Talk:Moctezuma II

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Contents 1 "Last king" 2 No source 3 Warrior, not scholar 4 Contact with the Spanish, sources 5 Black legend 6 Moctezuma's father 7 Name 8 Cortes leaving to meet Narvaez 9 Date of Moctezuma's death and of La Noche Triste 10 Clean-up tag 11 Azcapotzalco or Tlacopan? 12 Pulled Trivia section from article 13 This article needs some reorganization

[edit] "Last king"

On a page entitled just "Moctezuma," (which I have redirected here) someone had written "Moctezuma was the last Aztec king." Please note that that is both incomplete and false -- there were two Moctezumas, neither of which were "last."

If we're not careful, the term "Wikipedia article" will come to be used to mean "authoritive-sounding nonsense."

In a way Motecuhzoma Xocoyotzin was the last true Mexica king of Tenochtitlan since during his rein, Tenochtitlan was raided by Cortez. Myke 13:04, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No source

I cut the anonamously added "Some historians point out however, that the spaniards, realizing that Moctezuma had lost his influence and rule over his aztec subjects, found him useless and killed him right after the stoning incident." Source? As far as I remember, this isn't how Diaz de Castillo nor Prescott tell it. Wondering simply, Infrogmation 04:49 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

if i remember the original source of this is Gomarra (and confirmed by the florentine codex). This declaration from Gomarra wa the reazon why Castillo wrote "The Real history...".

[edit] Warrior, not scholar

According to the ABC-CLIO world history database, Montezuma was a warrior, not a scholar, which directly contradicts what is said in the article. perhaps this should be changed.

There is no contradiction, all aztec upper classes were warriors. To have the title of Tlatoani, Moctezuma must have been responsible of capturing about a dozen war prissioners. Also as a tlatoani, he continue with the aztec military expansion. But he was more interested in religion. A warrior like his uncle would have not care about the divinity of Cortez. But intead of continue his military acounts he prefered to be the Head of the Calmecac, insted of the Telpochcalli, and live the life of a priest. He did not wanted to be elected tlatoani. . Nanahuatzin

[edit] Contact with the Spanish, sources

You all should really reconsider the portion of the article concerning Spanish contact. The problems with the sources you cite are enormous. Some modern research by those who are not as biased as the authors you've read might do this article some good. It's pretty much been decided in the past 20 years or so that Moctezuma didn't believe Cortés was Quetzalcoatl, and there's no native evidence that Quetzalcoatl was even supposed to return. Report that "the sources say that..." if you want, but don't present what the sources say as if it's fact. That's just lazy.

mmhh decided by whom?... Most of the info here comes from primary sources, like Alva ixtlixochitl, the mexicayotl cronicle, the ramirez codex, Camargo, Sahagun etc. The legend of the return of queztalcoatl, (or more correctly, the return of Ce Acatl Topiltzin Queztalcoatl, great priest of queztalcoatl) is recorded By Sahagun. Is it true that there is a hotly debate on why Moctezuma reacted the way he did, maybe we shoudl expand that... Nanahuatzin 18:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Black legend

The whole paragraph starting from "They gave the Spanish gold flags" and ending with "they crave gold" is clearly an example of black legend. The writer pretend it has been written by an Aztec but in fact it's a fictional extract from Carl Sagan's Cosmos, therefore it's a subjective point of view which should not be included in a serious article.

Sorry , i have never read that book. Original Source Florentine Codex. Book XII, by Bernardino de Sahagun. I used the spanish translation from "The other side of the conquest", by Leon Portilla, the main scholar on nahuatl language. Yes it,s a bit colorful, but I included to show that not al aztecs view spaniards as gods o else... Nanahuatzin 08:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Estoy de acuerdo de con tu explicación, se puede decir lo mismo (que no todos los aztecas consideraban a los españoles como dioses) con otras palabras, pero es menester señalar que lo anterioremente citado podía ofender y ofendía la sensibilidad de un español.

(Attempt at English translation of above comment)

I agree with your explanation. We could say the same thing (that not all Aztecs considered the Spaniards to be gods) using other words, but it is (menester) to note that the earlier text could offend and has offended the sensibility of a Spaniard.

(end translation)

Richard 18:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Entendido el punto. Procurare ser mas cuidadoso, sin embargo, tambien me gustaria comentar que es por esa razon que recurri a citar una fuente primaria, en lugar de solo referme a ella. EL publico en general esta acostumbrado solo a escuchar los testimonios europeos... Nanahuatzin 16:16, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

(Attempt at English translation of above comment)

I get the point. I will be more careful

(translator's note: the previous sentence is a loose translation, my Spanish is not that strong, please correct the translation if you can).

However, I also prefer to comment that it is for this reason that I went back to cite a primary source instead of just referring to it. The general public is used to only hearing the European testimonies (translator's note: i.e. European point of view)

Richard 18:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Please offer English translations for Spanish comments. Piet 09:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok.. Nanahuatzin 20:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moctezuma's father

Moctezuma was Axayácatl's son, not Ahuízotl's. Same goes for Cuitláhuac. Ahuízotl was Cuauhtémoc's father.

[edit] Name

The article claims that Moctezuma is ostensibly the preferred name. I cannot confirm or deny this. I am however quite certain that Montezuma is the more commonly used name, so I propose a change to that title. Relevant Wikipedia guidelines:

• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Quote: Wikipedia is not a place to advocate a title change in order to reflect recent scholarship. The articles themselves reflect recent scholarship but the titles should represent common usage.
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). Quote: If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form. If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works.

Awaiting reactions of course... Piet 09:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Montezuma sounds awfull  !!!!!!! (sorry you ask for my reaction...) I know this is an english enclyclopedia. But in the last years i have seen a trend to try to respect the original names: Sri-lanka, instead of Ceylan, Beijing instead of Pekin. So.. can we try to use Moctezuna, instead of the spaniard version of the name... Specially that even in Spain Montezuma is no longer used, (and not to mention that most mexicans would find montezuma offensive).. Please  :)

Also.. if you look at goggle you will find that most references to "Montezuma" dos not refer the the Aztec Tlatoani, but To Montezuma school, Montezuma county, city of Montezuma, Montezuna Castle, Montezuma Well,Montezuma's Reptiles etc, while Moctezuma would refer specifically to it.... Nanahuatzin 20:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cortes leaving to meet Narvaez

The sentence about Cortes leaving to meet Narvaez does not express the core point that Narvaez had been sent to arrest Cortes. When I have time I will try to fix this. Richard 18:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

It's fixed. I fixed it a few weeks ago but forgot to leave a note here. --Richard 06:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Moctezuma's death and of La Noche Triste

It seems to me hard to reconcile the date of M's death as given in this article (July 1) with the date of La Noche Triste (also July 1). Wasn't the latter some days after the former? Alpheus

right, la "noche triste" was 30 of june, 1520 . Cortez delayed to run out of the city, because he still had the hight priest has hostage, and the aztec wanted to make Cuitlahuac a Tlatoani. The aztec ofered peace in excahnge, but the resume atack as soon as cuitlahuac was made TlatoaniNanahuatzin 06:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It's difficult to have accurate dates here. The Europeans were still using the Julian calendar, which by that time had accumulated at least 10 days of error in comparison to the solar date. That is, the summar solstice for 1520 was probably around June 11th according to Cortes' calendar. Madman 22:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up tag

Fellow editors: I placed a clean-up tag on this article. I believe the following areas should be addressed:

• The conversational tone of large sections of the article.
• Unsupported material.
• Legends and hearsay passed as fact (e.g. Moctezuma looked into a bird's eyes and saw men landing on the coast).
• Better use of white space.
• Better placement or definition of Nahuatl words.
• The date of death of Moctezuma as well as Moctezuma's lineage (as noted elsewhere on this page).
• The Trivia section is out of place and a mess.

My thoughts, Madman 22:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Very much in agreement with you I have begun the clean up. I would suggest cutting the "contact with the spansih part" entirely since this is all treated under Spanish conquest of Mexico.--Maunus 13:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree for the most part but please preserve the "legends and hearsay", attributing them as such. I'm not sure how much of that may have come from Nanahuatzin but the point is that the legends are useful information if presented as such. Part of this comes from the importance of myth and legend in cultures such as the Aztec. And part of it comes from the fact that history is not just about fact but also about interpretation. Knowing what legends are passed on about a person gives us some understanding of how his contemporaries and subsequent generations viewed the person. A person is not just what he does but what others think about what he does.

Also, I have mixed feelings about Maunus's recommendation to cut out the "contact with the spanish" part entirely. I did something similar with the Hernan Cortes article (i.e. I cut out the "conquest of Mexico" part and put it in the Spanish Conquest of Mexico article. Another editor objected saying that I had removed the most important part of Cortes' life. As a compromise, I put a short summary of the Spanish conquest of Mexico article back into the Hernan Cortes article.

On the one hand, we should not replicate too much material between articles. On the other hand, we must not eviscerate the Montezuma II article by taking out the single episode of his life that makes him famous. I trust User:Madman2001 to do the righ thing.

--Richard 23:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It is very dificult so separate the facts and the legend, but most history books in Mexico, include the omens that it is said, happened before the conquest as part of the biography of Moctezuma. They reflect the feelings and fears of the population of Tenochtitlan, and are part of the contradictions of his caracter. Proud to his people, and humble to the spanish. Brave in battle, and fearfull to the gods. All this has result in a hotly debate on his motives. Maybe all this has to moved to a section and leave the known facts apart.... Nanahuatzin

I dont see the Omens relevance for the personality or history of Moteczuma. As argued by James Lockhart in "we people here" the omens are most likely an aztec hindsight addition and has snothing to do with actual history. And everything that is known about the personality of Moteczoma whether being "brave" or "humble" and to whom we have from biased sources that should not be mistaken for real biographic information. Of course it can be included but crtitically please, and stating which sources say what and what might be their reasons to do so. But yes I think there could be a section on the persona of Motecuzoma as he has been depicted in legends and hearsay. --Maunus 12:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the article is taking shape and I move that the cleanup tag be removed. If someone helps me giving a few finishsing touches I think we can get it to GA status within the month.Maunus 14:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to the editors, particularly Maunus, for cleaning up the article. It has moved from awful to good, and I have removed the clean-up tag.

Could I also ask the editors, particularly Maunus, to please check your spelling and links in your articles? As just one example, there were numerous spellings of "Moctezuma" scattered throughout the article (all from one editor). There were also numerous redlinks in the article, red only because of apelling errors (e.g. "Fransican" instead of "Franciscan" and many others). Please check your work before saving. Thanks, Madman 15:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Right you are. Sorry, I will do better checking. Maunus 15:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Azcapotzalco or Tlacopan?

The Aztec Triple Alliance is being described with Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Azcapotzalco, shouldn't it be Tlacopan instead? Even once being subordinated to Azcapotzalco, Tlacopan sided with the other two cities in their conquest over Azcapotzalco. Then, Totoquihuaztli, Tlacopan's ruler, claimed the title of Tepaneca tecuhtli, "Lord of the Tepanecs".
Do you agree on changing it? 201.37.6.195 01:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't checked Aztec Triple Alliance article. Info there matches what I said above. I've already fixed it. 201.37.6.195 04:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pulled Trivia section from article

Pulled this Trivia section from article per Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles. If you feel any line below belongs in the article, please insert it in the proper place.

• Montezuma's Revenge is the colloquial term for any episodes of travelers' diarrhea or other sicknesses contracted by tourists visiting Mexico.
• The Mexico City metro system has a station named Metro Moctezuma in honour of the tlatoani.
• Antonio Vivaldi also wrote an opera called "Motezuma"; it has little to do with the historical character.
• Moctezuma was not allowed to be looked at unless it was a festival. A person that looked at him would receive the death penalty.
• He was so holy that he was carried around everywhere so that his feet would not touch common ground.
• This Emperor Moctezuma may possibly have influenced the semi-divine figure of Montezuma common to the 19th century folklore of native tribes living in Arizona and New Mexico.
• There is a reference to Montezuma in the song Cortez The Killer by Neil Young and Crazy Horse off of the Album Zuma(1975). The verse is as follows: "On the shore lay Montezuma, With his coca leaves and pearls, In his halls he often wandered with the secrets of the world."

This is a perfect illustration of why that guideline should not exist, and the guideline was apparently railroaded in by a select few without the knowledge of most editors... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the guideline, and have long had a mind to remove the trivia section myself. It is wholly non-encyclopedic and of little to no relevance.Maunus 15:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The trivia section has bothered me for some time so I am glad to see it go. I was not aware of the guideline and am glad to have a solid basis for getting rid of trivia sections in other articles.

However, I do think there is value in acknowledging historical legacy and modern perceptions. Montezuma's Revenge deserves some mention since that phrase and the "From the shores of Tripoli to the halls of Montezuma" from the Marine Corps hymn were the two most well known mentions of Montezuma in my generation although admittedly this has probably changed in the younger generation of today.

Similarly, the influence of Moctezuma on the semi-divine figure in folkore of native tribes deserves mention IF it can be sourced to a reliable source.

The rest can probably go.

--Richard 16:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I would agree with you on mentioning Montezuma's Revenge and the Marine Corps hymn. Typically they are in a section entitled Modern legacy or some such. As mentioned above, editors are welcome to incorporate them into the article, just not in a section entitled Trivia which becomes a trash-magnet.

User:Codex Sinaiticus, what parts of this are relevant to an encyclopedia article on Moctezuma? Certainly the Neil Young song and Montezuma's revenga are just plain silly. The Vivaldi sentence is almost self-defeating ("it has little to do with the historical character"). The two tidbits about how special he was sound like legends more than facts. If they belong in the article, they need to be referenced and put into the article itself. Interested in your thoughts, User:Codex Sinaiticus. Thanks, Madman 16:20, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

This new "no trivia" rule that seems to have come out of nowhere, if applied site wide, will radically transform the entire face of wikipedia as it currently exists, into something quite different, and far less enjoyable. I guess there is a minority of editors who decided behinbd closed doors that they wanted a carbon copy of Encyclopedia Britannica, and are now presenting this as a 'fait accomplis' "guideline" because no one knew about it. It feels like a hijacking. If this had been proposed in the open, it would NEVER have received a support from Wikipedia's editors.

If you seriously need "reliable sources" that Montezuma has ever been connected with Motecuzoma, try taking a look at the Montezuma article. The other items are mostly relevant links to other related articles, why are they being suppressed and whom does this benefit??? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Hot issue for you, eh? Madman 17:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. What is going on here with deleting links to related information from the article onder the pretense of a misguided guideline is just plain wrong. I will resist this on any article where I see this being done. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs some reorganization

I haven't ever looked at this article closely. There's a lot of information but, based on just a quick look, the section/subsection organization needs work. I don't have time to work on it today but I figured I'd drop the cleanup tag on it and try to get back to it later.

--Richard 17:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)