Talk:Mikhail Khodorkovsky

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Contents 1 Jewish Russian 2 Spam Alert 3 Alleged beatings 4 neutrality

[edit] Jewish Russian

Jewish, Christian, or Muslim doesn't matter what ever belief Mr Mikhail Khodorkovsky practices or whatever ethinicity he belongs to; first and foremost thing is he is a human! This helpless person; is a victim of a powerful system and is being crushed slowly and systematically. I'm sure he should have influence and contacts with outside world. They should lobby and get him out. I wish if I was an influencial person and in a position to help him.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abakhi (talk • contribs).

Well it may be one of the reason for his presecution; please bare in mind; it is not the only reason; look at the wider picture. I'm sure there are his well wishers in and around russia; who could do something to get him out by negotiating with the Russian authority.

Yes, but Khodorkovsky's ethnicity is considered by some to be an important factor in his persecution. Hence, it's important. --Chodorkovskiy ^(talk) 16:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed this phrase from the header. First, I don't consider it appropriate to mention ethnicity in the header, and second www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/053105NYTimes_Khod.shtml this site states Khodorkovsky had mentioned privately to Jewish leaders on several occasions that he did not consider himself Jewish. Arniep 23:36, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

--Bobby Fisher doesn't consider himself Jewish either, doesn't mean he's not--

I suggest Khodorkovsky's ethnicity be made into a separate section. --Chodorkovskiy 09:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, it is not a matter of personal opinion if you are a jew or not, it is genetics. Because of your parentage you are bound to their national plight. Khodorkovskij was targeted in no small part because of the lenght of his nose, since Russia is extremely antisemitic, the infamous "Zion Protocol" book, from which Adolf learned, was fabricated by the tzarist secret service. Then consider the "doctors trial" around the time of Stalin's death or the massive internation of the soviet jewry in the siberian "Birobidjan" territory in the 1960-70s.

Mr. Khod could have earned 25000 billion rubles via trickery, make dirty jokes about Putin on the stage daily, etc. and still he wouldn't have been prosecuted at all as a blood-russian. It was his jewry that ultimately made him a target. Therefore it should be featured prominently in the article head, so everbody can read we have a victim of racism here!!!!!

Remember Putin spent lotsa time in Germany as a KGB agent and learned ample antisemitic rhetoric. Russia keeps it population dumb with huge amounts of vodka and anti-jewish propaganda, so they do not revolt against tyranny.

I hate Israel because of what they do to the palestinian people, but if Mossad had the guts to send in an airborne commando and get Mr. Khod out of the Gulag my opinion of them would be vastly enhanced. It would be 10x simpler than Entebbe rescue, for example. 213.178.107.18 09:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating. Regardless of the context though, I agree: Khodorkovsy's persecution is blamed by some on him being Jewish. That is definetly worth mentioning. --Chodorkovskiy 18:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Those accusations of anti-semitism are indeed fascinating, given the fact that the oligarch who "replaced" Khodorovskij, Abramovich, is also Jewish (some say even more so). No reason to censor his ethnic background, but neither is there any reason why it should be in the header. Nothing suggests that it played an especially important role in his life. -- Heptor _talk 23:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Please, please, please let's not get into politics! Especially seeing the level of awareness here... No, it doesn't have to be in the header, but it does have to be in the article. See my original suggestion: an Ethnicity section, where all this Jewishness and claims of anti-Semitic persecution would go.--Chodorkovskiy 06:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Surely, if any notable person or organization claimed that the persecution was motivated by anti-semitism, it should be mentioned in the article. But it would also be reasonable to mention that many other oligarchs are also Jewish. -- Heptor _talk 23:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Considering Khodorkovsky has said he does not consider himself Jewish there does not need to be a "special section" or any mentioning that other oligarchs may have Jewish parents, grandparents or whatever. Arniep 23:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

How about placing the claims of anti-Semitism in the "Viewpoint of supporters" section and the other oligarchs' Jewish descent in the "Viewpoint of critics" one? Hey, I know we can't please everyone, but Wikipedia should contain all the information on the matter - and we all know the above mentioned claims are out there. --Chodorkovskiy 09:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good, if you have a good source claiming that some or all supporters of Khodorovskij believe that persecution has anti-semitic grounds, include it. Of course, I presume you understand that the those supporters or supporter have to be notable somehow, not just some yahoo screaming from top of a building. Otherwise, anyone can call himself supporter of someone, and have his opinion mentioned here. To give an example: "Suporters of George W Bush claim that the real reason why the Democrats are mocking the President is that he put two black persons in his Goverment." -- Heptor _talk 20:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, here's what I came up with (taken from www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=324066&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y Haaretz.com):

"Aleksandr Osovtsov, former vice president of the Jewish Congress in Russia says the anti-Semitism in the affair is clear. The same team from the Prosecutor General's Office that in its day forced Gusinsky to leave Russia is active now and by chance or not, Gusinsky was one of the financial supporters of the Jewish Congress and Khodorkovsky is also among its supporters."

As for the rest of the oligarchs being Jewish, I could only find yahoos screaming about it... Sorry, maybe you'll have better luck. --Chodorkovskiy 07:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say all oligarchs are Jewish, I would like to meet those yahoos claiming that! But Roman Abramovich is, read the article about him (or take the hint, "Abram"ovich :p ). As far as I know he largely took over the political influence of Khodorovskij, while Putin also made his point on who is really in charge. So I hope you understand why I am so reluctant about claims that his persecution was anti-semitcially motivated. But, this former vice persident of Jewish congress seems to have insinuated otherwise, so per Wikipedia policy this is relevant material. -- Heptor _talk 03:43, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, many Russian oligarchs are Jewish. Yes, it can be verified using Wikipedia. However, doing so qualifies as original research. I know what you meant. The thing is, I couldn't find a serious source saying what you just said. I understand that your claim is also legitimate, I just couldn't find a source for it. We find that - we can start adding the whole thing to the article.--Chodorkovskiy 07:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems noone before you actually found it necessary to ask for sources that Roman Abramovich is a jew, but here is one source: www.israelnewsagency.com/jewisrael194800.html. On the bottom of the page, there is a nice list of prominent jews. -- Heptor _talk 13:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Dude, calm down - I'm not arguing with you about Khodorkovsky or Abramovitch. It's about the article having credibility. This is what I had in mind:

"Some believe Khodorkovsky's persecution is motivated by anti-Semitism (Khodorkovsky is Jewish), and that it is only one of many steps to clearing Russian economy from Jews (starting with Gusinskiy and Berezovsky). Others point out that a large number of Jewish oligarchs are still doing very well in Russia.

We already found "some". Now we need the "others". --Chodorkovskiy 14:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I am calm; you really need to find those "others", or evidence that such opinion is held by a "significant minority", read Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight -- Heptor _talk 18:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I sounded condescending. Anyway... I though you wanted the "lots of Jewish oligarchs" part. I really don't know just how popular that POV is. All my relevant google search came up with were the National Vanguard ("Russia's Jewish power baron under siege") and the Islamic Radio ("Russia is ready to smash Zionist state"). So I say again: if you want the counter-arguments to claims of anti-Semitism presented - please provide a source. If not, we can still say that this belief is not shared by the official leadership of Russia's two major Jewish organizations (www.jig.ru/peredovica/002.html source):

"Some believe Khodorkovsky's persecution is motivated by anti-Semitism (Khodorkovsky is Jewish, although he does not follow Judaism), and that it is only one of many steps to clearing Russian economy from Jews, with Gusinskiy and Berezovsky being the previous victims of this policy. This view is not shared by the heads of the Federation of Russian Jews and the Russian Jewish Congress, who both defended Khodorkovsky's arrest."

In fact, that's what I think should be added to the "viewpoint of supporters" section. Feel free to present a version of your own, or make suggestions about this one.

Ah, no, I didn't want to put up that Russia is really ruled by Jews or something, that was a bad misunderstanding. RadioIslam is by the way a known Islamistic hatred propaganda channel, EU even have them on some list over racist media. That Putin made Abramovich Governer of Chukotka is a fact, sources are readily available.

Mentioning that the view is not shared by the heads of the Federation of Russian Jews constitutes enough ballance to that opinion.

The question is: is it a viewpoint held by a significant minority? This is actually the treshold for adding it into Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight. Can you name a few prominent adherents? Did Khodorovskij himself claim that? Really, this is nothing personal, if there is a significant number of people who believe that Khodorovskij's persecution was influenced by anti-semitism, this should be mentioned. -- Heptor _talk 20:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=407&issue_id=3218&article_id=2369187 here's something interesting:

"Khodorkovsky's ethnic background (his father is Jewish) has not been discussed in the public press, although the ADL found that it featured in about half the Russian Internet chat rooms devoted to Yukos."

Is that significant? Seriously, is it?--Chodorkovskiy 12:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it is, quite strange that his ethnical background has not been discussed in public press. When Jo Benkow had position as the speaker of parliarment in Norway, his Jewish background was duely mentioned in Norwegian press. All the racist hatred groups have went wild on this naturally, claiming that this was the next step in the Jewish takeover plan or something similar.

Heptor _talk 13:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I see. Guess it's inevitable in this day and age. Alright then. So what do you think of the final version?

"Some believe Khodorkovsky's persecution is motivated by anti-Semitism (his father is Jewish), and that it is only one of many steps to clearing Russian economy from Jews. Gusinskiy and Berezovsky are thought to be previous victims of this alleged policy. This view is not shared by the heads of the Federation of Russian Jews and the Russian Jewish Congress, who both defended Khodorkovsky's arrest." --Chodorkovskiy 18:34, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

What about this:

"Because Khodorkovsky's father is Jewish, some concerns have been raised that his persecution is motivated by anti-Semitism, and that it is only one of many steps to clearing Russian economy from Jews. This concern is not shared by the heads of the Federation of Russian Jews and the Russian Jewish Congress, who both defended Khodorkovsky's arrest. Gusinskiy and Berezovsky, who too have Jewish roots, have also been persecuted. Other Russian Jewish oligarchs have not been persecuted; Roman Abramovich was appointed by Vladimir Putin for the second term as Governer of Chukotka. Abramovich was elected Governer of Chukotka in 1999, but suggested that he would not run for the second term. However, when the Russian Constitution was changed so that Governers were appointed directly by the President, he was put in the office never the less."

This I believe doesn't say anything not supported by sources. -- Heptor _talk 20:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Strike the "However" from the last sentence, put the phrase about Gusinsky and Berezovsky before the one describing the Jewish organizations' reaction, and we have a new paragraph. Also, it's pretty big and presents both sides evenly, so it doesn't really qualify as "viewpoint of supporters". You sure you don't want to make it into some sort of an "alleged anti-Semitic persecution" section? Either way, go ahead and put it in the article. Nice working with you. --Chodorkovskiy 20:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I do see that anti-semitism was actually alleged by anyone; Aleksandr Osovtsov isformer, and even vice, which means he doesn't speak on behalf of the Jewish Congress. And I agree, this is not a viewpoint of supporters any more. So, I understand we have following paragraph:

"Because Khodorkovsky's father is Jewish, some concerns have been raised that his persecution is motivated by anti-Semitism, and that it is only one of many steps to clearing Russian economy from Jews. Gusinskiy and Berezovsky, who too have Jewish roots, have also been persecuted. This concern is not shared by the heads of the Federation of Russian Jews and the Russian Jewish Congress, who both defended Khodorkovsky's arrest. Other Russian Jewish oligarchs have not been persecuted; Roman Abramovich was appointed by Vladimir Putin for the second term as Governer of Chukotka. Abramovich was elected Governer of Chukotka in 1999, but suggested that he would not run for the second term. When the Russian Constitution was changed so that Governers were appointed directly by the President, he was put in the office never the less."

Good :)

Heptor _talk 21:28, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

In case you're waiting to see if I have any objections - no. As far as I can tell, it's flawless. I think it belongs between the "impact of arrest" and "viewpoint of supporters" sections. "Alleged anti-Semitism" maybe? Like I said, you can put it in the article. --Chodorkovskiy 19:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Nah, I waited because I'm lazy, and hoped you'd do it :) I placed it in the "impact of arrest" section.-- Heptor _talk 22:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I decided to let you do the editing because you wrote the final version. I kind of saw it as a privilege, not a choir. Regardless, the article is much better now! --Chodorkovskiy 10:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It might be noteworthy that Khodorovsky is only half Jewish, and as far as traditional Judaism is concerned--the wrong half...His father....shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere.... --Shigaon

[edit] Spam Alert

I have just received an email referencing this article; emails of this nature are associated with fraud.

---

Dear friend,

I am Mr. Alexander Gedike a personal treasurer to Mikhail Khodorkovsky the Richest man in Russia and owner of the following companies: Chairman/CEO: YUKOS OIL (Russian's Largest Oil Company), Chairman/CEO: Menatep SBP Bank (A well reputable financial institution with its Branches all over the world).

SOURCE OF FUNDS:

I have a profiling amount in an excess of US$35,000,000 which I seek your Partnership in accommodating for me. You will be rewarded with 10% of the total sum for your partnership. Can you be my partner on this?

INTRODUCTION OF MYSELF:

As a personal treasurer to him, authority was handed over to me to transfer some money to an American oil merchant for his last oil deal with my boss Mikhail Khodorkovsky.

Already the funds have left the shore of Russia to a European private Bank where the final crediting is expected to be carried out. While I was on the process, My Boss got arrested for his Involvement in politics by financing the leading and opposing political parties (the Union of Right Forces, Led by Boris Nemtsov, and Yabloko, a liberal/social democratic party Led by Gregor Yavlinsky) which poses a treat to President Vladimir Putin's Second Tenure as Russian president.

You can catch more of the story on this website:

newsfromrussia.com/main/2003/11/13/51215.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky

YOUR ROLE:

All I need from you is to stand as the beneficiary of the above quoted Sum and I will re-profile the funds with your name, which will enable the European bank transfer the sum to you with the aid of a Security firm in London. The transaction has to be concluded before Mikhail Khodorkovsky is out on bail. As Soon as I confirm your readiness to conclude the transaction with me, I will provide you with the details.

Please respond to my private email: alex771gedike@walla.com Thank you very much

Regards

Alexander Gedike (Mr.)

--Phil 15:30, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

So? Wikipedia seems to be popular in Nigeria, which is great. No reason for pasting it here though.--84.188.161.247 10:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

So that people who are directed to this article will know it's a scam (and yes, a few people are still fooled or the scammers wouldn't still be doing it). In fact, I think it would be a good idea to put a message in the main article about it.

Color me unenthusiastic. This sort of thing is not really our responsibility. --Trovatore 19:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Nigerian scam is continues using Khodorkovsky's name and his famous oil millions, I think it makes him popular in some way as phishing fraught person. We should note it in some way or another. --SecVortex 19:07, 5 Oct 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged beatings

MarcMontoni, what is the source for your edit claiming that Khodorkovsky was repeatedly beaten by FSB officers upon arrest? Really Spooky 00:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] neutrality

some of this article seems to use what can only be described as prejudicial language...reads a bit more like an editorial than an enyclopedia article. At least a few phrases do. Like the bit about favorable media, etc.Novium 21:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)