Talk:Midwestern United States

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is part of a WikiProject.
For optional guidelines on contributing see WikiProject U.S. regions

Contents 1 Other 2 "Midwest" will always be somewhat vague 2.1 Nice revised map - but... 2.2 "Midwest" and "Heartland" used synonymously? 3 Disamibiging page 4 Dispute? 5 College listings 6 Walter Mondale 7 Colours and appearance 8 majority of the midwest? 9 size information 10 THE MIDWEST IS IN THE FREAKING EAST, NOT MIDDLE!! 11 Rust Belt 12 Mideast 13 Defining regions by highway signs 14 traficant 15 Interesting facts 16 NE Ohio 17 Military recruits by state 18 Linguistic Influence 19 Border states 20 Kentucky & WEst Virginia--zero evidence 21 Edits of article on the Midwestern United States 22 Other regional maps

[edit] Other

Can anyone explain to me where the fact about church attendance came from?

"In fact, religious attendance is lowest in the United States in the Industrialized Midwest and in the Southeast, and highest in coastal cities like Boston, New York, and Los Angeles" I really think if you are going to quote statistics like this you should include a source.

I deleted the section: Southern areas of Missouri with more affinity to the American South may also not consider themselves Midwestern.

As I am unsure what the writer is referring to unless he is referring to some rural areas. Even there, I do not think that the majority thinks of itself as southern. At least that was my experience growing up in and around Springfield, Missouri. It was rare to come across anyone who thought of Missouri as part of the south. Basically, southern missouri is way to broad in my experience. User:sfmontyo

I'm pretty sure that I based that on something that I read in Missouri, which doesn't seem to be there now. So I gladly defer to you as somebody that would know what they were talking about. (Plus, there's a Missourian in the room with me that agrees with you too.) -- Toby (a native Nebraskan) 23:27 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC)

I always thought of the Midwest as ending at the Mississippi River, and of the Plains states as constituting a region unto themselves. -Smack 00:32 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Minnesota (west of the Mississippi in part) considers itself "upper midwest") dml

---

Another question. I've never read Life on the Mississippi, but Huck Finn is better described as a Southern novel than a Midwestern novel. Life on the Mississippi is hardly famous. I say they should be removed from the article. -Smack 00:45 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

---

I think this caption is vague. If I didn't know where the US midwest is, I would have no idea what the "salmon-colored" section is... Describing a color as salmon seems like it may be confusing to some, since I think salmon have a fairly limited range. Surely there is some better way to say this. Tuf-Kat 05:50, Oct 2, 2003 (UTC)

---

I'm not sure what to do with a lot of the recent additions. Seems somewhat POV, but I find it hard to specify exactly why. For example:

Because the Northwest Ordinance region comprising the heart of the Midwest was the first large region of the United States which prohibited slavery (the Northeastern states emancipated slaves four decades into the 19th century), the region remains culturally apart from the country and proud of its free pioneer heritage. The regional southern boundary was the Ohio River, the border of freedom and slavery in American history and literature (See: Uncle Tom's Cabin, by Harriet Beecher Stowe; Beloved, by Toni Morrison).

Now, is it really accurate to say "the region remains culturally apart from the country and proud of its free pioneer heritage"? I've lived in the midwest my whole life and I don't especially feel "culturally apart from the country". But maybe that's just me. Even if it is accurate to say that, is it accurate to say the reason is because it was the first large region to prohibit slavery?

The recent additions are rife with such statements. While I agree that the role the midwest played as free states and with the Underground Railroad were an important part of the midwest's heritage, I don't see it as being the central defining characteristic. I started doing some edits, but I don't have the time to really think through all the ramifications. I'm going to add this to Wikipedia:Cleanup to request additional eyes to look at this. Bkonrad | Talk 14:01, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that the Midwest often feels overlooked because of heavy biases toward the coasts, though I imagine every place outside the East- and West-coast megalopoli feels a bit cheated from time to time. Anyway, it's flyover country.

One thing is that the midwest actually turns out to have been fairly racist from time to time (MLK once said that areas around Chicago were practically worse than many regions in the South). Okay, so I'm basically just saying, yes, this article needs cleanup… —Mulad 17:32, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Midwest" will always be somewhat vague

There's nothing "Western" about Ohio anymore and it is well to the east of a majority of the states of the U.S. but will always be deemed "Midwestern" due to the Northwest Ordinance. However, a few years ago I read where a particularly dominant University of Kentucky Wildcats basketball teams was dubbed the "Monsters of the Midwest". I know that's a play on the old Chicago Bears, the "Monsters of the Midway", but then I thought, well, only seventy miles or so north of Lexington is the very Midwestern-feeling Kentucky suburbs of Cincinnati, although to me nowhere is much more stereotypcially Southern than Lexington (except for its climate), with all of the whiskey distillation, horse farms, and tobacco raising in the area. Louisville, too, is somewhat Midwestern with its frequent Knights of Columbus halls, and much faster pace of life than rural Kentucky or much of the rest of the South; not for nothing is the tourism motto of Bullitt County, the next county due south of Louisville, "Where the real South begins". Northwest Tennessee has much more of the landforms of the Midwest than what one generally associates with that state, but the culture in most ways seems determinedly Southern. Oklahoma is quite Midwestern in many ways: Tulsa has at least as much of a Midwestern feel to it as it does Southern, and certainly, oil companies to the contrary, hardly feels Southwestern at all. "Midwest" will in some ways always mean just what the speaker wants it to mean. Rlquall 20:06, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think we have to consider that there is a prejudice in the United States with people who are culturally Southern. See Southern United States under "Lifestyle". We've seen nomenclature changes before in cultural groups who wish to distance themselves from stereotypes.

--ScottyFLL 20:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see much difference between suburban Cincinnati and Lexington. Tobacco and whisky are produced even across the river into such Ohio counties as Brown County, and the AQHA's horse show for the region is held not in Lexington nor even Louisville, but Columbus. Agriculture doesn't really change in the seventy miles between Lexington and Cincinnati; it's not until you get north of Dayton that you see the archetypically Midwestern crop farms. And let us not forget the water tower in the Cincy suburb of Florence, Kentucky stating, in the plaintive Southern tradition, "Welcome to Florence, y'all." Of course, all this just goes to show that "Midwest" is largely a subjective term, as you've said. -- SwissCelt 05:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The football fight song of The University of Michigan goes, "Hail, hail, Michigan, the champions of the West." Those of us who actually LIVE in the West have to chuckle. RickK 20:41, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)

Well, Michigan was in the West (well, sort of) back when Hail to the Victors was written. Also, not to start an edit war, but to the anonymous recent editor: "Scots-Irish" is equally acceptable as "Scotch-Irish", just as "Scots whisky" is almost as acceptable as "Scotch Whisky". Rlquall 22:24, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That line in The Victors is actually a reference to the Big Ten Conference, which was originally nicknamed the "Western Conference" (as the only other conference existing at the time was a league of East Coast schools). The song was written by student Louis Elbel after a last-second victory over Chicago that clinched the 1898 Western Conference title. Funnyhat 06:52, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Two points, briefly

1)Let's try to add new threads to the bottom, not the top of talk pages, so that the thing makes logical sense to someone trying to read it from start to finish. 2)Let's all try to sign our posts, regardless of how good and right we think that they are.

Rlquall 05:33, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't much care for the wording "very liberal liberal arts colleges" even though I know that political liberalism and "liberal" in the sense of liberal arts are two diffent things and that the sentence is largely correct in that all of the liberal arts colleges listed are also politicallly liberal. It just sounds confusing. I'm less pleased with the idea about "mixing of Protestantism and Calvinism". That to me is like saying "a mixture of wine and Merlot". Calvin was a Protestant, Calvinism is a species of Protestantism. Rlquall 23:24, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

the term midwest is rather confusing. it's obviously a completely separate area from what's called the west. Gringo300 02:45, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Yeah, that's why it's not called "the west"; it's called "the midwest". Granted, it's a bad name for the region, but that's not for us to decide. That's what it's called. Tverbeek 03:06, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nice revised map - but...

...the inclusion of West Virginia and Kentucky as peripherally Midwestern in cultural character seems like stretching the definitions a bit, even if there may be a great deal of commuting and other economic ties across the Ohio River. //Big Adamsky 17:09, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Kentucky I would have to agree with. It may be on the edge of the South, but historically and culturally it most certainly *is* part of the South. Northern Kentucky on the Ohio River near Cincinnati is quite Midwestern, but the other 95% of the state is very clearly Southern. So in that case I would have to agree that Kentucky should not be included in this defintion West Virgina on the other hand is a more difficult issue. Culturally it's a mix of Southern, Midwestern and Northeastern -- particularly in terms of it's industrial culture that has many similitaries to neighboring Pennsylvania (which is unquestionably Northeastern). Unlike Kentucky, however, West Virgina is historically not part of the South. On the other hand it doesn't fit very well under the definition of Midwestern nor Northeastern either. The point being, West Virginia is literally the location where the three major regions east of the Mississippi come together and this makes it very different to identify it with one region or another. As a result I would consider it a border state -- particularly between the Midwest and the South. { stereoisomer 4:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC) }

All these people are claiming parts of Kentucky and West Virginia as "Midwest". Personally, I don't see it... not at all. I think the confusion comes in thinking of Ohio as culturally homogenous, which it isn't. One need only compare the areas around Ohio University, Youngstown State University, and Bowling Green State University to learn the differences in culture within the state of Ohio. The three campuses compare more favorably to the University of Tennessee (at Knoxville), the University at Buffalo, and Iowa State University (respectively) than to one another. Accordingly, the parts of Ohio bordering Kentucky and West Virginia are much more Appalachian in nature (or "Southern", although this is itself a misnomer when applied to the region) than Midwestern. -- SwissCelt 05:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm happy I'm not the only who thought it strange to include West Virginia and Kentucky in the Midwest. I lived in Ketucky for 2 years, and even the extreme north, which most locals seem to consider to be more Midwestern than southern in culture, still seemed "southern" to me, someone born and raised in Chicagoland. Its all relative to a point, but too much of a stretch to say that Kentucky and West Virginia are midwestern. Kemet 23 February 2006

St. Louis or Cincinnati are not the definiton of Midwestern cities as they are too often considered to have a strong Southern inflence and are the cities Louisville is compared to when some people categorize it as the Midwest (Cincinnai more than St. Louis; St. Louis got there Southern vibe from the black Migration to the North). Cincinnati as called by residence of upper Ohio Cincinatucky is obviously more mix of Southern and Midwestern. Louisville is more of a boom town to all, But maybe 5 Midwestern cities when it comes to population growth. Also Louisville is growing faster than New Orleans (post Katrina) and just about every major Louisiana, Alabama, and mississippi cities.

The fact is that Louisville has much more Culturally, Historically, and Architecturally in common with Memphis than St. Louis. Afterall most people view Louisville as a Southern city. Louisville was (back in the 19th century) actually defined as the manufacturing Captial of the South and the Gateway city to the South. Due to Louisville's location on the Ohio, which helped it to attract to Industry to the area just like other Southern River cities suchas Memphis and New Orleans and even non river cities like Birmingham. Louisville's title as the manufacturing Capital of the South also came into play when the L&N (Louisville and Nashville) (there was no L&C; Louisville and Chicago) was constructed that connected Louisville to Nashville and further South to Atlanta. Louisville also had one of the largest slave owning populations (there were no slaves in the North except for the southern edge of Missouri) in the country (even though it was just across the river from a free state) which was just a reflection of it's state which had the 3rd largest slave population after (Virginia and Georgia). During the Civil War Louisville was constently under question by the North for aiding the Confederacy, and was by no means trusted by the North. To this day a Confederate monument stands in the City's first suburb Old Louisville. Also unlike Midwestern cities Louisville does not have a sigifigant population of Eastern and Southern Europeans (from places like Poland and Hungary) that came during a European Migration period (WWII). Even small Midwestern cities like South Bend and Toledo received a substantial number of immigrants from those areas of the world.

Archtiecturally Louisville's first suburb Old Louisville with it's wrought iron, huge fountains, huge Magnolias looming over the streets and Victorian style architecture that are found only in the most prominent Southern cities of the 19th century like Charleston, New Orleans, Savanah, and even Richmond, NOWHERE in the Midwest. Also Louisville like New Orleans urban areas (at least in the West or older parts of town) are lined with Shotgun houses destintively Southern, found mostly in cities like New Orleans.

Culturally Louisville is much much more of a Southern city than Midwestern, Like i've said earlier if you compare louisville's Culture, History, and Architecture to that of New Orleans and Birmingham (2 Deep Southern cities) and then compare it to that of Minnianapolis and Milwaulkee (2 upper Midwestern cities) Louisville undoubtibly has 3x more in common with the Southern cities.

KNOW LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY IS WILL AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SOUTH!!!!

Kansas should not be considered peripherial. Nearly every survey I've seen has put that state as the heart of the region. James Shortridge's "The Middle West" It s Meaning in American Culture is a good read for that. Great Lakes states are not the only Midwestern states.

All the data here regarding Cincinnati is highly questionable. Cincinnati has virtually nothing in common with Southern culture or identity and is indeed definitive of a Midwestern city. Cincinnati most closely identifies with Chicago due to it's history of similar businesses, industries and culture. If any city in the region is a hybrid of Midwestern and Southern, then it is indeed Louisville. Cincinnati and Louisville are often compared because of a) their proximity, b) they're Ohio River cities, and c) they're approximately the same size. But that's where the simalarities end. Everything south of the Ohio River is distinctly different than what lies to the north. Even driving 15-30 minutes south of Cincinnati into Northern Kentucky will yield a cultural experience significantly different (e.g. attitudes, accents, entertainment) than that of downtown or suburban Cincinnati. Furthermore, the term 'Cincinatucky' is flat out bogus. My family has lived in Ohio (specifically Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland) for over 150 years, I've lived her almost all my life and I, nor anyone else I know, has ever used the word "Cincinatucky" or seen it in print anywhere in Ohio or the surrounding region. -- Stereoisomer 00:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually in Cleveland, we generally consider Cincinnati to be part of Kentucky. Unlike the focus of much of this dialogue (Midwest vs. South), Cleveland is a mix of Midwest and Northeastern (generally divided by the Cuyahoga River) due to the original immigrants settling the two cities of Cleveland (primarily settled by New Englanders) and Ohio City (primarily settled by Appalachians). I view Cleveland as one-half Hartford (on the East Side) and one-half Cincinnati (on the West Side). That said, I agree that no one, in their right mind, views WV and Kentucky as "Midwestern". It seems to me that "Midwest" is comprised of the Great Lakes States (primarily the Old Northwest Territory) and some portion of the eastern Plains States (I believe Missouri and Iowa are Midwestern, but it probably doesn't go farther west than Mississippi and Missouri River states). In sum, all of the fringe areas of any region will share some influence from and characteristics of their neighbors. That should suggest neither exclusion of the fringes nor inclusion of the neighbors. Mayor Pez 04:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Midwest" and "Heartland" used synonymously?

I've noticed this article (and others) refer to the two as if they overlap considerably when in fact they are two very distinct regions. It has always been my understanding that the Midwest is essentially the states that lie north of the Ohio River, south of the Great Lakes, west of the Northeastern states (New England, etc.) and east of the Mississippi River. The Heartland, on the other hand, is the states that lie East of the Rocky Mountains and west of the Mississippi River. With the possible exception of Texas which is so large that, depending on what part of the state you're in, you can experience distinctly Southern, Southwestern or Heartland culture.

For example (and I realize this isn't citable information), I was raised in and currently live in Ohio and it is unheard of around here to refer to this region as the Heartland. In addition, I have a large chunk of family in Oklahoma and it is unheard of out there to refer to that region as the Midwest. On the other hand I have another large chunk of family in Illinois where Chicago area people refer to the region as the Midwest, whereas those south of Peoria commonly refer to the region as the Heartland. The point being, there is most definitely some overlap (which is to be expected), but essentially the two terms are *not* interchangable. { stereoisomer 4:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC) }

The "heart" of something is its center. It is not bound by man-made geographic boundaries nor by culture. If you look at a map of the U.S., what is referred to as the Heartland is just where you'd expect it to be, and would include much of what we also call the "Breadbasket". It would not include the Chicagoland area, but southern Illinois would definitely fit.

There is almost always going to be overlap when we deal with "regions". New York could be considered Eastern, Mid-Atlantic, Northeastern, in relation to the rest of the country.

--ScottyFLL 20:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to disambiguate this section a little bit, and moderated the strong point of view to a more inclusionary tone. It still needs work, but at the very least it now recognizes the fact that the Midwest is different things to different people.

[edit] Disamibiging page

This page was disambiguadted from a region in Australia by Silsor and moved to Midwest region of the United States . Under WikiProject U.S. regions' naming conventions it should be at Midwest (United States), if disambiged, and Midwest if not. I had nothing to do with deciding to disambig the page I'm simply placing the now disambiged page at the title it should be at. Please do not direct comments or complaints about the disambig about the page at me. Thanks. -JCarriker 11:45, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute?

Um... can someone tell me what's disputed here? The only "issue" I can see appears to be a difference opinion about markup, and which of two substantially-equivalent maps to use. Tverbeek 00:33, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions. Thryduulf 12:59, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] College listings

Could we just do away with all college listings in the Culture section? It's getting to be a bit ridiculous; every user who reads this page wants to add their alma mater to the state. Unless we have some strict guidelines about what colleges we list, the listing is useless. --BaronLarf 15:36, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

I know I'm reviving this topic from the dead, but I'm coming to agree with Larf. The college section is becoming unmanagable. Every 400 person independent school is being listed here. I'm as guilty as anyone is of bloating it (I added my alma mater, though it is the US News & World Report #2 Midwest school), but maybe we should just leave the references to uncontested powerhouses like Notre Dame, Chicago, and Northwestern and remove the rest. Craig R. Nielsen 02:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Walter Mondale

It may be worth mentioning that Minnesota, as the only state that voted for Walter Mondale in 1984, is Mondale's home state. That's not to say that Minnesota doesn't tend to be strongly "blue", but my impression is that the home-state thing had a lot to do with it that year. TishaStacey 18:13, 28 October 2005 (UTC) (forever an Iowan)

[edit] Colours and appearance

I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions --Qirex 05:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] majority of the midwest?

Is this statement just somebody's opinion or is there some scientific/geographic basis for this claim: "The majority of the midwest can now be categorized as urbanized areas or pastoral agriculture. "??? For instance, the Great Lakes basin as well as northern Wisconsin and Minnesota are heavily carved out by glaciers which is why Minnesota is the land of 10,000 lakes and the Boundary waters while the Upper Peninsula of Michigan has the Porcupine Mountains and several significant waterfalls. It sounds like someone is just recounting the geographic featurs of their road trip to Saint Louis. MPS 04:38, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] size information

hi, i would like to suggest to include the size of the midwest area, at least roughly. i was just searching for information on the region, and while the article gave me pretty much everything i needed, i had to calculate the approximate size by adding up the sizes of the 12 states, which makes about 2.1 million km². i see that the geographical definitions of the region vary and maybe there are also other reasons not to include this number, so...just a suggestion.

also, using the census.gov site, i could roughly split the stated population number into the different ethnical groups, so maybe that's also something that could be added.

[edit] THE MIDWEST IS IN THE FREAKING EAST, NOT MIDDLE!!

Yes, the westernmost Midwest states, which are sometimes thought of as WESTERN states, are in the north-middle of the US, but the rest are not. Iowa, Minnesota, and Missouri are all close enough to the middle, and really Wisconsin and Illinois too, but Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan are all as close to the east coast as they are to Kansas and the center-most great plains. That's east in my book.

You make important points, I made some small alterations though to the Coast reference and also the direction by which it spanned. Craig R. Nielsen 20:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion page, I'm not convinced eastern Ohio and the whole of West Virginia and Kentucky are "Midwestern" anyway. -- SwissCelt 11:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Ohio should probably stay because of the Northwest Territory and Western Ohio, but West Virginia and Kentucky are south of the river and don't even consider themselves the Midwest. Craig R. Nielsen 18:17, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

As a native Clevelander, we Eastern Ohioans consider ourselves Midwestern, although I was told that some other people don't. However, after going to college in Rhode Island, I can assure you that we have much more in common with the Midwest than with the East Coast, or even with western PA. It was always weird to come home and have people in stores greet and smile at you, after living among the prickly New Englanders for nine months!

--72.195.134.10 05:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Joe

Growing up in Minnesota, we considered Ohio "East". Living in New York City, we most certainly did NOT consider Ohioans to be Easterners. And now living in Florida, and knowing some people from Ohio living here, I can say that they are Midwestern, by geography, culture and language (verbiage and accent), and possibly most importantly, by self-description.

I have never in my 45 years seen anyone refer to West Virginia as Midwestern. West Virginia is not geographically, not culturally, not linguistically, and probably not by the self-description of its residents, either, a Midwestern state. Even the West Virginia listing in Wikipedia makes no mention of any kind of Midwestern identity.

--ScottyFLL 20:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, as a native Ohioan also now living in Florida, and having also lived in Pennsylvania, I can tell you there are some New Yorkers who don't even consider Philadelphians to be Easterners. West Virginia and Eastern Kentucky share much culture, geography, and more with Eastern Ohio and Western Pennsylvania. The region is Appalachian, not Midwestern (and probably not Eastern, either). -- SwissCelt 22:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rust Belt

The Midwestern United States#Definition section seems to use Rustbelt as a synonym for Eastern or Northeastern, but the Rust Belt article itself shows it as centered on Midwestern cities, with little penetration to the east of the Alleghenies. --JWB 22:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I think the section was comparing the Rustbelt cities (Cleveland, Youngstown, etc.) to Northeastern cities such as Rochester, Allentown, and Springfield (Mass). The comparison can certainly be made, as these Rustbelt cities more closely resemble the cities in the Northeast than to "other" Midwestern cities such as Indianapolis, Des Moines, Dayton, etc. Personally, I even notice a difference between Lima, Ohio, which is certainly Midwestern, and Warren, Ohio, which is Rustbelt. These similarly-sized cities are in major decline after losing much industry, but Lima remains an agricultural center where Warren was never much of an agricentre. -- SwissCelt 22:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't mention Rochester, Allentown, or Springfield MA, leading you to wonder whether it is talking about NYC etc.

Digging a bit deeper, the section seems to be using 'Metropolis and 'Rustbelt' in the specific sense of The Day America Told the Truth, which is not obvious, as it doesn't say so. It also seems to be using 'Heartland' in some specific jargony sense, though I'm not sure where that's from; it's not from Nine Nations of North America either. --JWB 05:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that Rustbelt is being used as a synonym of "Post-Industrial" and Midwest is being used as a synonym of "Agricultural" in this section. Detroit and Flint, Michigan, Gary, Indiana, and Duluth, Minnesota (among others, I'm sure) had similar industrial declines, and no one is arguing that they're not Midwestern. I think this section needs to be revised... the Post-Industrial/Agricultural split has nothing to do with whether a state or city is "Midwestern" or not. --Sarnacke 20:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to revise the section a bit, and have moderated the language to be more inclusionary in tone.

[edit] Mideast

Due to the archaic nature of the name for this region, it will now be corrected to the Mideast. Not to be confused with Middle East. The Mideast region of the United States lies on the middle and eastern part of the US, while the new Midwest region will consist of what was called "the Rockies." Senate voting will begin on tuesday. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.97.134.122 (talk • contribs).

So, you have essentially decided to vote to rename a region of the United States? Can we rename West Virginia while we're at it? It's in the East. And it's actually probably better referred to, in relation to the state of Virginia, as Northwest Virginia. Or maybe we can just merge them.

--ScottyFLL 19:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defining regions by highway signs

"Highway signs along eastbound Interstate 80 in Ohio's Trumbull and Mahoning counties, located at Ohio's eastern border, display "New York City" as their control city. Thus, it is arguable that this shows an affinity for Ohioans in that area to the Northeast."

I've heard a lot of ways to define regions, but this is a new one for me. While I doubt one could argue convincingly that highway sign control cities say much of anything about the people living near the signs, the idea that you could delineate regions this way is strange enough to make me want to see a map of regions based on this system. I'm skeptical that there GIS data on highway sign locations and their control cities exists, but if it does, let me know and I'll make a map of the regions of America based on it, just for fun.

Still, in this article, this sentence strikes me as somewhat desperate in trying to define regional boundaries. Pfly 22:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] traficant

someone inserted that James Dan Traficant was a "left wing liberal" Democrat, I deleted this as such lables are POV and in this case wholly inaccurate, he was a conservative leaning Dem, praised by Rush Limbaugh as his "favorite democrat", considered switching parties prior to his indictment...

[edit] Interesting facts

I like the idea of including this info, but I didn't like where it was in the article nor the format. Can someone think of a better place for it? Maybe a new article of some kind? It would need a context, though, since Wikipedia isn't a travel guide. Confiteordeo 01:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting sights to see in various midwestern states include: OHIO: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame; Amish communities; Cedar Point Amusement Park; Wright Air Force Museum; Pro Football Hall of Fame INDIANA: Indianapolis Motor Speedway; Dunes State Park; Notre Dame University MICHIGAN: Henry Ford's Greenfield Village museum; Mackinac Island; various ski resorts WISCONSIN: Wisconsin Dells scenic river gorge; Circus World in Baraboo; scenic Door County peninsula ILLINOIS: Cultural attractions of Chicago; Abraham Lincoln home; Ronald Reagan home MISSOURI: Gateway Arch, Six Flags park, and outstanding St. Louis Zoo; city of Branson with live music show theaters, amusements, and hill scenery; Harry Truman home NEBRASKA: Pioneer Village museum in Minden SOUTH DAKOTA: Black Hills; Mount Rushmore; Badlands; Corn Palace MINNESOTA: fishing in countless lakes; gigantic Mall of America; Mayo Clinic NORTH DAKOTA: Badlands; International Peace Garden KANSAS: Aerospace Museum in Hutchinson; Eisenhower home; reconstructed Dodge City

[edit] NE Ohio

Whether or not NEO is "midwestern" is always a sticky point, but I'd say that the region does not have as many *cultural* similarities to areas as far east as New York City and Northern New Jersey. Obviously, the region has a lot more in common with Western PA and the westernmost part of New York, but even then, only really with the areas surrounding Pittsburgh and Buffalo, respectively. I think a closer parallel could be drawn between NEO and metro Detroit. Yes, many of the early settlers in the region came from New England, but that's true for a lot of other inland states. Many of the immigrants to the region were Eastern European and Irish, and to a lesser extent Italian, but this is true of a lot of cities, including Chicago and Milwaukee, and Detroit, which are all unquestionably Midwestern. Simply put, I don't think you can shoehorn Northeast Ohio into the East, although it definitely isn't Iowa. In my opinion, the best term for the Cleveland-Akron and other such metro areas would be "inland north," or "Great Lakes," although the latter certainly wouldn't include Pittsburgh. Confiteordeo 01:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military recruits by state

I have removed the following for lack of documentation:

The Midwest remains, with the South, a disproportionately large source of servicemembers for the United States military, and remains a thoroughly patriotic and American center.

The 2005 recruit-to-population ratio of the U.S. military is:
Illinois: 0.89
Indiana: 1.01
Iowa: 0.90
Kansas: 1.19
Michigan: 0.94
Minnesota: 0.70
Missouri: 1.22
Nebraska: 1.18
North Dakota: 0.88
South Dakota: 1.27
Ohio: 1.02
Wisconsin: 0.92

The national ratio is 1.0. Using the narrow definition of Midwestern states (boldfaced above), the recruit-to-population ratio is 0.91, below the national average. Using the broader definition of Midwestern states, the ratio is 1.01.

Source: Tim Kane, Ph.D., Who Are the Recruits? The Demographic Characteristics of U.S. Military Enlistment, 2003–2005, The Heritage Foundation, 2006. Table 9: U.S. Military Recruits by State.
— Walloon 02:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

These numbers can't be recruit-to-population ratios for each state. Are they percentages, by chance? Or maybe a ratio between each state's percentage of recruits and the national average? (I'm guessing this one, since you said the national ratio is 1.0, which it of course would be by definition if this is the case, as a ratio of something to itself.) A recruit-to-population ratio of 1.0 for a state would mean everyone in the state is a recruit, and a ratio above 1.0 would be impossible. — 71.115.91.118 15:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

1.00 indicating an exact proportional representation of that state's recruitment to the national average. A number above 1.00 indicates that the state recruited more of its population than the national average, a number below 1.00 means that the state recruited less of its population than the national average. See the original report, linked above, if you have any other question. — Walloon 22:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. That's what I suspected, but not what it said above. 71.115.91.118 01:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linguistic Influence

The Teslur project maps [1] and the Atlas of North American English (chapter eleven [2]) show that the area most free of regional dialect elements is centered on south-central Iowa, east to the Quad Cities, and west to about Lincoln, Nebraska. While there is no such thing as a "General American" accent, the speech found in this part of the Midwest is quite neutral. I re-wrote the section to reflect this, and I eliminated the reference to "General American," since this idea really only exists in textbooks designed to teach English to foreigners. As for the origins of Midwestern speech, all American accents are ultimately derived from the accents of the original British colonists. About the recent edits about the history of the accent: the settlement patterns outside of the original colonies are quite nebulous, so it's hard to say that Midwestern accents "originated" in the northeast. If you can find a reference to support those origins, please feel free to reinsert the information, with the proper source. Confiteordeo 23:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Border states

In the editing of this page and several other pages relating to the cultural regions of the Eastern United States, it has become apparent that many users are willing to rapidly - and often, without great thought/research/consideration - pigeonhole the old "border states" into one region. This became somewhat evident on this page when the comment "Kentucky and W. Virginia are rarely considered part of the Midwest" was added to the regional map. The discussions on this page reveal similar opinions.

Let us remember that the border states of MO, KY, WV, DE, and MD have always - and probably always will - be marked by incredible varieties in the local cultures, habits, customs, climates, and self-identifications. To attempt to establish, as many people have, that "Missouri is ENTIRELY Midwestern" or that "Kentucky is ENTIRELY Southern" or that "DE is now ENTIRELY Northeastern" is incredibly naive and shows a total lack of understanding of the history and cultures of these states. Even without a thorough analysis, simply glancing at the demographics, linguistic profiles, religious affiliations, and political habits of these states should instantly render us more cognizant of their transitional natures. Little Dixie, Missouri; Northern Kentucky and Louisville; the Northern Pahandle of West Virginia; Southern Coastal Delaware; these are all regions of border states (and there are certainly many more) that, through their marked differences with a so-called "prevalent" culture in the same state, reveal that the border states were forged of both Northern/Midwestern and Southern/Appalachian cultural elements. There are plenty of citizens of MO and MD who, due to their heritages and lifestyles, would prefer to be considered Southern, just as there are plenty of citizens of KY and WV who, for the same reasons, would prefer to be considered Northern or Midwestern. And I would certainly trust these citizens to more correctly identify their own cultural backgrounds than a random Wikipedia editor working off of some grade-school stereotypes and a relatively minor understanding of these states.

In the future, it would be great to see some acknowledgment of the cultural differences in this region. It is time that some people realize that cultural influences do not abruptly shift and end at rivers or lines on maps. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.88.158 (talk) 06:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Kentucky & WEst Virginia--zero evidence

[edit] Edits of article on the Midwestern United States

Dear sir,

I was responsible for removing a comment on the article regarding the Midwestern United States that I believe constitutes an opinion, not research or fact, and was in contradiction to information listed regarding the regional map; this information pertained specifically to the border states of Kentucky and West Virginia. I have already written an explanation of the reasoning behind my actions on the discussion page, entry 19, "Border states."

You are partially correct in your assumption; the ENTIRETY of the states of Kentucky and West Virginia are "rarely" considered Midwestern - I don't think this is ever the case for any of the border states, as their unique cultures are derivatives of the cultures of both North and South. However, WV and KY are currently both shaded states on the regional map, and the text currently under the regional map clearly states that "regional defintions vary from source to source...all OR portion of the striped states may or may not be considered part of the Midwestern United States." In their linguistic influences, agriculture, social customs, and general aspects there are parts of both KY and WV that are clearly far, far more Midwestern than Southern or Appalachian. In terms of climate, KY and WV will almost always be listed in the "Midwest" or "Northern" regions on weather charts; this is the case for the Weather Channel. (KY, in fact, sits right at the point where humid subtropical transitions into humid continental, and both of these climates are experienced in different parts of the state.) Simply search the picture function of any major search engine (Google, Yahoo, etc.) and you will find maps - many from private companies, educational and government bodies - that include KY as part of the Midwest. Remember, even border state Missouri is not universally accepted as Midwestern; I have read articles in which Missourians state disgust at having been regarded as "Southerners" in states such as Iowa and Illinois. The North Midland dialect of American English - considered "standard" American English and highly typical of the Midwest - dips into parts of both KY and WV. Numerous schools in KY participate in Midwestern athletic conferences - WKU in Bowling Green is in the Gateway Football Conference (member states Illinois, Indiana, Missouri, Kentucky, Iowa, and Ohio) and Northern Kentucky University in Highlands Heights is in the Great Lakes Valley Conference (member states Missouri, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Kentucky.)

We all tend to jump to conclusions at times, but the regional map on the page was correct as it was - parts of KY and WV are Midwestern, and parts aren't; this is exactly why they are striped instead of shaded, with adequate information provided to clarify the symbolism of that distinction. I will continue to monitor the page to assure that it stays that way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gator87 (talk • contribs) 09:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

I have never seen a reliable source that calls them Midwestern. Please provide citations. Rjensen 16:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I am rather surprised that you continue to fail to acknowledge that a portion of a state can have a culture that fits in with one region, while another portion may not. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp, and why do you continue to pigeonhole these states exclusively into one region, or out of another one, when throughout history they have served as gradual transitional areas? As previously stated, I do not think that anybody will (or has) attempt(ed) to make the argument that the entirety of any of the border states could be included in one region for cultural purposes (this is why they are always striped states on their respective pages; on the other US region pages, no states are explicitly excluded by a comment that contradicts the explanation.) There are probably no sources that regard the entirety of WV or KY as Midwestern because the entirety of these states are clearly not. The regional map has been well established and the explanation that was there prior to this comment being added was sufficient. "Portions" of WV and KY do, in fact, have a culture that is closer to Midwestern than the cultures of other region, and several metropolitan areas (Cincinnati, Louisville, Ashland-Huntington) straddle these states and states in the Census-bureau defined Midwest.

I have provided, in my previous argumentation, several pieces of evidence and areas of contention that demonstrate that portions/regions of these states have a predominantly Midwestern persona. People, such as myself, who have visited these states and these regions know this to be the case. Your Census citation proves that (to the government) these states are not Midwestern in their entirety, or even predominantly Midwestern throughout - and once again, nobody has been trying to establish that.

Wiki goes for the consensus of scholars--there MUST be citations. originial research is not allowed. Rjensen 20:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I jsut checked the new Midwest Encyclopedia (2006) -- none of the experts providing text or maps includes KY or WVa as part of the Midwest region. When I lived there (a decade ago) people in KY never called themselves Midwestern. Rjensen 23:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"When I lived there...people never considered themselves Midwestern." THAT is clearly original research. Sir, you continue to treat this as if it is a debate of entirety, when it is a debate regarding particular sub-regions, not entire states. The vast majority of people in the Northern Kentucky counties of Boone, Kenton, and Campbell do consider themselves Midwesterns, as does a sizable (but smaller) majority of people in metro Louisville, which includes several counties in Indiana. Sources such as the Weather Channel include KY and WV in Midwestern maps, and several colleges in these states participate in Midwestern athletic conferences. When Sen. Barack Obama recently spoke to a crowd of citizens in Louisville, he referred to them as "Midwestern." I am not attempting to provide original research - YOU are the person who has consistently ignored the fact that the map that was on this page for most of the page's existence included KY and WV as striped states, and this was agreed upon by the Wikipedia community with no consensus to change it.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.88.158 (talk) 04:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

I cited the new "The Amnerican Midwest" Encyclopedia (2006): it rejects KY and WVa in its maps and text. As does every other expert source. Betetr read some history of Louisville!Rjensen 04:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

As a native of the Kentuckiana region, I feel more than confident in my history of the state and city - and the vast majority of historical scholars acknowledge that the border states reflect the cultures of both South/Appalachia and Midwest/North/Northeast. Please regard the debate on the US Regional maps page, and you will see that the regional map for this article was agreed upon by the Wikipedia community. The same comment is used for the other US regions in describing the map, and should be used here to maintain consistency as this article is part of a larger project. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gator87 (talk • contribs) 04:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

I feel that Kentucky is indeed a Southern state (yes I'am a native of Louisville Kentucky). Yes while it may be considered Midwestern in some sources the state is generally considered Southern. In the Southern focus study Kentucky tied with Virginia having 86% of it's residence identifying as Southerners. Kentucky clearly does however have Midwestern influence, and it's most prominent in Northern Kentucky. Conversely Southern Indiana is said to have more in common with the South than the Rest of the Midwest as it's culturally and economically tied to the "Gateway city to the South" Louisville. Other than Northern Kentucky it's obvious that the rest of KEntucky is prodominantly Southern in culture. To honestly group Kentucky in the same region as Minnesota over Alabama is Historically inaccuarte.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.128.200.135 (talk • contribs) 17:55, December 10, 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Other regional maps

It should be noted that, essentially, what other users have been attempting to do recently is change the content of the regional maps. If they wish to pursue this option, they should do so on the appropriate pages, and there should be an informed debate regarding that issue. For a very long time, the border states have been striped on all of these regional maps, with an appropriate description given in the image caption; this was done for a reason and it is the result of a general consensus among the Wikipedia community. It is bizarre that some users wish to single-handedly alter this consensus for their own purposes. Personal opinions should not be allowed to take precedence over the established consensus of the Wikipedia community. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.88.158 (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC).