Talk:Michael Jackson/Archive 11

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Conduct on this page: this is a warning

I would like to remind all contributors to this article and this page to please maintain a good standard of civility, even if you disagree strongly with another editor.

Furthermore, this page is not a place to express personal opinions, especially derogatory ones and even more so as this is a biography of a living person, where the bias is towards restraint. Some of the edits I have seen in the edit history are completely unacceptable, defamatory accusations, and must not recur.

This page is for discussion about material that can be used to improve the article. To that end, statements should be made with a view to following NPOV and be verifiable. These are non-negotiable policies, and persistent violation of them will be regarded as disruptive behaviour.

Feel free to contact me on my talk page if you wish, and if there is anything you want to bring to my attention, please provide diffs. (ask if you're unsure about how to do so).

Thank you and I urge you to strive for a good level of co-operation with fellow editors to increase the standard of this important article, which obviously generates a lot of passion.

Tyrenius 03:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Verification: this is a warning

It is particularly important when there is contention that all material is meticulously referenced. Please study the policy VERIFY on this and do not put forward anything that does not follow it. Likewise personal opinions should be kept out of the argument. Stick to a NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. The third non-negotiable policy is NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH.

Continued violation of these policies can lead to being blocked.

Tyrenius 13:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

New additions in the intro

I have added some more information to highlight the stature and importance of Michael Jackson, something that I think this article has done a relatively poor job at. A user informed me that previous consensus decided not to use nicknames, but I just want to point out that these are not nicknames. A nickname would be something like "Wacko Jacko," not the "best-selling artist of all time," which is more like a descriptive term. Hope that clarifies the issue.UberCryxic 22:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether you call them "labels" or "nicknames" or descriptors or whatever is irrelevant. After many months debating and arguing, the consensus reached on this talk page was strongly against including this information in the introduction. I have removed it. Please do not re-insert it. There is no consensus for your edits and the last person who carried on about this was blocked for four weeks. Thanks, Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Although terms such as "Wacko Jacko" some of you may consider to be damaging to Mr.Jackson, can one help but realize it is true? How can one support a man who could committ such horrible acts. He may have been found not guilty, but what jury member or judge could sent the "King of Pop" to jail. The evidence of the sexual molestation charges was overwhelming, but greatly ignored by the court. Try and convince yourself all you want that our beloved Michael is a harmless man, because we all know he isn't. I found it appaling that people stood outside the court room supporting Michael. This is children we are talking about, these children's lives have been scarred for life, and yet we have these insane fans who think he is a civil man. Civil is not a term to be used with Michael. To be accurate with the behaviors of the "King of Pop" I'd use a name such as Derranged Pervert, which honestly describes Mr.Jackson. Why would one spend millions upon millions of dollars on a place that would attract children to his home. Obviously, Michael has fooled you all, and I am sorry to the families he has hurt that they have to endure these fans saying Michael is innocent. Put you, or your child in that place, and then tell me that you still support that monster of a man.

Not to start a war here or anything, but for one to see that "the evidence of child molestation was overwhelming" is quite ridiculous. The trial was not televised, and the evidence not shown to the public. How one could say it was overwhelming is beyond me. Oh and don't forget to sign your posts. :: ehmjay 22:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

PICTURE!!!

This picture does not represent Michael Jackson in a good way. Why isn't there a more recent picture of him? This was in the 80's.. We are now in 2006, coming into 07 soon! Can you not change it? I think it is disrepectful..—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.154.143.135 (talk)

We have to use the one thats up because of the Wikirules regarding Public Domain photos. :: ehmjay 22:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you should take photos of "the gloved one" then. -I'll bring the food 06:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Genres

I note a slight edit war on this. Please note all genres must be based on sources. EG: www.allmusic.com. His genre is simply R&B. It's his style which is new jack swing, pop, pop/rock etc. The article should be altered to reflect that. -I'll bring the food 06:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Apparently new jack swing is also a subgenre, not a style of R&B. Curently the situation is confused on this issue and discussion is going on regarding it at the infobox template page. However the genre column should be generalised, there is a consensus on that. R&B not New jack swing, or Pop-rock etc.--I'll bring the food 19:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
It's a fair point, but I think that MJ has done a lot of different styles of music. His main genre is R&B, though, and plus it's sourced so I think it'd be best to leave the genre.--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 11:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Arniep

Sorry for the community announcement, but since Arniep was fairly active here (mostly edit warring) for a long time, I thought I should let the page know that he has been indefinitely banned. He was running sockpuppets as well as edit warring, trolling, stalking and harassing users. I don't think any of his socks had an impact on our consensus discussions, but please keep this in mind when reviewing old discussions. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 16:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Which leaves me slightly concerned about the images he was pressing us to use. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 16:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Which images are you referring to?--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs)
Those two new ones that he edit warred over and kept adding the other guy's username to the caption. It's probably okay, it's just that he seems to have been the one who uploaded them. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 17:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
They're fine, I was the one who removed and the dude who took them has made some comments so he's fine with it.--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 18:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I see your position, Sarah (if you don't mind me calling you that) but as the saying goes, if Hitler said 2+2 is 4 it is still 4 even though hitler said it. I have checked Arniep's edits previously and they were indeed correctly attributed by license and author. He was however mistaken over the level of attribution to author required.--88.105.105.151 21:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
this is from me, it keeps signing me out as i'm currently defragging the hard disk and that wipes the cookies out (on my defrag program anyway)--I'll bring the food 21:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but that is total nonsense. The only sockpuppets I used were after I was "community banned" to add images which I had already uploaded to commons- I never used any to support my own position. It is a matter of debate over whether Creative Commons images should be attributed on the page on which they are displayed as the legal code specifically states they should be attributed as long as reasonably possible and there is no reasonable reason why three words attributing an image cannot be put in the caption. 212.84.104.188 03:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
That's a fair point and I don't think anyone will disagree on the face of it. But, I think we should see what feedback we get from the GA nomination--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 11:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

POV additions to lead

DenisRS repeatedly adds:

(being raised among other nine children of different ages and two adults in just couple of bedrooms, Jackson insisted that there is nothing controversial in his doings, and that he never invited or asked any children to stay with him, and that parents had to make the approval)

after the statement:

His frequently held sleepover parties received disparaging media coverage after it was revealed that children frequently shared his bed or bedroom

The question is do we want something like this in the intro?--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 10:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I, personally, would support anything that is sourced and isn't in brackets--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 10:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Also the comment on Steve Irwin's page is totally different; the reader may not know anthing about the so-called "baby dangling" incident. (Plus that comment isn't sourced either)--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 11:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Eh, I think it's just going to look stupid as sharing a room as a kid is something lots of people have done, but most (I'd say 99.9999999 %) don't have little children coming for sleepovers. Arniep 11:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually Jackson said to the mother of Jordie Chandler that sleeping with kids is not unnatural and she had just been conditioned to believe that it was wrong. So when the quote above says "he never invited or asked any children to stay with him" it doesn't look like he tried his best to discourage the sleepovers either. So, if we're going to include the statement at the top we'll have to include a few other ones like the above. Arniep 11:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Denis is trying to add that to the introduction? Something similar might be okay in the section of the biography where the sleepovers are discussed if it NPOV and properly referenced, but I definitely don't think it is appropriate to paste it into the introduction. It also needs to be written properly as that text is ungrammatical and the language is simply not up to standard. I agree with Ashadeofgrey that it needs to be properly sourced (and not in brackets). I don't think the Steve Irwin article supports the edit Denis is trying to make, though. The section in the Irwin article where Steve defends taking his son with him while the feeding the croc (I presume that is what Denis is referring to) is in section 3.3, a long way from the introduction. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 14:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with Sarah Ewart on this one. I really don't see the reasoning for having this in the "introduction". Somewhere else in the article perhaps, but it certainly holds no validity for the "introduction". Also - I think it would be a little hard to get reliable sources to cite for all this information. But who knows? :: ehmjay 14:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I've removed this from the intro so many times myself. Well done to ashadeofgrey for bringing it up.--I'll bring the food 19:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Well:
1) How come there is information on media's attitude towards matter of sleepovers in "Introduction" section, when it is even not fact of Jackson's biography? It not what Jackson did.
2) And, simultaneously, how is that -- while item #1 is in there -- some of you tell that addition of Jackson's explanatatory information does not belong to "Introduction" section?
3) what exactly is unsourced? Both Bashir interview, as well as Private Home Movies interview and other all cited as sources.
4) since when object's own information on critical to his/her biography became "POV" (as something "questionable under Wikipedia policy)?
5) how come Steve Irwin's article has explanatory information on his incident with 'feeding crocodiles with babies' and here the same thing, all of sudden, is not allowed? Again: try go to Steve Irwin's page and "purify" things there.
So, if anyone wants Jackson's explanatory information to be not in the "Introduction", but anywhere lower, then it has to be moved along with the mention of sleepovers/critique. In fact, the bringing the subject of sleepovers with related/non-related children in *** "Introduction" *** section is POV itself and I will move it lower along with Jackson's explanatory information. DenisRS 20:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Additionally: by the way, Jackson's production company, along with Epic Records (Sony-BMG) made a major audit recently. It became known today that Thriller's sales reached 104 million worldwide, and Guinness made certificate for that (photos available with Jackson and a row of his certificates). Details are not available, so the fact is that and information should be updated. DenisRS 20:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, don't change any stats on Thriller unless you're sourcing it. Secondly, don't change anything until a consensus has been met. Thirdly - and I'm a big fan of Michael Jackson - I think it should be included. This is because if you ask anyone to name something biographical about him they'll mention that and secondly WP:LEAD says to"include criticism if there has been significant, notable criticism." and "The relative weight given to points in the lead should reflect the relative weight given to each in the remainder of the article."--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 20:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
There isn't any point in using a non-featured article (Steve Irwin's) as an example.--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 20:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I did not yet change Thriller sales, secondly, secondly, You failed to address #2, #3, #4 items of my list. Addressing Irwin's matter, You did not provide reason why all of sudden explanatory information should by hidden for readers.
I agree to not include the discussed addition, but only if the whole paragraph will be withheld from the "Introduction" section and placed here until "consensus" reached:

From 1988 to 2005, Jackson lived on his Neverland Ranch property, on which he built an amusement park and private zoo for economically disadvantaged and terminally ill children. His frequently held sleepover parties received disparaging media coverage after it was revealed that children frequently shared his bed or bedroom. These occurrences came to light first when he was accused of child sexual abuse in 1993. His sleepover parties were brought into the spotlight again in 2003 during the infamous Living with Michael Jackson TV Documentary. This resulted in Jackson being tried and later acquitted of more child molestation allegations and several other charges in 2005.

DenisRS 21:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

for #2, "The relative weight given to points in the lead should reflect the relative weight given to each in the remainder of the article."; there is barely any mention of that in the article and so it shouldn't be there. for #4, your edits were POV. for #3, I've not seen the Bashir interview and I can't remember Private Home Movies mentioning that the reason why he thinks its OK to share his bed with children is because he did with his own relatives when he was younger. And I can't see why he would mention that--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 22:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
And don't remove any content without reason, you should by now have gotten blocked for violating the WP:3RR rule and a warning for blanking content. thanks --Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 22:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Bogus Muslim categories

Why are the categories "Muslim converts" and "Muslim musicians" on the article? AnonMoos 03:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Because there were rumours Jackson had converted...of course there is no evidence to prove this is the case and they should be removed. Anyone care to do so? :: ehmjay 04:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

U.S and U.K No.1s?

Wouldn't it be better if the list at the bottom just contained U.S Billboards no.1s and U.K Singles Charts No.1s, without the U.S R&B Chart positions? I think it should be official no.1 singles rather than other charts, otherwise we could include things like the U.K Dance chart and stuff like that. It would make the list better in my opinion. 81.153.14.178 12:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Mosque

Michael Jackson did not build a Mosque in Bahrain!! The article that is cited says he "pleged to" and even that was a rumor...There is no mosuqe in Bahrain that was comissioned by Michael jackson. Please correct this AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lashonda (talk • contribs).

Audio clips on this Michael Jackson page - some questions

Dear Wikipedians: It's great to have these audio clips of Michael's songs on this Wiki -- helps the uninitiated learn more about how Michael's sound is like. I have a question with regard to the uploading of these sound clips: did you guys just make 30-second .ogg files of Michael's songs and upload it directly? Did you have to request permission from record companies etc.? What sort of licensing option did you select when uploading of these files on Wikipedia? Would appreciate you guys enlightening me on this since I would like to upload some audio samples of the songs of a another musician, Ilaiyaraaja. Thanking you, AppleJuggler 03:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

license to pick is music sample, no bigger than 30 secs, must be lower quality than cd (128 k will be fine).--I'll bring the food 21:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

AppleJuggler, you can find the guidelines for using audio samples at Wikipedia:Music samples. Basically the maximum length is whichever is shorter: 30 seconds or 10% of the full length and the quality must be less than the original. The licensing is {{Music sample}}. No, you don't have to request permission from the record company (shorter of 10%/30 secs and reduced quality falls under fair use). Sarah Ewart (Talk) 01:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Even though this is kinda off topic can someone help the new list of best-selling remix albums worldwide with its structure. Blood on the dance floor is Number One.

Children?

Why is there not a more detailed section on his children? I can't personally claim to know much about them, but someone here has to...

Well Jackson has tried to protect his children for the most part - so the only stuff we really know is their Birthday's and their names... someone MIGHT know more, but I doubt it. :: ehmjay 16:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

"He is the most successful entertainer of all time with estimated worldwide sales of 750 million."

This statement is not correct, and once again, it is due to a source reporting incorrectly. Jackson was presented with an award for 'Most successful entertainer of all time' but this in no way relates to his overall album sales. The award was given for most sales/earnings achieved in one year. This source suggests that Jackson is in fact the biggest seller of all time, whereas even if selling 750m (no evidence - just his PR said this), he is below the sales of many artists. Therefore can this comment be removed. Reminder, Wikipedia is on 'facts', not saying one source is the truth. 60.234.242.196 23:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The above statement is not correct. I have stated that 'The award was given for most sales/earnings achieved in one year.'. Jackson of course was awarded a separate world record for this. He received the award 'Most successful entertainer of all time' from Guinness World Records, but without reference to why. Apologies for any confusion 60.234.242.196 22:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, in living people's biographies, "WIKIPEDIA IS BASED ON VERIFIABLE SOURCES, NOT FACTS." Please read the guidelines on this, they are explicit. I note i'm not shouting at you, just trying to make it clear.--I'll bring the food 16:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, The 5 pillars of wiki states 'accuracy' required. Wiki also states that information 'should be researched' and that 'reliable sources' are used. The statement used (and reversed) states it as fact (did not say 'claimed to be', 'reported as' etc.) New comment does. I did not edit the article but disputed it (as per wiki policy). I am also not a Jackson SME (Subject Matter Expert), and allow persons who believe they are to control this page. But this was clearly wrong, and no SME corrected it, in fact they added it. This has happened several times on this page, and is best described as selective editing. The problem is that such erroneous comments have an impact on other pages in wiki too, which we have to clean up. Also putting non credible comments on a page causes greater vandalism, from normally persons who get irritated by the bogus details being portrayed as fact. And yes, you were shouting. 60.234.242.196 19:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
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