Talk:Montenegro national football team

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[edit] Jevrić

I don't understand the comment on the reversion by User:Philc 0780 of my mention of Jevrić. IMO it's reasonable to list players who would reasonably be expected to be on the first Montenegro team. I wondered what S&M players would be likely to play for the eventual Montenegro team, and since I had to dig for that info I found it reasonable to put it where others could find it. It's speculative, yes, but the "future sporting event" template warns users against speculation, as does common sense and the word "Prospective".

The reversion comment didn't really explain anything -- it implies that the gap of two years is too much, and perhaps it is or perhaps not. The rest of the comment, that S&M will continue on as Serbia, is irrelevant unless there's reason to think that Jevrić, a Montenegrin, will choose to play for Serbia. At any rate, I yield to consensus, but not a consensus of one. I'm putting it back in until consensus deems otherwise. - PhilipR 02:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"Since the Republic of Serbia is the legal successor of Serbia-Montenegro state union, after 2006 World Cup finals in Germany, the existing national team will simply modify its name to Serbia and assume its place in Euro 2008 qualifying where it is drawn in group A." Due to this all S+M players will play for serbia, regardless. Players cannot change national teams once they have made an appearance, or been named in a squad. And since the countries first tournament is in 2010, its reasonable to expect many current players to have moved on anyway, which explains my other point, though the younger ones may remain. Philc TECI 23:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
But I think the FIFA will make an exception here, because the Montenegrin football association didn't exist before; otherwise the then-newly-formed teams of Slovakia, Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia etc. wouldn't have had any good players because they had only been allowed to play for Russia (as the legal successor of the USSR). So those who are of Montenegrin descent and have Montenegrin citizenship will be allowed to play for Montenegro, without regard to their past games for S&M. -- CdaMVvWgS 17:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, while some Ukranian players chose to play for Russia, I see no indication whatsoever that they couldn't have played for Ukraine from day one if they had so chosen. I'm getting tired of User:Philc_0780 acting contrary to consensus to revert something that others obviously find useful; otherwise I'd be the only one who added anything in that section, and I'm not. As I said on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football, I consider further reversions without building consensus to be in bad faith. - PhilipR 05:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't be such an idiot. There is no consensus to act contrary to, up till the last post it was just you. Just because other people added to it, doesn't mean they're right! Unless it was Sepp Blatter I don't really give one how many people contribute ot the section. And I doesn't matter who finds what useful, if it's wrong, it doesn't deserve a place on wikipedia. Also I consider it an incomplete list, unless you can provide a complete list of ever montebgran notable footballer, and cite it, it shouldn't be on the article really now should it. Also I severley doubt wether any footballers who can play for Serbia will choose to play for Montenegro, a much weaker team. You have reverted my edit more times than I have reverted yours, so if my next reversion would be bad faith, you've already acted under bad faith. Think before you speak. Philc TECI 12:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I noticed another user removed the section, and you re-added it, why do you refuse to back down? I think it should be removed as it is pure scepticism, whatever the factual backing behind. Which I would like to add, there is none. WP:NOT a crystal ball, you are making to many assumptions, that fifa will allow these players to move, that they will want to, that the team will allow them, that montenegro wants them, that they will recieve callup, that they will be capped. Due to your lack of reply over the past 5 days, I have assumed you have no intention of reaching a consensus, and feel that there is more than valid reason to remove it. Philc TECI 01:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm more than willing to seek consensus. What does a three-day (not five!) delay have to do with willingness to seek consensus? I've undone your unilateral reversion because I see no evidence it's anything other than your opinion, as against at least three editors including me who've found this section useful enough to contribute to it. I've also referred this case for mediation. If you persist, I guess further reversions will speak for themselves. - PhilipR 23:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Mate, I'm sorry to say, but its only your oppinion that says it, just because three editors contributed doesnt make a difference, i three editors vandalize a page, it doesnt make it valid.
  • There is no proof FIFA will allow them to change teams
  • There is no proof they will want to change teams
  • There is no proof they are even of montenegran nationality
  • There is no proof they will recieve international call up
  • There is no proof they will be capped
Atleast have some evidence they are montenegran!! the section is pure prediction and speculation, and WP:NOT a crystal ball, so the section should be removed in accordance with this. I seriously don't know why you retain that it is a reasonable conribution, when it is so clearly not, now I'm not against it being there, as long as it has atleast one cited source thet is reputable. For gods sake your like a little kid, your only arguing for it, because you added it, if you hadn't, you'd probably admit it was not suitable. I have compiled all of the edits made to that section, none of them indicate any agreement with you, all are formatting and grammer corrections, except one, which just re-wrote the initial, poorly written addition. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], Philc TECI 02:05, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I had a look at the request for mediation it's bloody offensive, not to mention pathetic, your martyring yourself and villifying me, with absolutely minimal reference to that case at hand. Same old argument, 3 people contrubuted with me therefore it is important. Philc TECI 02:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
As for Montenegrin birth, both players' pre-existing Wikipedia articles support their place of birth. If you consider those articles to be poorly-sourced, you should add in the "references needed" template on the players' articles. Your requests for better sourcing haven't fallen on deaf ears and I'm in the process of locating the appropriate FIFA regs (see here, post 8, for a second-hand source) so it would be entirely appropriate to mark it as needing sourcing rather than reverting the whole section. Beyond that I'll let the mediation process run its course. I reaffirm my willingness to yield to consensus, to follow Wikipedia standards, and to avoid dealing with this in an ad hominem manner. Regards, PhilipR 03:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Place of birth doesn't equate to nationality, thats one problem, or do you have some prooft that this is the case, if so fine. The general theme going round is that the people will have a choice, though, like you, all I have is threads to back me up. Also regarding that link, I know all players have a choice of what team they play for, but once they commit thats it, they cant change, unless and excpetion is made. You used the break up of the USSR as an example of a similar case, however, serbia had inherited the previos football federation in this break up, whereas the USSR one was disbanded, and new one reformed, form the article "The USSR national football team was the national football team of the Soviet Union. It ceased to exist on the break up of the Union. The Russian team should not be considered as a continuation of this team". By the way, when I said 5 days and reverted, it's because I miss counted the days. Philc TECI 12:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Place of birth can equate to nationality. There is no reason why Philc should endlessly keep arguing for a cause he knows nothing about. Time to face the facts. There will be a Montenegro football team, and these *are* the possible candidates to play in it. --Dunenewt 14:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me but, I could be sepp blatter for all you know, who says I know nothing about it. There will be a montenegran national team, but these players have already played for S+M, so they will be inherited by serbia, unless proven otherwise. Birth place can define your nationality but noe necesarily, for example Podolski and Klose, the german strikers, were both born in Poland. Basically it is more than evident you are the only one here who has no idea what they are talking about. Philc TECI 18:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
If Germany had during Klose and Podolski's lifetime broken up into separate states, Germany and Poland, those would be very relevant examples. You keep asking for proof, which is entirely fair and valid, but where's your proof that FIFA doesn't honor the player's wishes when a country breaks into more than one constituent country? Cheers, PhilipR 04:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
No, thats not what I meant, Klose and Podolski was an example of players who were born in countries that they're not nationals of in terms of football. Thats why I thought you needed more proof than birth-place, in order to say they were montenegran. Philc TECI 12:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Subtle racism

I removed this rather absurd statement: Most of the club's new recruits will have to be of a foreign race, preferably African, states UEFA. It seems to be a racist response to UEFA's anti-racism efforts.  :: Salvo (talk) 02:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Somebody's joking poorly. I've warned them. Conscious 08:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Mediation time

[edit] Summary

Items agreed upon

  • Listing potential members of the Montenegro team has encyclopedic value.

Disputed items

  • Do FIFA regulations tie Jevrić et al. to Serbia since they played for Serbia and Montenegro?
  • Is there well-established FIFA precedent for this situation?
  • Should inadequately-sourced info be left in the article while waiting to be better sourced?

(Just a first stab at a summary, feel free to update wikishly as needed - PhilipR 17:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Discussion

Hello...welcome to the happy-fun-time mediation section! This is what I would like to do to start this off: I would like both PhilipR and Philc to both list, below this paragraph, what their ideal solution to the situation would be. Pretend both of you, that you have been granted the power by Jimbo to set what YOU want down as law for this article. I want to see both of your proposals and then I can proceed. Please, do not just respond to each other, just tell me what you would ideally WANT for the entry. We all love football, thats why I took this case (FK Viktoria Zizkov supporter). Thanks! TruthCrusader 18:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


Ok, well I don’t know how this process works really, so I’ll just give my wishes, their reasoning, and grounds.
  1. I don’t mind their being a section on prospective players for the Montenegrin football team, but given the enormous scope of potential players (any Montenegrin footballer) I think all should be cited, otherwise they are nothing more than a prediction of the user who added them.
  2. The players that were listed, and that I removed, played for the Serbia and Montenegrin team, since this has been inherited by Serbia, they are all current players of the Serbia national football team, and some are even still listed as current players on the Serbian teams article. Since this is the case, the players are effectively tied to the Serbia-Montenegro team, unless FIFA makes a special exception to their rules.
  3. Despite the fact that the players were born in Montenegro, they have now lived in a played for Serbia (keeping in mind, FIFA recognises Serbia as the successor to Montenegro) for long enough to be recognised as Serbian. And although birth place often gives you a nationality, it cannot be taken to be your nationality by default, as other things effect this.
PhilipR claims that on the grounds that they were born in Montenegro the players are therefore Montenegrin and potential players of Montenegro. This is not true in footballing terms as players often play for countries other than there birth countries.
Given the unusual exceptions that would have to be made by various governing bodies, and that the players nationalities following the split of the countries is not even known. So really some evidence should be provided, including
  1. That FIFA and UEFA will agree to allow the players to move between teams.
  2. That the players in question have following the split a Montenegrin nationality.
  3. That the players will consider moving teams, which is especially unlikely, if they are already getting football at a much higher level with the Serbian team.
I think without some proof of even these basic facts it is wrong to list players, as the pool of notable players that you could list is huge if you don’t have to prove that they’re Montenegrin, can play for Montenegro, or would want to play for Montenegro. You could potentially list anyone
So basically without some proof of these things, it is in fact no more than scepticism and the prediction of the user who added it, that’s why I removed it on the grounds that wikipedia is not a crystal ball, because I cant see how with absolutely zero evidence of any of the many things that have to be proven for it to be reasonable to assume these players will play for Montenegro.
So what I would like is the players who have played for other countries’ national teams removed from the section, or the claims proven, or at least proven possible with regulations etc. Philc TECI 19:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


Thank you for your thoughts! You have made some valid points. Now I await Philip's statement. TruthCrusader 18:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately it's going to be a few days before I can respond. My home was burglarized on Wednesday and my computer stolen. My lack of input over the next few days doesn't mean I've lost interest; it means that I have to ration my limited computer time carefully. Regards, PhilipR 20:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


DAMN! That sucks! I hope it gets settled. Take your time man, I'm sure even Philc will agree with that, come back when you are ready. Good Luck. TruthCrusader 20:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeh, sure, there's no real rush. So whenever you're ready. Is burglarized a real word? Philc TECI 21:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Sure is! It means to have one's home/car/boat/apartment (whatever) robbed. TruthCrusader 10:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Really? strange, I've always heard/used burgled. Philc TECI 17:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, thanks for bearing with me. I'm more or less back to normal now. I originally tried to reply to Philc's comments in order, but I reverted those comments because I didn't answer the question asked. (Good thing I'm not presently in school!) So here goes:
My roadmap for this section of the article would involve:
  1. Someone having the idea that this is a useful section and starting it
  2. Additional people who are aware of other Montenegrin players adding to the list
  3. Pruning Montenegrin-born players out as they declare on-record their intent to not play for Montenegro.
  4. Someone adding documentation about FIFA regs in a continuation case.
  5. Continuous refinement of the heading as needed to express that this is a place for players who really have a documented reason to think they could play for a national team, not just a willy-nilly list of players who happen to be born in M.
  6. Evolution into a real squad list rather than "potential squad list" once Montenegro fields a team.
Item 1 already happened, of course, and 2 is happening. None of it will happen organically (or at least, it will happen much slower) if the section suddenly disappears through reversion.
Also I added a summary of where I think Philc and I agree and where I think we're still working on it. Slap my wrist if summarizing atop the discussion is out of turn for me, but I think it's helpful in navigation what could potentially be a long section on the talk page. Cheers, PhilipR 17:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I dont know if I'm allowed to say here, but the WP:NOT says that "Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation.", which can be used to remove content that cannot be verified, the {{fact}} tags are for things that can be verifired, but haven't, if something cannot be verified it should be removed. Philc TECI 17:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


Yes. FIFA regulations can be verified. Player eligibility can be verified. Player volition, though slightly dodgier, can be verified through interviews, declarations of intent, etc. - PhilipR 22:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I have never participated in wikipedia discussions before but I've looked into this arguement and want to pass on what I know (and hope that it has not yet been stated). Section VII. Article 15 titled "Eligibility to Play for Association Teams" states a few things. Probably most importantly to this arguement is this from section 1: "The Executive Committee shall decide on the conditions of eligibility for any player who assumes a new nationality."

Now any player who has a new nationality imposed on him by a government authority (as is the case for any who previously were eligible for Serbia-Montenegro) would be given the option to request changing their nationality. This rule is in section 3b.

Finally any player who has not yet participated in a match for any senior national team and who is under the age of 21 may request ONLY ONCE to change their nationality. Obviously, this is only allowed if the player in question would technically be eligible for multiple national teams.

The statutes say nothing about a new association joining FIFA in the context of player eligibility. I'm going to do some research on how players moved after the split of both Russia and the USSR to possibly get some idea of how this has worked in the past.

To sum it up. UEFA doesn't decide anything. The Executive Committee will have the final say. Anyone who has not appeared for Serbia before should be allowed to request that they be considered of the nationality of Montenegro if they have reasonable grounds for such a reuqest. Those that have played for Serbia already MAY not have a choice any longer though I highly doubt this. Those that are under 21 and have reasonable ties to Montenegro and have NOT appeared for any full national team, should be able to apply for a change of nationality regardless of FIFA's decision unless the decision specifically states otherwise.

I hope this helps I will try to get more information. You can view the statutes and regulations at FIFA.com click the tab furthest to the right (it's called statutes and regulations I think) then click FIFA Statutes and regulations. It will progress you to a page that will allow you to download the statutes in PDF format. Have a good day guys. - Liioadin

I looked into it a little more and found Igor Kuznetsov. He played for the USSR at the 1990 World Cup. After they split the CIS competed in Euro 1992 and Kuznetsov was a part of that team. He later appeared for the Ukraine (not Russia) and earned 3 caps with them before retiring. There is a Wikipedia article about Kuznetsov. at rsssf.com There are several players with a footnote indicated beside their name stating that they played for the Ukraine and later were allowed to join the Russian associatation (Link provided by rsssf.com - http://www.mindspring.com/~goliath74/UNT.html). That tells me that There may be a little witching back and forth for a while and that any decision that FIFA makes regarding Montenegrin nationality will have quite a grey area.

I expect now that I've seen this that most players will be able to declare for either Serbia or Montenegro once Montenegro is approved. - Liioadin

Sorry, back again... By the way Montenegro has named it's first president Dejan Savećević (http://www.uefa.com/magazine/news/Kind=16/newsId=469287.html).

I also wanted to say this. According to the statutes Montenegro cannot be considered for FULL FIFA membership for 2 years from the date they become FULL members of UEFA (This rule can be found in the article titled "Application for admission" in the FIFA statutes and regulations document). So to clarify, They are provisional members of UEFA as of October 5th 2006. Their full membership to UEFA is "on the agenda for UEFAs next congress in January. They wouldn't be eligible for FULL membership until 2009 if accepted now. They may allow them to participate in the qualifiers for the 2010 World Cup as a provisional member of FIFA knowing that they are expected to gain full membership during the competition. This was the case of New Caledonia who gained full membership in 2004 after having been drawn into their qualifying group for the 2006 campeign.

I hope all of this helps sort out some of the issues you guys have been debating. -- Liioadin

This mediation case is still listed as "open". Is further mediation required or can I close this case? --Ideogram 07:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crystal Ball

Isn't this whole article just one big Crysal Ball? And that is specifically outlawed within Wikipedia. (See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not Wikipedia is not a Crystal Ball}. How can you write a factual article about something that hasn't happened yet? I think this article shoud be held in abayance until something acutally happens, then you can write about it. --Michael Johnson 13:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball

Technincally the team exists, just on paper. This isn't a crystal ball issue because it has been stated by FIFA that there is going to be a Montenegro football team. It doesn't happen overnight. What we are mainly discussing here is the criteria by which any future players will be based on. TruthCrusader 13:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Nethertheless, it seems the speculation about the possible makeup of a possible future team is the cause of the conflict here. Such discussions may be entertaining down at the pub on a Friday night, but are they suitable for an encyclopedia? If all contributors stuck to established facts, I doubt this mediation would be needed. --Michael Johnson 00:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Well we are in the process already. TruthCrusader 07:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Thats the argument, I thought it shouldn't be on the article and removed it, PhilipR contested. Philc TECI 21:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Well we have to be fair and wait for Philip to get his unfortunate situation sorted out and then we can move the debate along. TruthCrusader 23:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
It's no crystal ball issue anymore: UEFA.com stated the following:
The Football Association of Montenegro is a candidate for FIFA and UEFA membership. The FA of Serbia, with Zvezdan Terzić as president, will participate in qualifying for UEFA EURO 2008™ and in all other UEFA national-team competitions without any involvement of Montenegrin players. http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/kind=64/newsId=436210.html
Things should be clear now, no? -- CdaMVvWgS 14:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
What defines the players as montenegrin? Philc TECI 22:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know... what defines you as English? What would you say? Greetings -- CdaMVvWgS 13:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I have been waiting for the UEFA announcement. What defines a Montengrin player? Being born in Montenegro or having the ancestory. So how about the compromise...."players who demonstrate Montenegrin ancestory MAY qualify to play for the National Team". TruthCrusader 22:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Meanwhile, is the moderation process above still moving forward? (I know my situation slowed it down considerably, apologies again for the delay.) Thanks, PhilipR 23:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The matches of Montenegro as a part of Yugoslavia

Should we include the matches that Montenegro played in 1945/1946, when it was not an independent state? I think the fact it was a part of Yugoslavia at the time must be metioned. It's also very wrong to list the game vs. Serbia as the "first international", since it definitely was not international at the time, both teams representing parts of newly formed Yugoslavia. Serbia national team article does not mention the game, and I believethat it is correct. This requires some further explanation.———→Vitriden 22:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok I removed the matches played whilst the team was part of other federations, and as Montenegro was not the successor to yugoslavia or S+M in terms of FIFA and UEFAs decision, while it deserves mention, it does not count as this teams history. Serbia was the successor. Philc TECI 12:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
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