Talk:Michael Schumacher/archive 4

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[edit] Inclusion of a section on anti-schumacher propaganda/reporting

The incredibly anti-schumacher attacks that are continuously vomited up en masse by significant portions of the English media is disturbing both to me as a forumla one fan and doubly disturbing to me as a citizen of the world when I hear this coming from public scources, such as the BBC. This venomous assault on Schumacher has been noted by other journalists as well, and I think a section covering this unique phenomenon is rather appropriate given the commonality and magnitude of this assault throughout schumachers soon-to-be ending career. More often than not, Schumacher is called "the German", and I've yet to hear a single English broadcaster actually pronounce his name right, yet the English commentators elsewhere go to great lenghts to pronounce even extremely odd Africa names correctly in the case footballers and the like. The stereotypical article such as these usually includes jingoism, grotesque pictures/caricatures of schumacher making some kind of non-normal facial experession, hypocrisy, and what seems to be outright ignorance of facts/reality of a given situation. A motor sports>commentator/journalist summed it up pretty well:

"I am beginning to understand the primary reason for all the sad Schumacher bashing that hits the press and online media. Michael Schumacher is not English and he certainly does not drive for an English team and for a sport that has its heart in England, it looks unlikely that he will ever be a complete hero with the men who wield their pen more often than the German wield's his steering wheel.

It is a pity that more and more viewers and people all over the world listen and read about how Schumy is hesitant to go on a all out battle with other drivers on the track rather than in the pit lane. The commentators are all English, the authors are all English; it is as if to say that one needs an Italian writer to get some credible story on the stunning performances that Ferrari and its ace driver have put in this year." [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ernham (talk • contribs).

I'm sorry, I totally disagree. And from what I have found the author of the above quote ("I am beginning to understand....") is not a motorsport commentator but a blogger! I was astounded to read that you have chosen to highlight the BBC as a producer of "vomitous" anti-Schumacher attacks. Here are the first BBC stories about Schumacher from 2006, 2005 and 2004. I challenge you to find any "vomit" or "non-normal facial experession":
I'm not going to deny that there are not some idiotic commentators out there, however it is equally, I'm sorry, idiotic to label all English-speaking commentators as xenophobic/jinogistic or blindly anti-Schumacher. You seem to be coming from a position that Schumacher is a flawless character! However any balanced description of the man has to take into account that although a brilliant driver capable of astonishing speed, he has flaws. Call them misjudgements, lack of sportsmanship, whatever - to leave them out of articles would be to provide an incomplete analysis of his career.
You really could have picked a better article to make your point. The article you have chosen is a disgrace. It says "it is as if to say that one needs an Italian writer to get some credible story on the stunning performances that Ferrari and its ace driver have put in this year". Every ITV race report from ITV has been very complimentary. Also see a summary of his 10 best wins from from ITV, "When Michael Schumacher gets out of his Ferrari for the final time at the Brazilian Grand Prix on October 22 it will bring the curtain down on a record-breaking career that has seen him rack up an astonishing seven world titles and 90 wins (so far!). " [2]
Also please be careful when using the term "English". While undoubtedly most F1 commentators based in the UK are likely to be based in England, that doesn't necessarily mean they are English. British and English are two distinct terms. Mark83 09:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Spare me. I can read. And i read nothing but trash and hear little but trash from the British press, and it has been that way since approximately '94. Read the new "tainted legacy" where complain that people like senna were greater champions because Schumcahcer was invovled in some incidents, but it's like they never saw senna race at all. Senna was involved in just as many controversial and incredibly dangerous situations/incidents as schumacher, and he was only in F-1 for almost HALF THE TIME Schumacher was. Even in '94, I remember schumacher saying in an interview that he "might not even have to fight over second place". He was referring to Senna's incredibly dangerous driving and his crazy belief that god protected him on the race track. In any event, Senna was crazy and invovled in far more controvesial incidents if you correct for years involved in forumla. And that was written by a formula 1/motorsport journalist from http://sify.com/sports/drive/. Look like a blog to you, Holmes? Hobbs, who is English himself but lives in the united states now has repeatedly said the same thing in the past. I'm aware of at least 2 other journalists/commentators that believe the same. It's a common realization for those of use that have watched f-1 since the days of Senna and earlier that the "rules of the press" are quite difference for Schumacher than anyone else. Ernham 12:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree that Michael, as a person, is consistently misrepresented in the worst sections of the British press, and I agree that nothing he has ever done on track approaches the enormity of some of Senna's unpunished exploits. I don't, however, think that those facts justify trying to make him appear blameless, or glossing over the controversies in his career. Nor, of course, does Ayrton's death justify an attempt to beatify him. -- Ian Dalziel 12:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and I never insinuated that major incidents be somehow made to make Schumacher appear blameless. The reality is that we can only speculate on to the degree of Schumacher's faults for the incidents we have seen. The section I'm talking about would be more along the lines of a "the price of being a champion", and briefly outline some of the facts of the matter. There may be very basic reasons for the bad press. For one, given the fact he has finished on the podium in, what, about 75% of the races he's been in? A lot, basically. And we know that these incidents that occur in F-1 always happened and they continue to happen and they happen to **everyone**. The fact that he is almost always in the top 3 vying for the win and championship at the end of the year greatly increases the chance that his "incidents" will involve on of the other top drivers, and such an incident can always be portrayed as an attemp to take out that rival, when in fact it was just a bad day for both drivers. Statistically, it was their "turn" for an incident. Then the media hams it up, basically. i'm not sure, though, but I know what i hear and read, and it rarely matches up with reality when it comes from the British press in combination with Schumacher.Ernham 14:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think I buy "everyone". I can't think of a controversial incident involving Stirling Moss, and the only controversy involving Jim Clark was about the final accident of "Taffy" von Trips. As far as I can see, Clark was blameless, but no doubt you'll disagree - and we're not going to find that one on YouTube. I think Senna changed the attitude to ruthless professionalism, and I think Michael carried on with the principle that anything that doesn't have a rule against it is acceptable. I wouldn't demonise either driver, but I think Wikipedia should give due weight to the controversial incidents. -- Ian Dalziel 21:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I didn't mean since "all time". Geez. Surely there are also people that only ever raced once or twice as well, going to include them too? No. I meant realistically, in the modern era of F1, which started about the time Prost started in F1, then, yes, everyone that's been around for awhile is going to get into any number if incidents.
Within your constraints, and off the top of my head - tell me about any allegations against Gerhard Berger, Thierry Boutsen, Jean Alesi or Heinz-Harald Frenzen? -- Ian Dalziel 11:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I can't recall any late race incidents involving Berger off hand, but I do recall early collisions with both Senna and Andretti. Boutsen smashed into Comas. Alesi? You gotta be kidding me. He had half a dozen. Heinz? Crashed into Tulli and Margiritos.I'm sure at least some of them have been invovled in more then just what pops into my mind after 5 minutes of contemplating it.

As for blogger vs. commentator; The quote you gave seems to be from here [3] by Vinesh V Nair, who is described elsewhere as a blogger. I repeat that it is one of the worst pieces of journalism I've read in a long time. He talks about the savaging Schumacher gets in the British press yet fails to give even a single example. Ernham, spare you? Spare you what? The proof that what you said about the BBC is wrong? I assume you're talking about tabloid press, in which case can I give you some advice? You're looking in the wrong place for intelligent commentary of F1. If you want to read British analysis of F1 please stick to F1 Racing or the excellent coverage in most of the quality papers. Mark83 13:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there some law I'm not aware of that states a blogger and a journalist/commentator are mutually exclusive? Also, do you consider the BBC a rag? The Guardian? Ernham 14:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
No, but journalist/commentator suggests some kind of training or experience. Anyone can be a blogger and anyone could write a better piece than the one you referenced. And no, every word I have written here is defending the BBC. You are the one who wrote "attacks that are continuously vomited up en masse by.... public scources, such as the BBC." I would appreciated if you withdrew what you said about the BBC or gave a reference to some "vomit" it has written about Schumacher. And I consider The Guardian a quality paper, I suggested you avoid tabloid press. Mark83 15:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
In order to withdraw such, I would need a time machine and a surgeon willing to remove my ears, eyes, and possibly even fingers for fear i might learn to read braile. The first time I recall thinking there is much more going on here than jealous or fair criticism of balls-to-the-wall champion i was watching a GP that had two commentators , both of which were English. In the early going of the race, a guy in a slower car was weaving to keep schumacher from passing him(the commentators did not mention he was weaving, interestingly) At one point, schumacher tries passing on a straight and looked like he was going to pull it off, at which point the other driver chopped him, nearly causing him to veer off into some grass in order to miss the collision. One of the commentators said, " Oh dear, what was (the name of the driver that chopped schumacher) thinking there. He nearly..." And then the other commentator cut him off with, "I know exactly what he was thinking: you aren't passing me, you arrogant little kraut." I got this in the united states, so this was an international broadcast.Ernham 16:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
That couldn't have been a BBC commentary and it is the BBC you accused of producing attacks, so you should have no problem of withdrawing your comments about the BBC. I say it couldn't have been a BBC commentary because they only produce commentary for BBC Five Live, and you couldn't watch a radio commentary. I also refuse to believe that any ITV commentator would use the term "kraut". We seem to be going circles, if you want to add something about British or other bias against Schumacher you would have to reference it better than your comments here. Mark83 16:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
You are right. I don't believe it was the BBC. I don't quite recall, as I was a teenager at the time. That wasn't the point. i was unaware you ahd some personal bend regarding my comment of BBC. Perhaps you should start by chasing down the article by them I originally mention, titled "tainted legacy", which claims that while schumacher is highly talented and comaprable to people like Senna, but that he has a "dark side", yet they never bring up the fact that if you control for years in formula-1, Schuamcher is a proverbial angel comapred to Senna, both on the track and off.Ernham 17:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Well just to be clear, I don't work for the BBC, know anyone who does, or have any personal interest in it. I just couldn't believe that you singled it out for criticism the way you did. The BBC did produce the British F1 coverage before ITV, however I find it even less likely that they would use the term "kraut". I don't have any first hand knowledge of Senna's career - I've only been following F1 for about 10 years. Your latest comment is the first time you have mentioned a specific article, I'll see if I can find it. Mark83 21:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
You can't say the British press is universaly anti-Schumacher. For example, the current ITV crew is actually quite sympathetic to Michael. James Allen is known to be a Ferrari fan (he named his son Enzo), and Martin Brundle was Schumacher's teammate and mentor at Benetton in 1992. The two were so close that Schumacher asked Ferrari to sign Brundle as his teammate in 1996, but Marlboro preferred Irvine. There are also more Schumi supporters than detractors in the respectable print media. Peter Windsor is a Schumi admirer, and the rest of the respectable journalists are pretty even-handed with Schumi. The only respected journalist with a consistent anti-Schumi stance is Nigel Roebuck. In the English tabloid media there are definetly mindless Schumi haters, but who cares about them? 141.161.36.76 02:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal/moving of sections of the "sportsmanship" section

75% of the sportmanship section is filled with FIA and their various associates, such as stewards, incompotence, having little to nothing to do with the supposed sportsmanship of Schumahcer.

This entire section, essentially:

"In 1998 season, Schumacher created controversy by winning the British GP in the pit lane. He was issued a 10s stop-and-go penalty for overtaking during the Safety Car laps. Knowing that a conventional in-stop-out penalty would lose him the race to championship contender Mika Häkkinen, the team delayed him going into the pit for the penalty the allowed number of laps (3) and only served the penalty after the end of the race, thus avoided the slow out lap from the pit that would have caused him to lose the race. However, because the stewards had incorrectly issued the penalty Schumacher escaped punishment as the stewards later rescinded the penalty. The penalty (for overtaking Alex Wurz under safety car on lap 43 of 60) should have been issued within 25 minutes but Ferrari were informed 6 minutes after the limit had expired. The handwritten notification was also unclear as to which penalty was actually being issued: a 10s stop/go, or 10 seconds added to Schumacher's race time (a penalty which could only be used to punish an infraction in the last 12 laps).[19] As a result the three stewards involved handed in their licences at an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Council.[20]

In 2003 European Grand Prix, Schumacher was helped back to the track by marshals when he ended up high-sided on the kerb after a spin. Many fans falsely believed that this was illegal, as drivers may not receive outside assistance to get back on the track. However, an exception is made if a car is in a dangerous position, and the FIA judged that this was indeed the case. Schumacher's critics complained of a double-standard, which they believe, again falsely, was substantiated by the marshals' refusal to aid Fernando Alonso in the 2004 Italian Grand Prix when he was in a similar situation. However, the rules for this situation had changed as the exception in the 2003 rules had been removed in the 2004 version. Schumacher also received a push from the marshals in the 2005 Australian Grand Prix, although he retired anyway due to suspension damage after driving back to the pits. However, Nick Heidfeld, who was involved in the same incident, received no help from the marshals and had to retire. However, receiving a push from marshals when a car is in a dangerous situation is hardly a unique or even rare thing. A notable example, for instance, is Riccardo Patrese, who won the 1982 Monaco Grand Prix having received a push from the marshals after a spin on the penultimate lap." Ernham 03:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Moving? maybe if you can find a better title. Removal? No Mark83 11:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you better think of one, then, because as it stands, these sections need to be removed. They have nothing to do with Schumacher personally. They all belong in a wiki about the FIA. Maybe changing the section before its name to championship collisions and other controversies and add it there. Even that I do no about the inclusion of some of this. If one is to include all these as issues involving schumacher, well he's had the short end of the the stick when it comes to the FIA more often than not, despite what the British peanut hallery/press like to believe in their fairytale landErnham 12:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
No they don't need to be removed. Ernham I think (and this is just my own personal opinion) that you need to take a step back and think what you're trying to achieve with your contributions to this article. If it is the white-washing of his entire career you've come to the wrong place. I know you've got a British press conspiracy theory, however criticism of Schumacher comes from a far wider field than the UK. Mark83 13:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe we have already heard your opinion on the matter. As far as I've seen, you have not adequately defended the position this belongs in a section regarding Schumachers sportsmanship. furthermore, if we count such incidents as note worthy for schumacher, then every F-1 winner in the last 30 years or so will need a section on the flippant nature of FIA, and we will call all the sections something in relation to sportsmanship. When you have done that with every driver satisfactorily, then we will but these back into the Schumacher wiki.

Ernham 14:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that you are blatantly opposed to anything that isn't complimentary. Your POV is blatant with edits such as describing Ferrari as a "juggernaut of world beaters". The above is a rediculous comment. A section is either justified or not; If it is justified the absence of a comparable section on other articles is irrelevant to its presence here. Mark83 14:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The section should be there, since there has been a lot of controversy about Schumacher's sportsmanship. However, I think the choice of incidents is pretty lousy. The first time that Schumi's sportsmanship was questioned was at the 1994 British GP (not taking the black flag), but this incident isn't in there. Another major issue is Schumacher's 'chop blocks', especially at race starts in 2000. The incidents that are listed don't actually have a lot to do with Schumi - Silverstone 1998 was a major screw-up by the stewards, and Nurburgring 2003 was completely legal. 141.161.36.76 21:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3rd opinion request

The sentence should be as informative as possible. The links to other people who helped turn the team around into a winning team are useful to people wanting to know more. The reference is absolutely necessary; references are Wikipedia policy. The more informative sentence with the links to to other team members and a reference should stay. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 15:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

i don't have any issues with the current one i just made, which happens to include them; however, the logic of this is quite stretching. Do we not also have to credit every person -- by name-- in the pit crew? all the management staff of Ferrari and etc. Shumacher is given the main credit for turnign them around because of not only his talent but because of his feedback. Almost every person that has been listed on there already Schumaacher actually talked into leaving benetton for Ferrari. Is their success not equally Schumachers since he was the key in bringing them on-board? There was nothing wrong with the original way i had, and most experts would agree that the success at ferrari has is almost completely the result of Michael Schuamcher. Even stirling moss said that in a documentary on michael several years back " It's not all the championships michael has won that has impressed me the most. It's what he did with Ferrari. I don't think anyone else could have ever done that" Ernham 15:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't recall of that was Jackie Stewart or Stirling Moss, actually. Hopefully i have not mis-atributed that. It's from one of the two Ernham 15:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The same logic extends to the new comment. If Schumacher was the only one to leave Benetton, Ferrari would never have been the team it is today. He was an essential part of its success, but so were the people that went with him. If Brawn, Byrne etc. had stayed at Benetton they could have got another driver and come at least close to their old success. Mark83 15:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Then perhaps it should be mentioned that they followed him from Bentton at his urging (if that was the case). ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 16:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's documented, but I think it's pretty clear that Michael was given carte blanche as to who else should be headhunted.
I'm not all that happy with either "also-ran" or "struggling", to be honest - Ferrari won one Grand Prix and finished third in the Constructor's Championship the year before Michael joined them. That was a poor return for all the money that had already been thrown at the team, but hardly "struggling". -- Ian Dalziel 18:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not happy with the whole end of the sentence "turning this once struggling team into the most winning Formula One team in history". This suggests Ferrari had never won a thing but Schumacher, Brawn etc. had turned it into the most successful F1 team. In reality they made a once great team great again. Mark83 20:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Once good, once struggling, then great. Relative to each other, that is an adequate psuedo-timeline. when schumacher first joined, compared to its former or current self, Ferrari was indeed "struggling".Ernham 22:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Could you translate "an adequate pseudo-timeline" into English for me, please? I'm a bit thick at times... -- Ian Dalziel 01:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The third sentence conveys essentially the same thing. Ignore the first and second if it troubles you. Ernham 03:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more info for Schumacher records

I don't have time to put this in now, but the following from The Times (UK), 11/9/06, p. 79, has info on his nearest rival for some of his records, quite interesting if it can be included, but maybe need a separate article for his records because this is getting quite lengthy. This article can also be found here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5923-2352113_2,00.html

SIMPLY THE BEST

Michael Schumacher’s career records make him far and away the most successful driver in Formula One history

Schumacher is the only driver to have finished an entire season on the podium (2002) and holds the record for the most successive races in the points with 24 (2001-2003) and most successive podium finishes with 19(2001-2002)

Schumacher also holds the record for the biggest winning points margin in a season with 67 in 2002, the year in which he became the fastest to win the title when he was crowned with six races to spare

With Rubens Barrichello, Schumacher holds the record for the most one-two finishes of any pairing in Formula One history with 24 between 2000-2005

Edward Gorman

Other records

FASTEST RACE LAPS

Michael Schumacher 75

Alain Prost 41 2nd

HAT-TRICKS (pole, win, fastest lap)

Michael Schumacher 22

Jim Clark 11 2nd

PODIUM FINISHES

Michael Schumacher 153

Alain Prost 106 2nd

TOTAL CAREER POINTS

Michael Schumacher 1,354

Alain Prost 768.5 2nd

WINS FROM POLE

Michael Schumacher 40

Ayrton Senna 29 2nd

POLE POSITIONS

Michael Schumacher 68

Ayrton Senna 65 2nd

GRAND PRIX WINS

Michael Schumacher 90

Alain Prost 51 2nd

DRIVERS’ CHAMPIONSHIPS

Michael Schumacher 7

Juan Manuel Fangio 5 2nd place

WINS IN A SEASON

Michael Schumacher, 2004 13

2002 11

1995, 2000, 2001 9

Nigel Mansell 9 2nd

195.222.43.148 21:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

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