Talk:Miniature figure (gaming)

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Contents 1 Lead poisoning 2 Perry Twins 3 1listsculpting link 4 Backwards History 5 Concept too narrow? 6 External links list 7 Schleich

[edit] Lead poisoning

I have concerns about the line which read "due to the (unfounded) concerns about the safety of lead" and replaced it with "due to concerns about lead poisoning." I am extremely interested in why the original author said "unfounded" though--what safety measures, if any, do hobbyists take? Is there reason to believe that a good undercoat, a couple of layers of paint, and a sealant provide adequate protection? If some hobbyists believe that, I think it belongs in the article. But this is speculation on my part--I'm not a miniatures hobbyist, and I most definitely am not a doctor or someone else qualified to talk about lead poisoning. Dave Farquhar 14:37, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• If I remember correctly many miniature factory switched from lead to white metal because the New York state banned the use of lead in miniatures - the ban was lifted but the factory didn't switch back to lead (sorry my english it's not very good and it was many year ago)
  • I'd leave it how it was, because it is exactly that purely unfounded concerns with no records of wargamers ever getting lead poisoning. Think that one of the reasons lead was removed is because America has a culture of suing the pants off people at the slightest drop of the hat. Hence being way over the top carefull. The UK manufactures were generally a bit slower to adopt this, but eventually they did to because they would still be exporting to the USA. And just for the record I have been part of the wargaming scence for many years (however yet to become a MD! On the other hand I do come from a science background). Mathmo 12:12, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
    • I'd strongly doubt that there was a change due to real concerns about people's health, rather manufactures where worried about the much more real legal risk they are exposed to in america. Mathmo 12:28, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • I rewrote the paragraph, with citations. (I'm not sure I formatted the legal citation correcly; any lawyers about?). For the record, Dragon's miniatures column followed the New York bill in issues 192, 193, 194, 195, 198, 201, 205, and 210. That should be enough references for anybody. Ral Partha's 1993 catalog also has an editorial about their decision to stop using lead, but I haven't figured out how to cite a catalog. Michael Bauser 03:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perry Twins

I'm concerned about the text reading - "Arguably the best sculptors the wargames industry has ever known." about Alan and Michael Perry. While I myself am a big fan of their sculpting, the statement seems overblown and out of place in this context, and has little to back it up. jaq 15:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd agree, although it did say *arguably*. And their case can most certainly be argued... Mathmo 19:42, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure it says arguably, but who's arguing this? This qualifies as weasel words to avoid. It should be removed. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1listsculpting link

I just noticed that for some reason the link for 1listsculpting was removed. Comment was "rv - link not significant and likely linkspam". I'm not certain why this is since it's a list which is specialised in sculpting the miniatures which are discussed here. As it is, about one third or more of the sculptors listed in this article are a member of that list. I've got the feeling the editor missed this and will return the link. Having just typed the article on sculpting may make the situation clearer. If not, please contact me.

I intend to add an article on sculpting miniatures to wikipedia but will have to wait till after my holidays.

By the way, I'll be seeing the Perry twins in two days. They should find the discussion amusing. :)

Bye, Ming-Hua Kao Moderator 1listsculpting

Ah, it was I who removed the link. I checked it and saw that there were very few members and jumped to the conclusion that it was not significant. The fact that it was one of your earliest edits at Wikipedia and your name is "Minimaker", I assumed that it was self-promotional (also known as vanity at Wikipedia). My mistake! If you would readd it and give it a description that tells the reader why the yahoo group is significant (pretty much what you said above), I think it would be a good addition.

(Incidentally, you can automatically sign your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your comment where you'd like Wikipedia to insert your signature. You can also customise your signature in your user preferences.) — Saxifrage ✎ 23:57, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Anyway, I've put the lnk into the section on sculpting. More relevant over there. I have another id at wikipedia but decided it was better to switch to "minimaker" for articles on miniatures since that nick is more familiar in the industry. Thanks for checking formatting etc. by the way.

minimaker 05:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Backwards History

I'm a roleplayer myself, but I have say: It's incredibly bizarre that this entry's lede only defines miniatures in regards to roleplaying. Gaming-scale miniatures originated in wargaming, and the two hobbies (wargaming and miniature collecting) are still strongly connected. This entry gives such short shrift to wargaming, it's almost roleplaying-chauvinism!

This entry needs some balance, and some better historical context. As it stands now, I'd be embarassed to show this entry to my wargamer friends. Michael Bauser 01:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concept too narrow?

Sooner or later, some attention will need to be given to the growing hobby of collecting miniature figures adapted from anime and manga, a phenomenon that seems to have developed under the influences of both D&D modelling and US-styled comic book "action figures." This entry completely ignores such miniatures, and in fact is presently so wargame-centered that it does not lend itself to any reasonable revision that would be more inclusive. Any suggestions? Bustter 20:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure what you mean. Do you mean the type of miniature figures as discussed in the article? That is, figures primarilly designed as gaming figures (though nowadays many are more designed for painting collectors)? Or do you mean those Manga/Anime plastic painted small figures specifically made for collecting? Or the larger collector figures and garage kits?

If you mean the second I'd say it's best to create a separate page since it's a totally different type of figure in purpose and creation from the figures described here. You can always link to this page though.

If you mean Anime/Manga styled miniature gaming figures like the ranges by ground zero games, shadow forge and Anima, then it will depend on what direction this article should go into. Right now it's fairly generic. I think it could be a good idea to include a chapter that gives examples of different styles and genres available so people know there is a lot more than just historical, high fantasy and fighting SF. There is prehistoric (Jeff Valent), comic (Team Frog), anthropomorphic (Iron claw), Wild West (Black scorpion), steampunk (Wyrd), gangster (Dixon), Cyberpunk (Copplestone), etc. If you want a more extensive treatise per genre I'd say it's best to create a separate article and link it to this one.

minimaker 18:33, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links list

The external links section is getting out-of-hand. Note that Wikipedia isn't a links directory and that the external links policy guides us to select a few high-quality links instead of many. The manufacturers in particular need to go—if any of them are notable, they ought to have their own article that can be linked from the "See also" section, and the rest aren't needed (per "not a links directory").

Thoughts? Am I completely off-base? — Saxifrage ✎ 20:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That list is far from complete. If I can make a suggestion. How about replacing it with a link to this page: http://theminiaturespage.com/man/ It's the manufacturer's list of the miniatures page and a much more extensive list than what you can put up here.

minimaker 18:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That page looks pretty good: low advertising, high content, no obvious biases (someone want to double-check me here?), and provides something Wikipedia can't: a links directory. Unless problems with that site come to light, when I do the links cleanup I'll include that. Thanks. — Saxifrage ✎ 15:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if it counts but in my experience that index is not biased. The goal of the site is to supply information on miniatures and is not linked to companies etc.

minimaker 18:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Schleich

I just saw that this company is listed in the article. Personally I don't think it fits the scope of the article since those figures are not made as gaming miniatures even though they can be used for it. My suggestion would be to remove the link from the main body of the article and move it to related articles. Your thoughts? minimaker 18:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the scope of the term "miniature figure" is probably slightly larger than just those used for gaming. Right now the article has an undue focus on their use in gaming, which should probably be addressed at some point. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand that. Still, I believe that the scope is what the writer intended. The title is generic since there is no specific term for these figures ("miniatures" is most common). So the writer had no choice but to use a generic term and define the scope in the introduction.

I would suggest against making the article more general by introducing other figures as:

- Several types are discussed elsewhere on Wikipedia (tin soldiers, model figures).

- Each type has a different public/scene, purpose, production, materials, etc.*

- This article has barely scratched the surface of the subject.**

My suggestion would be to keep this as a specialised article and to create a level above it as an index to all the figure articles on wikipedia. Still, perhaps the title can be made clearer by adding a remark between brackets like "(wargaming figures, miniatures)". I did that for the Dutch page since the Dutch name is even more generic.

Anyway, these are my thoughts on this.

• For example:

-Gaming miniatures generalised: mostly age 14+, wargamers, painters and collectors; gaming, painting, static display; mostly small to medium companies with low tech production methods, low melt tin based metals and polyurethane, painting and assembly required; medium to high price; specialist outlets; violent subjects, small size).

-Toy figures (mostly age 14 and below, kids with general intrests, playing, durable safe plastics, pre-painted and assembled; medium to high tech production, medium to high price, toy stores; any subject; any size but big enough for safety).

-Collector figures (mostly adults; both genders; static figures; medium to high tech production; pewter, vinyl and other plastics; often pre-painted or finished; any subject; high price; specialist outlets; any subject; large size).

Of course there is some mixing as gaming dragons are cast in pewter and polised for the collectors market and toy figures get drafted for gaming. Still, I feel each group has enough specific characteristics to warrant separate articles.

• • Much more can be told about it and having more than one type of figure here could result in an article that is unwieldy.

minimaker 23:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it would need a change of name. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but at Wikipedia the name dictates the subject of the article rather than the article dictating the name. So, to make sure this article stays focused on gaming minis, we should move it to something like Miniature figure (gaming) or Miniature figure (games) and make Miniature figure a disambiguation page (essentially a navigation index). I think the -ing form is probably the best, and (wargaming) wouldn't work because not all games that use minis are wargames, just most of them are. What do you think? — Saxifrage ✎ 02:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I think [Miniature figure (gaming miniatures)] will work best. I added miniatures since this is the common term used for these figures and people will use it in searches. Of course, even with this the scope will have to be explained in the introduction to exclude items like abstract gaming pieces (think monopoly) and include large size models (robots, vehicles - not strictly figures) and non-scaled/scaled up figures (fairy meat is 1:1 - faires just tend to be small :) ). Anyway, I'd be ok with this namechange and a generic navigation index.minimaker 08:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the second "miniatures" in the brackets should be avoided: the guidelines on article naming exhort us to be as brief as necessary within the brackets, only adding as much as is necessary to distinguish the article. If people are searching for "gaming miniatures", then the way to make sure they get here is to create a redirect (which I'll do right now!). — Saxifrage ✎ 05:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok to me. So, will you be doing all this rebuilding? Not sure if I understood that right.minimaker 22:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll take care of it right now. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)