Talk:Michael Schumacher

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Michael Schumacher article.



[edit] Good article passed

An easy decision. I think the fact that the article has been through Peer Review helped. A potential featured candidate. Oldelpaso 18:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Good thing. Me and other people worked hard to get this article better and GA status is a big step. FA will be hard, but why not trying? What do people here think the article needs to get there? Give your suggestions... Cheers --Serte * Talk * Contribs 18:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Well done all. For FA - if we're looking to make this a really good article - the quality of the references needs to be improved. We've had discussions above about some of the news articles we've used where the reporting is perhaps not of a particularly high quality. While I believe we've accurately addressed the subject, a featured article ought really to be drawn from the best sources. A quick search of Amazon shows that there is plenty of material available.....it's just getting hold of it! 4u1e 11:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Well done! Agree, for FA, references from books are more reliable than simply from the internet. --Cyktsui 12:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Whilst it's true most books are reliable, books written by respected F1 journalists are the ultimate source. Alexj2002 23:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Those are the ones I meant - for this case, any of the more respectable biographies and the Autocourse season summaries would do very well. I've got some of the latter now, so I suppose I should employ them, but I don't have any books speicfically on Schumacher (I think The Piranha Club is probably a good ref for Schumacher's transfer from Jordan to Benetton, by the way). 4u1e

Now we should look for what improvement is required to make it a FA, any suggestions? --Cyktsui 12:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Benetton wasn't the best in 1994?

This statement in the article needs proofs. Actually Schumi won both titles and in 1995 Benetton won teams' championship too. How come can Benetton still be inferior to Williams? In my opinion Benetton was clearly better than Williams in 1994 and 1995 and statistics show this.

The only claim I found of that is the one on 1995 and for that...

From the Formula 1 Official Website here "Some in the Williams team thought he should have done better in what was the best car and Schumacher suggested he was a second-rate driver." If it says on the official site...--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 22:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Article says "During these two championship seasons, the Benetton was not the best car in the field"

First off, some observations: Michael Schumacher took 8 wins and 92 points in 1994. Jos Verstappen took just 10 points and only two podiums. He's considered a fair driver and yes, he was inexperienced and had some bad luck, but it doesn't seem that the Benetton was the car to have (compare Damon Hill's perhaps somewhat similar position in 1993, when he won three races in the Williams in his debut season).

Verstappen did only ten races - that was ten points from only three finishes. Driven by Wendlinger and Verstappen, the second Benetton scored points every time it finished. Hardly uncompetitive? -- Ian Dalziel 06:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Wendlinger? I though JJ Lehto was the other driver? Anyway - it was a perfectly good car, but we're talking about which was the best car (which is probably a fruitless exercise, actually, so I'll concede defeat shortly :D). None of the Benetton second drivers ran right at the front (to my recollection, which is not a referenceable item). Both Hill and Coulthard, a rookie and a driver in his second season only, were competitive with Schumacher later in the season, in the Williams, so we could infer that the Williams was a better car. All WP:OR of course, I'm just trying to establish that it is worth looking for something we can reference to support the words 'the Benetton was not the best car' for 1994. Until we do (and I haven't succeeded yet) we should probably remove the words. Cheers. 4u1e 10:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
D'oh! Of course it was Lehto - which means it did finish out of the points twice. My objection is that the phrase we have suggests that it was consistently inferior - I think it was, at times at least, clearly the best car. The Williams looked to handle better, but I think much of that was down to the Benetton being developed to suit Schumacher's driving style. -- Ian Dalziel 11:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I would agree that in the early season the Benetton was a better (easier to drive) car, but I'm not at all convinced that applies over the whole season.

1995 season is actually less clear cut - Johnny Herbert took two wins in the sister Benetton - but we have a reference for that one.

However, that's my view and therefore not much use to us here. What we need is references for 1994, I'll get back to you..... 4u1e 23:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

What references? Those ones that show Benetton was inferior? At least Schumi's Benetton was better in most of the season. Remember, he won either the first and the last race of the season. And still some say Benetton was slower. I thought there is no place for biased attitude in Wikipedia. Let me give you some stats I've collected.

Poles: 2001 - 11; 2000 - 9; 2004 - 8; 2002 - 7; 1994 - 6

Average positions: 2001 - 1,71; 1994 - 1,79

Average gaps: 1994 - -0,06%; 2001 - -0,01%


Fastest laps: 2004 - 10; 1994 - 8

Average positions: 1994 - 1,50; 2004 - 1,56

Average gaps: 1994 - -0,20%; 2004 - -0,12%


Victories: 2004 - 13; 2002 - 11; 1995 - 9; 2000 - 9; 2001 - 9; 1994 - 8

Average positions per classified race: 1994 - 1,20; 2002 - 1,41

Race distace in the lead: 2004 - 61,41%; 2002 - 53,72%; 1994 - 52,27%


And remember, in 1994 Schuey took part in only 14 races.

My point is that although the combination of Schumacher and the Benetton B194 was the best, that may not have been 100% down to the car. Schumacher was a supremely talented driver and there's something odd about the fact that Benetton couldn't get either of their other drivers competitive in the car. I take it the point of the stats is to emphasise that the Schumi/Benetton combination in 1994 performed as well at the Schumi/Ferrari combination in 2004? Excellent point, but if we compare Barrichello and Lehto/Verstappen in 1994 we get a very different picture. In the second half of the 1994 season you could argue that the Williams was a better car. Having said that, neither your nor my arguments are exactly the point: I haven't found a decent reference that supports the Benetton not being the best car, so we probably need to revise the words. Cheers. 4u1e 10:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


Can you give any references or proofs that show thar Benetton wasn't the best in the second half of the season? Schumi won the last race either, and combined with the stats given by me, isnt't this enough? And for me, it's quite strange that the car's performance is deduced from a second driver. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.196.132.214 (talk • contribs).

If you think a little, you'll find it's not strange. Why are you just comparing a car using one driver instead of comparing both drivers? Schumacher did very well in both Bennetton and Ferrari, but his teammates did complete opposite results. How do you explain that? That Bennetton was a worse car, but Schumacher's talent guaranteed a WC title. I think that's the point made by 4u1e.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 21:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I explain that with inequal treatment in the team. Losses almost 2 second per lap are not normal. Was Lotus 1986 sixth best because Dumfries lost to Senna in qualis and fastest laps by oves 3 seconds, for example?
And why do you think Schumacher is the only talented driver in F1? If someone has often best car, ther's no difficulty in collecting victories and titles. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.196.132.214 (talk • contribs).
I probably haven't been clear enough: Although I think that I have supported a case for continuing to look for a reference for Benetton not being outright 'the best' car in 1994, I have conceded that I don't currently have such a reference. I agree that the wording should currently only say that the Benetton wasn't the best in 1995, because we do have a ref for that. I think the current version does this, unless 88.196.132.214 can still see a problem?
Having got that out of the way, one counter to 88.196.132.214's point about team mates is that in the two races (Italy and Portugal) which Schumacher did not contest in 1994, where inequal treatment should not have been an issue, neither of the Benetton drivers was competitive.
Re Lotus in 1986, there clearly was unequal treatment in the team that year. The story goes that Senna vetoed having Derek Warwick as his team mate because he didn't feel the team could support two top level drivers. I'm not sure that applies to Benetton, certainly not in the two races I mentioned above. A top team being unable to support two drivers is less convincing in the mid 1990s, which was the problem with Lotus in the mid 1980s. A top team favouring one driver for the championship is very plausible, but not to the degree that it would have to be at Benetton, where the second drivers were so uncompetitive that they took no points off Hill during the season, which would have made Schumacher's win far easier. And certainly it would be true that Senna flattered the Lotus in 86 - it wasn't as good a car as he made it look. 4u1e 18:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


I think it's Benetton's second drivers' problem if they are unable to achieve victories with such a good packet. But as statistics and results show, at least the car in the hands of Schumacher was better than Williams. It's also no secret that Schumi's teammates were treated less good than he himself. You say that in the event of 1994, we should consider Schu/Ben packet. But why don't you do this in the case of 2001, 2002 and 2004 too when he had clearly better equipment? How come can stats about those seasons be even weaker than 1994? As for 1995 I probably agree that B was not as good as Williams. Hadn't Hill retired so many times because of driver errors, he would have gotten the title.


The Williams being a better car in 94-95 is a false story cooked up by Schumacher fans to give a note of credibility to a life which lacks it.

The article didn't say that the Williams was the best car. I'd be quite happy for it to say that the Benetton was not clearly superior - it wasn't, but I don't believe the Williams was either. -- Ian Dalziel 17:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro too long?

It's my opinion that, if this article is to get FA status, the intro has to be shortened. I think it's just too long at the moment to become FA, so I propose to shorten it? Any objections? Manipe 21:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think 4 paragraphs is according to the guidelines and it describes the essential for someone who doesn't know him.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 21:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Information from F1 Racing magazine Schumacher Tribute Issue

There is a lot of information in this (December 2006 issue) which could be added if it won't make the article too long. I will add where appropriateThe Dunnie 03:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

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