Talk:Mini-mental state examination

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hey, nice surprise. nice article: should i put in some stuff i know from doing these tests? also working on a medical decision making wiki articleCulturejam

[edit] copyright issues

We've received a complaint of copyright violation from the publishers of the MMSE on m:OTRS. Please be careful not to provide so much detail in this article that we basically replicate the test! Thanks, FreplySpang 18:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The publishers of the MMSE? This appeared in a medical journal several decades ago and (?illegal) sheets circulate in all hospitals. The version you removed was written originally by me based on other online sources. It does follow the 30 questions, but that's the whole point isn't it? JFW | T@lk 22:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

JFW wrote:

The publishers of the MMSE? This appeared in a medical journal several decades ago and (?illegal) sheets circulate in all hospitals.

I vaguely remember running into this sort of thing once before (when the med students here wanted to publish a small handbook) and I remember thinking it is a load of crap-- not that it isn't copyrighted and not that the publisher doesn't have rights, but that the medical profession standardizes on something like this and lets copyright get into the way of information sharing (which is essential for high quality care). In someways this reminds me of the gif patent. This sort of thing is why I think we need more open access journals.[1] Also, I think it is an argument for turning back the clock on copyright-- it used to be 20 years duration. Anyhoo-- that's my rant.

The MMSE's wording is copyrighted-- but the content of the MMSE isn't; I think JFW's version was alright-- and likely legal but IANAL. FreplySpang what is the text of the complaint? Can you link to it? Nephron  T|C 00:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting me to this conversation, Nephron, and providing the link to the discussion of its copyright [2] . No, I cannot link to the text of the complaint. It was not a formal "cease and desist" but a polite informal request. Whether or not you feel that copyright is a good thing for tests, Wikipedia still has to comply with it, even if every hospital out there doesn't. (Because we are a prominent website, our violations are far more visible.) I would strongly prefer to keep the description in a summarized version, rather than an itemized list of questions with point scores. Personally, I think it is a more readable article for a lay audience anyway. (There is probably room for expansion beyond the 1-sentence summary I put in!) I see no problem with describing the test, its history, its usage, and the controversy over its copyright status. But giving enough detail that someone could administer the test goes against the spirit of our copyright policy, and the principle that Wikipedia is not a how-to guide. FreplySpang 18:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand the importance of following copyright law. If you had the impression I was suggesting that Wikipedia should violate the copyright you misunderstood me. Any case, I added a section about the copyright enforcement. As for Wikipedia is not a how-to guide - I think including the full test would have been appropriate (if it were NOT a copyright violation). Presenting the actual test is a good way of explaining it (as is done in the Abbreviated mental test score article) IMHO as (1) the test is short (2) the relative difficulty of the questions can be assessed more easily. Nephron  T|C 06:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Psychometric issues

It's interesting to see how much work was put into the copyright section, with the article still lacking the most important aspect: a psychometric and literature critique. I'll see how much I can put in, but I'm not overly familiar with the test (hence my visiting the article). dr.alf 04:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)