to be labelled as such in Wikipedia? I guess all religion, spiritual belief, in fact anything other than eliminativist materialism is pseudoscience now. — goethean ॐ 15:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we label pseudoscience as such. "A morphic field [...] consists of patterns that govern the development of forms, structures and arrangements. ". This is an empty phrase and can describe anything and nothing. Show me an experiment (hypothetical is ok, nonsensical is not) that can detect or refute the presence of a "morphic field". Having an extra source like the Skeptical Inquirer' is fine, but not necessary. --Stephan Schulz 16:09, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
If experimental evidence is a requirement for something to be called science, then string theory and its offspring, eg M-theory, are pseudoscience also. Einstein's theory, when first published, would also have been pseudoscience, since it was some years before experimental evidence was adduced for its claims. The only empirical difference I can discern between string theory and morphic resonance is that the former currently has the support of the scientific establishment, while the latter does not. That which the scientific establishment does not support, it labels "pseudoscience". Peter. 2006-08-21. —The preceding not quite unsigned comment was added by 139.92.218.75 (talk • contribs) .
I don't know enough about string theory (as far as I can tell, that is a misnomer, as there are various competing ones). But Einstein's theories (which one?) all came with suggestions about possible experiments. Not all of them could be carried out at the time (for technical limitations), but indeed, the whole of special relativity was designed with Gedankenexperimente at the very core. Morphic field theory fails in this respect.--Stephan Schulz 13:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, we label pseudoscience as such.
You may think so, but what are actually doing is labelling as pseudoscience what you disagree with or what you personally dislike. "Pseudoscience" is not a well-defined phrase; it's an insult, like "cult". Just as no-one believes that their own group is a cult, no-one believes that their own beliefs are pseudoscience. It basically means "those other guys". Sheldrake's theory is ceratinly not an empty phrase; he's written about a thousand pages on the subject. It's possible that this article reflects his work poorly; I don't think that I wrote it. It is certainly in need of improvement. Citing Wikipedia doesn't prove your case any more than citing Skeptical Inquirer does. — goethean ॐ 16:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, volume alone is not an argument. See e.g. Aetheronometry (yes, that link is red...now!). But the morphic field stuff has all the signs of a pseudoscience. It's publications are primarily in non-recognized journals or monographs not undergoing peer-review. The claims are vague and unverifiable. BTW, while the source given points to the SE, it actually refers to the book "L'Imposture Scientifique en Dix Lecons". --Stephan Schulz 16:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Alternative science is NOT 'pseudo'. Pseudo means false, and in this case it is more truth than the official/conventional science. The word 'pseudoscience' is thus completely inapropriate and should be removed. In animal world the existence of morphic fields is even without any doubts accepted as a reality, there are many documented cases of their influence through time on certain species. There are also proofs that information is stored collectively and influencing the humans (eg. the mental field of the skill of riding a bycicle - every new generation of kids learns by average somewhat faster and more easily to ride the bycicle than some previous).Ndru01

If the fields or results are alternative, then I agree. But if the assumptions and methods are different, then it is not science. I repeat my challenge: Design an experiment (hypothetical, if you want, but plausible), that detects or refutes the presence of a "morphic field". If you cannot, it is not science.--Stephan Schulz 18:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Sheldrake does do experiments on his theories, and he does use the scientific method. Here is a list of his papers on morphic resonance. — goethean ॐ 20:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Have you actually looked at that list and the papers? I especially like this one by Steven Rose. If any outcome of your experiment (even one countrary to your prediction!) is taken as support for your theory, you don't to science, you perform legerdemain. I also could not find out if any of the papers actually appeared in a peer-reviewed venue. --Stephan Schulz 21:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

That case might as well been a deliberate set-up (skillfully hidden) that Sheldrake was too naive to fall for. It is known that he has many enemies, for his work is not so welcome by many since it can somewhat shake the grounds of official science and the views it maintains. Ndru01

Are you trying for a tick mark in every box? From the pseudoscience article list of indicators:
  • assertion of claims of a conspiracy on the part of science to suppress their results;
--Stephan Schulz 07:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, this discussion more-or-less started with analizing my text (most of the text in the article is mine, plus it included 2 paragraphs more, but they got removed by force) so it isn't so unusual then to say a word or two on discussions, even if it isn't about the text itself. It was me who said that for the set-up, not Sheldrake himself. I don't believe he claimed that publicly, although it most probably was the case, in real reality. It CAN happen indeed, especially when something is so dangerous for the whole capitalistic system (based on greed and selfishness), like that theory is. The existence of morphic fields points out that our nature and evolution itself is all about sharing and collective effort, and not about 'survival of the fittest', wild competition, greed and selfishness. It is not hard to imagine how the world's centers of power would do anything to suppress someone like Sheldrake. Look back in history what happened with Tesla (today almost forgotten, and in his last years fairly ridiculed, and he enabled everything that we consider modern today). Wilhelm Reich - killed by CIA (after significant progress in orgonomy, ie. when he became too dangerous). Eugene Mallove, killed (only a naive can believe that it wasn't a conspiracy murder), after significant progress in cold fusion... What happens with ZPE (scalar EM) - suppressed by all means. And Sheldrake is one of the true revolutionaries, like Tesla, Reich or Mallove... Ndru01

I rest my case. --Stephan Schulz 11:12, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Bohm

I see the link to Bohm is also removed again (it was at the bottom of the article). Sheldrake explains similarities of his theory of Formative Causation with Bohm's theory of Implicate Order, and some agreed views of the 2 scientists on pages 305-306 of "Presence of the Past". The reason why I put the link to Bohm (with TAS in brackets after his name) is the 'Thought as a System' on his wikipedia entry (since that is what we are concerned the most from that article, regarding morphic fields), plus the important paralel between thought being a (mental/abstract) form (Sheldrake), and thought being a system (Bohm). And since we know that every form is a - system (with some sub-forms as its elements/sub-systems), I'm sure the reasons for displaying the link to Bohm (TAS) are understandable. Ndru01 (talk • contribs) 03:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Totally disputed

I added this tag due to numerous problems with the content. The topic is presented as if it were uncontroversial, when in fact it's considered pseudoscientific. There is absolutely no neutrality to the article, and it's full of weird, uncited statements, such as "It is similar to the scientifically accepted unified field theory, the substratum of the physical world." There are also general quality problems, incuding poor organization and language. And this is just in a stub! If it grew without a clean-up, it would only get worse. Al 17:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's terrible. The article on its father Rupert Sheldrake (a potential redirect target for this article) is probably just as bad, since the intro manages to redefine science and weasels its way out of criticism by saying that he is merely "shunned" by "some" in the scientific establishment. — Dunc|☺ 17:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ouch. No, it's not shunned, it's simply not considered scientific in the first place. It's pseudoscience. I suppose I should go look. Al 18:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It is already tagged with 'pseudoscience'. So whatever that meant to be, that tag is more than enough to point that the subject is somewhat of a 'controversial' nature (and to many 'disputable' for various reasons). If something is badly worded (or 'incorrect english'), the person that can word it better is welcome to do so. But from relevancy aspect, the information in this 'stub' is simply not 'disputable'. The text was already shortened and reviewed recently and agreed on. 209.135.115.132 (talk • contribs) 19:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC) (the Bell Canada GT anon; see also Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Ndru01 and Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Ndru01 (2nd))
Agreed on? Not by me. There are still major problems, even though it's a stub. Let's resolve them! Al 19:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't remove the flag

Discuss in talk page. My edit line was munged. ---CH 19:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First point:

This sentence is problematic:

The theory is similar to the scientifically accepted unified field theory.

First of all, there are no scientifically accepted unified field theories. Second, it is not similar in any meaningful way. Frankly, this looks like a desperate grab for legitimacy by riding the coattails of real science. Al 19:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Alienus:
  1. "There are no scientifically accepted unified field theories". The very first field theory which has become well known, Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism, completed the unification of electricity and magnetism begun by Michael Faraday. I am just saying :-/
  2. "This looks like a desperate grab for legitimacy by riding the coattails of real science." Exactly, that's the point I and others am trying to make. That's why we need to fix this article.
---CH 20:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Follow the link to unified field theory. It doesn't refer to the unification of some fields, but rather to the unification of all.

Ok, let me make a slash at fixing this. Al 20:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. Let me know what you think. Al 21:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

There's been some attempt to soften the tone of the lead paragraph by suggesting that it's not psuedoscience, or that it's only currently and temporarily considered pseudoscience. So far, none of this has been at all supported by reliable sources (or even unreliable sources), and quite frankly, appears to be some combination of original research, wishful thinking and personal bias.

If you think this is a good idea, please make your case here. Do not edit war. Al 20:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Er: Alienus, just to clarify: whom are you addressing when you refer to "some attempt to soften the tone of the lead paragraph by suggesting that it's not psuedoscience"? When you say "do not edit war"? ---CH 21:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Alienus, when you wrote "There's been some attempt to soften the tone of the lead paragraph by suggesting that it's not psuedoscience" were you referring to the recent edit by 209.135.115.121 (talk • contribs)? (If so, I just reverted this edit; see section below.)
Yes, that's correct. I apologize for not using their name, but they don't have a name, and I'm not much good at memorizing essentially random strings of digits. Al 22:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
You wrote "Follow the link to unified field theory. It doesn't refer to the unification of some fields, but rather to the unification of all." That seems an odd thing to say, particularly since the first two paragraphs of Unified field theory make it clear that "unified field theory" is commonly understood to refer to attempts to unify physical interactions, which are treated in conventional physics by classical or quantum fields. Can you clarify what you meant?
Sure. Earlier, someone made mention of theories which unified a pair of forces (such as electromagnetism unifying electricity and magenetism). I pointed out that the unified field theory (UFT) refers to an as-yet unavilable theory that unifies all four forces (including gravity, hence filling in the gap between GR and QM). Nothing about morphic fields has any bearing on this, though, so the sentence mentioning UFT was removed by me. Al 22:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
In future, please try to make sure that your comments are sufficiently specific to avoid this kind of confusion. TIA!---CH 22:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for any confusion I might have unintentionally created. None was intended. Al 22:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, we basically agree, but in future be careful in referring to "the" "unified field theory" because there are zillions of 'em. See for example this review by a well-known expert, Hubert Gōnner. ---CH 05:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further work needed

Does Sheldrake say "morphic fields are defined as the universal database for both organic (living) and abstract (mental) forms"? The term database seems an odd choice to me. Also, someone needs to add a bibliographic citations to the quoted book by Sheldrake. Are there even any published "research" papers on this stuff? The article doesn't make clear how large the implied literature is. Also, I challenge use of "theory". What characteristics make Sheldrake's ideas constitute a "theory"? ---CH 21:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course Sheldrake refers to them as a 'database' many times. That word is not 'odd' at all. Where are your (one's) memories? How can you or anyone remember or learn anything if there is no 'database' where all the info are stored. So, biology does refer to 'database' also, which is perfectly logical. Sheldrake's books 'A New Science of Life' and 'Presence of the Past' are the 2 main books on 'this stuff'. And the use of word 'theory' was not with capital T, so it isn't a problem. Even Sheldrake's biggest critics refer to his stuff (cynically or not) as 'theory'. 209.135.115.121 22:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
No, it's still problematic because a scientific theory is much more than a mere conjecture. It makes specific predictions that can, at least in principle, be tested and falsified. It is not clear that this in any ways applies to Sheldrake's ideas, which is precisely why they're considered psuedoscientific. Al 22:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
As it was discussed here earlier, Sheldrake DID test through numerous experiments his theory, and the results were significantly in his favour. 209.135.115.121 23:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Version by 209.135.115.121

I have reverted the edit by 209.135.115.121 (talk • contribs). Please explain here why you think the change you want to make is justified. ---CH 22:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Because I KNOW on the subject more than any of you here. btw, I was user Ndru01. And it wasn't me who removed the sentences about Unified field theory and 'substratum'. Those sentences were not mine, but I had nothing against them (althought that word substratum was somewhat confusing)... 209.135.115.121 22:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC) (the Bell Canada GT anon, formerly Ndru01 (talk • contribs))
That's not really important. All that matters is what verifiable information you can bring. Your personal knowledge is not verifiable, even if you're Rupert himself. Please see WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR. Thank you.
And, yes, I know who you are, and I'm quite ready to have you blocked again if that's what it takes. Al 22:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
And here you go edit-warring again. I am very disappointed. Al 23:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You are addressing the Bell Canada GT anon, correct? ---CH 23:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Correct. I would have thought that the indentation made that clear. Apologies once again if it wasn't sufficiently clear. Al 00:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It truly was not completely clear to me. Thanks for clearing this up. In future please try to say Bell Canada anon, I disagree with... or whatever just to make sure everyone knows whom you are addressing. I know this is time consuming but in the long run it saves us all effort. TIA---CH 00:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The thing about pseudoscience is that you also don't have any verifiable information at all that you can use that word. If something is not accepted by mainstream science it doesn't declare it as 'pseudoscience' automatically, but as 'alternative science'. The word 'pseudoscience' is used subjectively as free interpretation, without any real factual supports that it is something 'pseudo' (false). It can be eventually tagged at the bottom, but accuracy and factual-evidence-sake you have absolutely NO basis to use that word in the text (actually at the bottom as well). If you say for the subject of morphic fields 'pseudoscience', it is simply - 'Original research' as well.209.135.115.121 23:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC) (the Bell Canada GT anon, formerly Ndru01 (talk • contribs))

Just curious: Bell Canada GT anon, why aren't you using your user account? Can you explain what you mean by saying "I KNOW on the subject more than any of you here"? It seems you want to characterize this as alternative science rather than pseudoscience. Can you explain why you believe that Sheldrake's proposals constitute science? It seems to me that they are indeed pseudoscience. ---CH 23:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Why would Microsoft invite someone who is 'pseudoscientist' to hold lectures at Microsoft Research Centre on telepathy? Can you tell me that, why? If Microsoft thinks Sheldrake is 'pseudo', why the hell invite him and give him credibility? And btw, I don't care where you are all located, so why should you then care where I'm located? 209.135.115.121 00:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC) (the Bell Canada GT anon, formerly Ndru01 (talk • contribs))

That's pretty funny if true. Where can I verify this claim? Who precisely invited Sheldrake? How many lectures were given and where (the Redmond campus?). In any case, to repeat the obvious, Microsoft is not a scientific body and I don't see why anyone would think why an alleged lecture series at Microsoft would add scientific credibility to Sheldrake's claims. ---CH 00:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that Microsoft was a scientific organization. Last I checked, they made the XBox. Al 00:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Do you suggest Microsoft is also something 'pseudo'!? 209.135.115.121 00:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC) (the Bell Canada GT anon, formerly Ndru01 (talk • contribs))

We are "suggesting" that Microsoft, Inc. is a software vendor, not a scientific organization.

Bell Canada, you seem to be avoiding my repeated request that you explain your reasoning rather than edit warring. Could you please back up and address the questions I asked above? TIA ---CH 00:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

But Microsoft is wise enough to know who is pseudo and who is not. Certainly wiser than those few loud shouters that label someone 'pseudo' just for fun. The explanation for my 'reasoning' is -> common benefit of mankind. To put it that way, since you are so persistent. And what is the explanation for your reasoning? I'm really curious to know. Ndru01 209.135.115.121 01:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I was referring to my earlier questions for you on this page. See above and work your way down the page, please. TIA ---CH 01:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you repeat them if they were so important and left unanswered during the course of discussions? 209.135.115.121 01:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC) (the Bell Canada GT anon, formerly Ndru01 (talk • contribs))
Regarding the Microsoft sponsored lecture, if you type on eMule, bitTorrent or some other file-sharing 'sheldrake extended mind' you can easily find the video-file of it. It might be still possible to find the link to the stream on some server through Google (like last year), but the two I found now are for some reason not working, so the file-sharing download is the only option I can suggest.209.135.115.121 10:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC) (the Bell Canada GT anon, formerly Ndru01 (talk • contribs))

[edit] User:Ndru01, aka the Bell Canada GT anon

This user seems to be a repeat offender wrt various policies. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Ndru01 (2nd). ---CH 01:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

what offender? I'm just the most reasonable and most cooperative here...209.135.115.121 01:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we are being trolled. I have reported this user for WP:3RR violation and am considering reporting him for WP:SOCK violation. Note that Ndru01 (talk • contribs) and another suspected sock, 64.187.60.98 (talk • contribs) have already been blocked on several occasions for previous violations of WP:3RR. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Ndru01 and Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Ndru01 (2nd). ---CH 01:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I suggest concentrating on the content of the subject and the quality of presenting. That is the only thing that matters on wikipedia. Regarding violations, administrators are the greatest ones here, exercizing their vanity over ruining the efforts of those editors who do understand the subject that they don't, plus even offending them like I was offended by some at least once. btw, you cannot call someone a 'troll' who is the most productive on the article, and basically the author of it (of all these sentences now here only two are not mine (more exactly one and a half), since the one with unified field theory and substratum is removed, not by me, and that was the third one that was not mine). Troll can only be someone who tends to ruin it like you do with your bad-intention 'pseudo' inserts and removing sentences. 209.135.115.121 06:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC) (the gtcust.grouptelecom.net anon, Bell Canada GroupTelecom, geolocated Toronto)

The anon using IP address 209.135.115.121 (talk • contribs), aka the gtcust.grouptelecom.net anon (Bell Canada GroupTelecom, geolocated Toronto) was blocked for 24 hours yesterday for its violation of WP:3RR, but it just began a new login session with another IP 209.135.108.75 (talk • contribs) (from the same domain) and is back at it again today. This anon is a confessed sockpuppet for Ndru01 (talk • contribs) (see also Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Ndru01 and Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Ndru01 (2nd)). This user has been blocked on previous occasions for disruptive editing of various articles, including this one. Situation deserves monitoring. Note that on top of everything else, I think Ndru01 is probably a troll, which suggests that we should avoid engaging it in "discussion".---CH 06:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... actually, the most recent edit by 209.135.108.75 (talk • contribs) to the article appears to be acceptable, which makes a nice change! I hope this trend continues ... ---CH 23:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no 'trend'. The article was ok for weeks, before some of you touched it with your 'pseudo' insert in the 2nd sentence (the tag pseudoscience was already at the bottom) and removed that sentence about substratum and my sentence about environemental biology. So I had to support that claim on environmental biology better (with listing the 3 names, mentioned in Sheldrake's Presence of the Past in chapter 6), and to make a reasonable compromise on 'pseudo'-alternative thing by mentioning the 'non-accepted by mainstream science' in a neutral way. And this sentence at the end with 'form tuning into its field' was my sentence, and I was just additionally correcting my own sentence (and it was kinda funny that it looked like you don't even allow me to correct myself). There were 2 more paragraphs where this 'collective-field' issue is better explained (see this discussion at the beginning, where they are pasted like they were), but couple of weeks ago Goethean removed them since he thinks it is 'too-OR' and I just gave up at the end. But I think that from those 2 parapraphs something could have been put back, not everythink can be just written off as 'too-OR'. If you read these too paragraphs (starts with "Morphic fields, as a storage of information related to all the forms..." - ends with "....all-connected and perfectly organized morphic fields database"), you can see that from them it is much better understandable that the forms don't all have their individual morphic fields, but similar forms are tuning to the same morphic field.... So, all in all, I wasn't 'trolling', I was just defending (again) my own article (which was already reviewed and shortened) and trying to improve it. Anyway, thanks for the positive comments. Ndru01209.135.108.110 07:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] template: fact

Why was the 'fact' template removed? Do some editors here not need to support their opinions with sources? — goethean ॐ 14:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I think Alienus removed it inserting 'pseudoscience' instead. The tag was to point out that Sheldrake isn't enough distinguished from mainstream science, but now with that sentence in the 1st paragraph it is clearly stated that he is not (presently) accepted by mainstream science. Anyway, that tag as it was, has no purpose now. 209.135.115.121 15:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC) (the gtcust.grouptelecom.net anon, Bell Canada GroupTelecom, geolocated Toronto)

[edit] Wrong place

This page belongs in the paranormal project, not under general science. Put it there, and then you won't be violating POV by calling it pseudoscience without proof that it is.

Martinphi 00:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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