Talk:Mirror test
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http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/05-3-01/Science/2.html claims " The "mirror test" was devised in 1970by Dr. Gordon G. Gallup Jr., a professor of psychology at the State University of New York at Albany." however the animal cognition article says "The best known research technique in this area is the mirror test devised by Donald Griffin". I'm not sure which is correct.
- I am pretty certain that Gallup developed the test patrickw 17:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Not that it matters any
...but my dog Pismo knew how to use mirrors to determine when someone was approaching from behind. She was deaf in her later years, and still did it. -- Myria 05:01, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
gallup
[edit] I propose...
that we cover a dog in an odourless solvent, and imprint the dog onto a wall. Then we can see whether the dog recognises its own scent
- how do you know if it recognizes it? But I think it would be cool to find a way to see if dogs are self-aware. I want to believe my dog is. That stupid mirror test discrimnates against dogs!
- Record a dog's bark and play it back?
[edit] Gorilla
If one gorilla (Koko) passes the mirror test, would it not be logical to infer that gorillas in general are self-aware? How many positive mirror tests does it take to classify a species as self-aware? --Bk0 (Talk) 04:34, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
- this sounds reasonable to me. Can you offer a citation for Koko passing the test? patrickw 12:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- Just because I can do multiply 10 digit numbers in my head doesn't mean that all humans can. I don't have any evidence but "Surprisingly, gorillas have not passed the test," from the article seems to indicate that some gorillas have failed? Which would just mean that Koko is a Stephen Hawking or someone like that...?
- You were taught to multiply. Self-awareness is an attribute of an entirely different nature. I don't know that Koko's single instance is enough to pass gorillas in general, but your analogy is not applicable. - Slow Graffiti 06:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dubious
IMHO the mirror test is as much a test of whether the animal in question understands what a mirror is. (I.e. that it is a device that enables one to see oneself.) Which has nothing to do with whether the animal understands what it itself is. Relatedly, why should the animal be expected to recognise itself, if it doesn't already know what it looks like and isn't familiar with how mirrors work? Ben Finn 19:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
- Because an intelegent animal will learn how a mirror works by watching how its reflection changes as it moves.
- -- Jeff 04:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pigeons
I know someone's gonna argue that Pigeons couldn't possibly pass this test. Hereis the proof. I'm as surprised as you are. JeffyP 20:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
- So, you train a pigeon to locate a blue dot in a mirror, then to peck at a blue dot. Aren't you just effectively demonstrating that a pigeon can be taught how to use a mirror to locate a blue dot to peck at? I fail to see how this would demonstrate that the pigeon can recognize that the dot is actually on themselves. As a test for a contrapositive, one would need to design a test where a pigeon is taught to peck at a blue dot on other pigeons, if then presented with a mirror, the bird were to peck at the blue dot reflection in the mirror, and not on itself, then it would be a nullification of the positive test presented above. As I see it, this would demonstrate that the bird simply performs what ever actions it is taught to perform. I would personally expect that to sucessfully pass the mirror test, that an animal/person would have to spontaneously, and without any foretraining, or instruction react to the stimulus on themselves in the mirror. Raise a pigeon around a mirror, thus establishing that it's comfortable with the mirror, then spontaneously present it with a blue dot on itself that it cannot see. If it responds to the image in the mirror, then it fails, and if it responds to the dot on itself, then it passes. --131.107.0.73 23:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Parrots
Parrots (Alex (parrot)) are known to be very intelligent. Do they pass the test ? Perhaps a section with some species that don't pass the test would be interesting.
- I'm equally intrigued as to the test result of cats. - Slow Graffiti 06:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dogs
Whoever these researchers are need their heads examined. My dog was fooled once by the mirror when she was a month old(barking at it and such), probably like any being would be if it had never seen one before. After that first time she watches people in the mirror in relation to herself and will get out of the way if she sees that she is in the way through the mirror. She will also put her ears back and tilt her head when she sees you are about to pet her. Same if you suddenly throw food behind her, she knows right where it is. Same if she sees a mouse. In fact her ability to use the mirror with such ease for observation and targeting is better than mine, which falls in line with what I believe to be better spacial perception by dogs than humans. I think we underestimate the raw intelligence of animals in general. The difference really lies in abstract thought and our language abilities that stem from that. They use dye? Not all animals are going to care about that! My Dog doesn't care when she gets a drastic haircut in the summer! - John 0905, 29 June 2006 (EST)
[edit] Baboons
Baboons are actually one of the few monkey species that can recognize themselves in the mirror. Anyone who has seen a good baboon documentry would know that. One documentry showed the baboon's keen interest with themselves in old thrown away mirrors. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? I can't find an exact article on it but it was in a documentry. Zachorious 08:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
