Talk:Michael Jackson

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Contents

[edit] Some thoughts from a fan

Okay, I'm completely new to Wiki so go easy on me. First off, interesting debate here and much more civilised than any MJ message boards! But I do think there's a lot of insider MJ missing from this encyclopedia write-up. I wish more of the message board people would come here and help out. Here are a few notes for now:

This write-up is extremely unbalanced, not in terms of fact/opinion but in the weight that's given to the last 5 or 6 six years versus his earlier career. Obviously, writers have more fresh facts/data for this time period, but it's unfair to lump Thriller into a 10-year period and then give a special section to a 2-year period involving the Bashir video.

Here's how I'd divide this write-up to make it more encyclopedic. I'll give categories here with a few notes on things that might be changed/added:

"Early life and career: 1966 – 1981" Make end of title 1981 not 1980. You could even divide into "Early life and the Jackson 5: 1966 - 1975" and "The Jacksons and Going Solo: 1976 - 1981." Section needs some work. Where are all the details about the Jackson 5 and Jacksons? It's strange that we get a petty exchange between MJ and Gloria Allred (under "Berlin and Bashir"), but no real details or quotes here. Relationship between MJ and Berry Gordy (his second Dad), fact that MJ recorded so much and "missed out on his childhood" (common theme in later interviews), alleged abuse from father, blossoming dance talent, appearance in "Free to Be You And Me" video, robot dance move, Ed Sullivan appearance (!), more hits from Jacksons including "Shake Your Body (Down To The Ground)", emergence of MJ as songwriter on songs such as "Blues Away" (first solo writing credit, off The Jacksons) and "Heartbreak Hotel" (off Triumph) and "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" and "Working Day and Night" (on Off the Wall). There's a lot to add here.

"The Thriller Era: 1982 - 1985" I'd make this a separate section. This is the era that defined his career and changed pop music! It's missing a lot of details; again, why do we get so many details from Bashir video and zero quotes from this era?! Motown 25 performance at the very least needs some beefing up. This was considered a revolution when it aired. Maybe add anecdote about Fred Astaire calling up MJ the next day and telling him he was a "hell of a mover." Maybe some quotes from MJ about the album, what he wanted to do with it? Maybe notes on impact of Thriller video (on other artists, commonly mimicked choreography, etc.), fact that he brought Emmanuelle Lewis and Brooke Shields to the Grammy Awards, fact that he started jogging with the military and wearing some crazy military garb. So much to add, so little of it here!

"More Success and Controversy: 1986 - 1992" This would be a new section, possibly with a different title. Maybe "Bad and Dangerous: 1986-1992"? Seems cumbersome to list the album titles, but that's really the best way to chart his career. This section needs a mention of the fact that the National Inquirer claims MJ *gave them* the pictures of the hyperbaric chamber and told them to print it with the word "Weird" in the headline, meaning MJ wanted some "weird" tabloid coverage and toyed with the tabloids for a bit, though it obviously got out of hand. I've seen this mentioned in several biographies and (I think) the show 60 minutes. No mention of film Moonwalker?! Also mention fact that Oprah interview was a major television event, over 50 million viewers, I believe. Dangerous album gets majorly shortchanged here. And "which was accompanied by a controversial music video featuring scenes of a sexual nature, violence and racism" is weak; the controversial part was the dance sequence at the *end* of the video, and there was no "racism" just some KKK graffiti on a window that he angrily smashes (though I don't believe that was in original version). Should also mention morphing technology used in video, which was groundbreaking at the time.

"First Allegations and Aftermath: 1993 - 2001" If later sections are going to be really specific, this needs to be a separate section. Really, the allegations defined this era; all his music is a reaction to it, both HIStory and Blood on the Dancefloor. Lots of angry, weird music. And what about all the crazy promotion for the HIStory album?! He floated a statue of himself down the Thames, for crying out loud, and the promo video is totally over the top propaganda (in a fabulous way, IMO). Also, re: "Jew me, sue me" lyrics, I don't think this is encyclopedic because it gives a one-sided version. MJ has said "I was using myself as the victim" and identifying with the persecution of Jews or something to that effect; in other words, he's saying "Jew me" (or, persecute me the way the Jews were persecuted), and then he says "sue me" because...it rhymes. It's breathtakingly naive, but this is what he claims. Worth noting. For Invincible, you might note the efforts to bring MJ back to his earlier Off the Wall sound on a few songs like "Butterflies." It's also noteworthy that he *finally* started singing songs about relationships again and stopped singing about 1993 allegations. This section is missing Madison Square Garden 30th Anniversary shows, on 9/7 and 9/10/01 (a wealth of freakshow details, also noteworthy for pairing him with Liza and producer David Gest, and MJ was later Best Man at their crazy wedding). Might also note that MJ fled NYC after 9/11, and Corey Feldman claims he didn't offer him a ride in his limo, causing a rift in their friendship (petty detail?).

Okay, I think rest of the sections can keep their titles, but the trial section needs beefing up! So many details worth adding there, including fact that E! re-enacted the trial scenes daily, tabloid coverage, snazzy Mr. Blackwell-approved outfits daily, pajama mishap, reports of physical/mental deterioation, anticipation of the verdict; really, in my mind, the frenzy over the trial is eerily almost as fervid as frenzy during Thriller era, like a counterbalance to his career. Not an encyclopedic theory, but worth noting for context.

That's all for now. Sorry to take up so much space. Feel free to comment, edit, delete, whichever. I'll be back to make some comments to the main text if people like my ideas. --Steverino 05:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you Steverino, this article needs beefing up. Aeneiden-Rex 07:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I think u should change the article the way u've written here, it's good.Aeneiden-Rex 14:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree entirely. In all truthfulness, Jackson's career and height of popularity was in the earlier years and those sections should be far larger than the sections regarding recent controversies. There needs to be some work done. But the problem is if Jackson fans make any changes trying to ballance the early years non-Jackson fans tend to call it POV. If the controversies are made larger the Jackson fans get upset and then wars start and nothing gets done. I feel that fact is more important than rumours and possibilities. I'm not saying the controversies do not belong - but this article needs more about Jackson's career not his private/social life - he is afterall an entertainer. :: ehmjay 18:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I actually disagree a bit and think that it's acceptable to list the controversies in detail. It's part of his legacy, whether fans like it or not. I believe more than 50 million people watched the announcement of the trial verdict, which is about the number of people who have bought the Thriller album (and same number who watched Oprah interview!). So I think the career and the controversy should balance each other out similarly in this article. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that huge chunks of career are done in a few paragraphs whereas the last few years are picked apart year by year. I'll go into the article and edit a bit if I have some time this weekend. 12.149.50.2 22:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh I totally agree that the controversies are nescicary to the article, however as you said, I do not think that they should be the largest section or that is to say they should be balanced out. They are an important part of Jackson's life however so is the music. :: ehmjay 03:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The controversies should be listed, but not too long. It gets boring and most of it is pretty much heresay anyway. Snowbound 12:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The controversies have by far surpassed and ended his music career, which is why he's bankrupt and living in exile.

I think what ehmjay says is right about people will claim POV is being used. However, personally I think Jackson had a great music career, and this should be described in great detail, but the controversies have indeed changed the way we view this man. I think his controversies have sadly overshadowed and blighted a great career.Littlepaulscholes 23:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Steverino. I think there should be more rigour and accuracy in the redaction of this article pretending for wikipedia (remember that it can be viewed by millions of people!). And it is nice to adorn the text with references, but they should be used more precisely, as for example in the case of the videoclip Black or White:

In November 1991, Michael Jackson released Dangerous. The major hit from Dangerous was "Black or White". The single was accompanied by a controversial video which featured scenes of a sexual nature as well as violence and racism. The video was banned on most music-television channels until these scenes were removed.[31]

Personally I think this redaction leads to negative misunderstanding. If you go to reference [31], you will find a text stating that the controverse arised from the somewhat violent and sexual scenes in the videoclip, as anyone would also slightly agree to by watching them. However in the article for wikipedia, these aspects are undelicately juxtaposed with "racism".

Another example of unprecision or lack of information leading to prejudice is the description of the whitening of the skin of Michael Jackson. Where can the reader find in the corresponding paragraph (see "1987-1990: Bad and controversies"...) a reference to the official claim by Michael Jackson that he is affected by the vitiligo? This skin condition affects at least one in every hundred people in countries throughout the world Vitiligo Society UK. There are also some photos of Michael Jackson in the 80's-90's where his hands appear with the typical heterogen brown patches on white skin.

Finally the article focuses too much not only on controversial "facts", but also on financial aspects. As far as I know, Michael Jackson is a recognized musician and a person with humanitarian thoughts and actions, even if these aspects are not covered by some parts of the media. I wish the redactor to take more care in this article. 83.59.24.28 16:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] King of Pop

I believe that there should be a reference in the starting sentence of the article to Jackson's fan name "The King of Pop". I THINK that this has been discussed before, but that was a LONG time ago and I wasn't involved in that. Below I will provide evidence as to why I believe a reference should be added.

1) Other articles with common media/fan-dubbed names:

  • Elvis Presley has an extensive 17 words explaining various naming conventions
  • Steve McQueen's nickname 'The King of Cool' is given

2) When you type "King of Pop" into Google, the first FIFTEEN hits (the entire first page and half the second) solely relate to Michael Jackson, proving that this nickname is in no way 'unused' or 'rare', but is in fact very much alive and well.

3) In front of THOUSANDS of fans in Tokyo, Michael Jackson is not only named the 'King of Pop', but also the 'King of Pop, Rock and Soul'. Here's the link [1]

4) On CNN.com, when "The King of Pop" is typed into search under a Cnn.com search, there are more than 50 pages related to Michael Jackson directly. The link is here, [2], and it proves that "The King of Pop" is a label still used by the INTERNATIONAL MEDIA when discussing Jackson, and it is used quite frequently. This is no minority fan name. This is a name that is wide spread.

5) In terms of foreign language wikipedias, the following have the nickname 'The King of Pop' in the introduction (I'll put the links here so that you all don't accuse me of lying):

  • Spanish Wikipedia [3]
  • French Wikipedia [4]
  • German Wikipedia [5]
  • Swedish Wikipedia [6]

The 2nd largest language by distribution in the world, French, gives the nickname. German, also a widespread language, gives the nickname. Spanish, still widely spoken in Mediterranean areas as well as foreign communities, gives the nickname. And Swedish Wikipedia, a language abundant in the Nordic countries and Scandinavia, gives the nickname. Obviously it is widespread. If anyone thinks it is not, look at the proof (use Bable Fish Translation if unsure of the languages).

I will be adding more evidence as time passes, as I'm sure many here will be quick to crucify my opinions. --Paaerduag 10:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I swear this page is going back to like it was back in november 2004.--I'll bring the food 20:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Can people just stop digging their noses in the past and actually bother to read the evidence, not just blatantly accuse me of stirring up trouble? Read the evidence at LEAST, for God's sake. It is really quite clever what some people here are doing; they are refusing to even COMMENT on this post, therefore making me unable to change ANYTHING, and therefore keeping the nick name out of the title. Clever, but unless you can tell me why we shouldn't have the title in here WITH ALL THE EVIDENCE I HAVE PROVIDED, I don't see why I shouldn't just put it in. --Paaerduag 02:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you reach consensus first before overriding an already agreed consensus. As it already stands it was decided to remove BOTH well used nicknames, ie. King of Pop and Wacko Jacko. If you want to re-add one, you will have to be prepared to add the other as AGREED by consensus of all involved parties in this artcle. I have removed KOP until such time a FRESH consensus is agreed, this is per Wikipedia policy. -- Funky Monkey  (talk)  08:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Ditto Funky Monkey. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 01:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Funky Monkey, I agree we should wait until there is a concensus before we add it into the article, but Paaerduag does make some good points. Perhaps it's time we discuss it again? After all, that is the point of this discussion section. :: ehmjay 10:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Both nicknames by which he has been known are fully covered in the article. Frankly, putting KoP in the lead 'graph only serves, it seems to me, to make the days in which it was apt seem very long ago indeed. Robertissimo 10:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
It is absolutely fine to discuss this issue, but it is absolutely not fine for Paaerduag to try to independently overrule the consensus and insert words which have been very contentious and were removed after an agreement was reached during a very, very long debate. Paaerduag needs to negotiate a new consensus if he wants to put the nicknames back in, instead of acting on his own and ignoring the existing one. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 11:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree Sarah. I hadn't realized he had gone and made any changes - which I agree was not a good idea to do before we had discussed it. Anyways - I agree that it is a change worth looking into - but not entirely needed. Either way, I'd love to discuss it (in a calm and reasonable manner).:: ehmjay 18:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let me clear something up. I knew full well that what I was doing was wrong, and NOW I regret it in part. This is because people were simply ignoring my comments, and that is how they were effectively blocking my opinions (shared by others) out. This really frustrated me, and I apologize for my outburst. I hope that you don't hold that against me, because it was swiftly and justly reverted. Anyway, the consensus that was reached was that wacko jacko AND KoP would either both be kept or both gone. I was not aware of that until now, as I explained. Let me just say, if people are criticizing me for reopening this discussion, how can a 'consensus' ever be reached!? anyway, it is in my opinion that my next course of action is to justify why KING OF POP SHOULD STAY WHILE WACKO JACKO SHOULD NOT. I will gather evidence immediately, and add it shortly. --Paaerduag 12:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's my evidence (more will be added):

1) Not a SINGLE other-language wikipedia even MENTIONS the derogatory name Wacko Jacko, so why should it be in the introductory sentence. On the other hand, KoP is mentioned in the intro several times (read above evidence)

2) Wacko Jacko was NOT coined by the people; it was a product of media imagination, which in turn was adopted by Jackson-haters. My point, if you are wondering, is that if nicknames are truly popular shouldn't they be coined by PEOPLE? People who's jobs don't involve spinning stories, but who are ordinary and adopt a popular name. That is the case with King of Pop. It was popular, and like Elvis' 'King of Rock', was not the invention of the media. You may think this is stupid (in fact, i'm sure many here already loathe me), but I'm trying to make a point.

  • Wacko Jacko = Media invention.
  • King of Pop = Name given by the people, not influenced by the media and its spinning webs.

--Paaerduag 12:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

  1. We aren't governed or even guided by what other wikis do.
  2. Please prove that "the people" coined the term "King of Pop" and not "Wacko Jacko". And please explain the relevance of the origin of the terms. I don't think the origin of words determines their notability. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 12:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

One could have this argument indefinitely, and indeed I think a very good case could be made for exactly the reverse of Paaerduag's: "king of pop" is rather transparently a publicists' creation, one that the subject and his wranglers clung to long after it had become a faintly embarrassing reminder of better times (the photo of the star in his glory that leads off this article, after all, is more than 22 years old; older, in fact, than many of today's hitmakers). "Wacko Jacko," on the contrary, having gained currency in gossip columns and other popular media, would have faded away quickly if it had offended a substantial portion of their audience, and so might be considered as the actual "people's choice." Robertissimo 12:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

If one traces the origins of "King Of Pop", I beleive it was first used by Elizibeth Taylor when she introduced Michael Jackson at either an awards show or a performance. Now it's no secret that Taylor and Jackson are friends - however that does not mean it was coined by a publicist, nor does is mean it was coined by Taylor herself. Needles to say "Wacko Jacko" is still used, however usually by the mainstream media. I think the most compelling argument for using "King of Pop" is to look at a professional article from a reputable encyclopedia: Encyclopedia Brittanica. Here it mentions "King of Pop" and does not mention Wacko Jacko - while this is not in the introduction of the article it does give clout to the legitimacy of this name. Now, as for the image being shown on the page - that argument is moot. The reason that image is used it that it is Public Domain and the Wiki Rules state that if a public domain image exists, it must be used. There was a period where a photgraph of Jackson accepting his recent award in Japan was used. Personally I don't really care if the "King of Pop" is mentioned in the first paragraph since it is covered in the body of the article. I wouldn't mind seeing it there, however I also don't mind if it's not. I do however think that Wacko Jacko has no place in the opening paragraph whether KoP is there or not. That's just my opinion however. :: ehmjay 23:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As I can't edit below I will confirm that in no possible was has Michael Jackson sold over 60- million copies of thriller. The Guinnes book of records says 48 million, while the most says 52 million. As Michael's biggest fan you must really want it to be true, but it's rubbish, sorry.

[edit] Thriller sales

[edit] Worldwide sales of Thriller

I would like to know if this source confirming that Thriller has sold approximately 60 million copies is appropriate for the article. It is a news article from BBC here is the link.[7]--Stardust6000 02:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes, to me BBC seems like a pretty credible source. However I'm sure others will argue No, and will want to continue to use the out of date, inaccurate Guinness number (let me remind everyone that Guinness is not always correct, seeing as they have the run-time of the Thriller video incorrect, and Jackson made 2 other videos that were longer than Thriller, yet it's still credited as the "Longest Music Video") :: ehmjay 15:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
The BBC is fine to use as a source. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you both so much for your replies, I'll add this to the article now. Take care for now.--Stardust6000 00:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This is getting silly, Thriller according to most sources I've read are somewhere around 50 million, these sources include actual recorded figures of album sales. BBC is hardly a reliable source for gathering record sales data, it is just a rough estimate. Lets stop exaggerating, Thriller sold so many it hardly seems worth exaggerating it more. 81.156.67.125 00:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well someone has already confirmed that BBC is a fine source. And most sources people use are the Guiness source - most people who reference are using it as their reference (be it any other articles). The fact is the guiness number is out of date and wrong. Stick with the BBC source. :: ehmjay 02:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The BBC are not only extremely reliable but their figure is also the most up-to-date.--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 19:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
81.156.67.125: under our guidelines, the BBC is considered a reliable source and we may use it as a reference for verifiying information. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 14:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm only stating there are better sources which pay closer attention to the actual figures. BBC is just an estimate, it is in no way accurate. I suppose whatever I say it will stay there because people will want it to seem Thriller sold as many as possible. Most sites Ive read put the figure at around 50 million, I hardly think the album has sold another 10 million in the time before BBC wrote the article. Ehmjay, I have a great respect for the work you have done on this article as it has not been easy I imagine with all the vandalism but I feel your now including unaccurate information which is a shame.81.152.225.36 18:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

There is one link (BBC) that mentions 60m (excluding the MJ fansite), and all others, like Rock n Roll Hall of Fame, World Music Awards, specify 50m+. BBC is a credible source most of the time, but also can be a non-credible source also. They recently reported Boney M selling 800 million albums. What needs to happen is weight has to be given to articles on believability. As WMA is 2006, and MJ is attending, I would consider this far more reliable.

Here is an article from fox news that confirms Thriller has sold 60 million copies worldwide. As said before the 50 million sources are using the over a decade old Guinness estimate. I think that a news source is a better indication of sales than your opinion. This fox news sources is from this year.[8]--Stardust6000 14:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

POV has clouded judgement here. If the article by BBC was so fantastically accurate, why was there not a rush to amend 'downwards' Jacksons worldwide sales that were also mentioned. The arguement was that it was not a reliable source compared to more credible links. Wikipedia is supposedly based on factual information, not one-off inaccurate links. Nor are fan sites reliable as they push up figures. If I were to write a fan site on Sid Vicious and claim he said a trillion copies, does that make it right? No it says it's not credible. Also continually amending each wiki site with the data without any credible links was close to being vandelism Maggott2000 04:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well your obviously a Jackson fan and are desperate to give him more credit, the thing that is annoying is I could find hundreds of recent references that say Thriller has sold around 50 million, but just because you have found a few links, the article is changed. Its funny because the article on the biggest selling albums of all time on wikipedia even says its 50 million. This supposed to be an encyclopedia, therefore you should use the most reliable sources, BBC is not official record of the sales, you really think BBC have done serious recording of thriller's record sales to write this article? Alaka 18:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Stats for Thriller Sales...

So Jackson has just been presented with a new certificate from the Guiness World Records... from a recent news update: "Michael received was a certificate for greatest selling album ever. The certificate itself (pictured right, click to enlarge) states the album has sold over a staggering 104 million albums worldwide since its 1982 release." So I guess that 60 million is slightly off? Should it be updated to reflect this rather LARGE number? :: ehmjay 23:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes (if you can source it) from me, and DenisRS also mentioned this but I haven't seen the source--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 00:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Please can you source this ASAP as this is impacting other pages mentioning Thriller too. There is no reference via Google nor the GWR homepage.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maggott2000 (talk • contribs).
As of right now the only sites I can find that cite this information are MJ fan sites, however I have a feeling that the Guiness site has yet to be updated...and seeing that the diamond awards are tomorrow I have a feeling we will get more sites with this info after tomorrow. In the meantime MJNI and MJSTAR (Which cites Guiness as it's source) :: ehmjay 03:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's a video of a News Clip discussing it :: ehmjay 22:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't specifically say that he's sold 104 million copies of Thriller...and neither does MJStar.co.uk--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 22:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
As mentioned above, there is no credible information that Thriller has sold 60m, yet it is kept being pushed up to this figure. The BBC article was July 2005, a few years after reaching 50m (2002). How can this be substantiated as 'fact' if one report says it. Please keep to credible stats.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maggott2000 (talk • contribs).
It is official now, I checked the guiness website, but it's weird, I can't find anything there now, but here's a link to some pic of the certificates Pics of 104 million certificateScroll down a bit and you'll see. Aeneiden-Rex 14:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It's here--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 15:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
We can't source to a picture, though. We should probably wait a while for a News source.--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 16:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we definitely need to wait until we have a reliable source. The image is not a reliable source. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 16:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
MJ, said 104 million at the WMAs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4w3ZY3PahA).--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 13:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
MTV UK--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 01:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Another MTV link that shows Thriller's 104 million units sold [9] We can go for it now. Readerweb 19:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
OMG In the photo of him holding the awards you see spots on under his finger nails. VITILIGO! It's practically proof. Can somebody sample that part of the image and upload it to changing appearance of michael jackson? It's definately fair use. It's like major PROOF!--I'll bring the food 00:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New sales figures

Ugh guys, I know Michael Jackson claimed 104 million sold for Thriller recently, but this figure is highly dubious. Furthermore, Guinness does not corroborate that at all; I believe Guinness gives a figure of 51 million or something. Right now that's the most reliable number; the real figure may be something between 50 million and 60 million, but definitely not over 100 million.UberCryxic 22:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

no it's 104 million these days. Believe me, MTV vouches. We were also all rather blown back, given the fanboys were like "it's 60 million!!!!! not 50!!!!" but i think mtv vouches for the new figure.--I'll bring the food 21:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you give me the URL or something? I'm surprised by this new figure. How can the figure be 50-60 million one moment, then suddenly shoot to 100 million? Any explanation given for the change or something (by MTV or anyone)? Also, I think in this case there are better, more reliable sources than MTV (like Guinness, which says 51 million I believe). Either way I'd like a note about why MTV changed the numbers....and so radically too.UberCryxic 21:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I did a search on Factiva and I couldn't find a single article supporting the claim that it was over 100 million. There were heaps of articles about Jackson and the Guiness records but not a single one that supported that figure. I'd want to see some pretty solid evidence before I bought it. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 21:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
He told the squealing audience, "I am greatly humbled by this award. When we created 'Thriller' my dream was for it to be the biggest selling album ever, and God has answered my prayers - 25 years later and it's sold 104 million copies. I thank God and I thank you." from [10] - good enough for me. --I'll bring the food 00:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't find an article written like a blog and containing the words "Well done, dude..." a very credible source to use as our only reference. I would be happier if we could find newspaper reports. Surely a figure that high would have been reported in the mainstream press. I don't think it should be that hard to come up with some decent sources to support that information and I think it's important that we do find some solid sources because this is obviously something that is going to be contested. Even if we accept that article, it seems that the source of this information is Michael himself. Like UberCryxic, I would like to see some independent and reliable verification of this and not just a quote from Michael. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 00:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes we're all well aware of the Michael Jackson quote. It's just not reliable. That's all I'm saying. Furthermore, there are a bonanza of other good sources that contradict MJ; these give something like 50 to 60 million.UberCryxic 01:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that Jackson may not be the most credible source, most of those sources have not been updated in years. As I posted a while back, a Press Release from MJNI (I'm awear its a fan news network...) stated the 104 million copies number before jackson made his speech. I'm not sure if it can count as a source, but it did say it. According to this source the certificate from Guiness states the 104 million copies number. [11] :: ehmjay 02:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contents

Is it possible to better organise the article. As it stands, it's not massivelly helpul.--AshadeofgreyTalk 19:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It's fine the way it is. If we organise it other than by timeline it can inject pov.--88.105.84.42 19:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC) hmm. me again.--I'll bring the food 19:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I just have to say that that is absolute hypocracy and bullshit. I mean, you don't think the article already has pov, "I'll Bring the food"? well, sorry to tell ya, but it has a hell of a lot, and guess in what form it comes? That's right, attacks against michael jackson. For example, the last paragraph is clearly bias against jackson by referring to his performance using solely negative examples. There are a dozen minor points throughout the article as well, so please, don't kid yourself and claim that this article is not already POV. This is one of the most biased, derogatory bigraphical articles I have ever read. I'm just stating fact. --Paaerduag 10:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I feel that the article can still be broken down by timeline - however it could be broken down a lot more than it already is. As for the final paragraph, I'm going to agree that it is very heavily POV as all the articles it cites talk about a "disapointing" performance. No where did they look to articles that were positive about the whole event, nor do they go into detail about the reason Jackson was actually there - not to perform but to accept an award for selling over 100 million records. :: ehmjay 11:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I didn't want an alternative to the timeline, i was wondering if we could have better section headings. And Paaerduag, it would be grately appreciated if you could list other examples of POV. Thanks.--AshadeofgreyTalk 17:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Are there any reviews of the performance that were positive, though? Could you refrain from swearing too, it's not pleasant.--I'll bring the food 21:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually quite a few. If you want I can go find some. :: ehmjay 04:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Definately! If you can add some cool quotes it's all good. TBH given how many articles I'm working on at the moment and a sock puppet discussion page I need to create I don't really have the time to research for this one, if you have free time and the will, I'd definately like you to add it.--I'll bring the food 00:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

In the References number 15, there is a wrong spelling, I should be History: 1980 not Histoty. Ericgo 02:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Promoting GA

I think the article is well structured, contains all relevant information, is well references, contains images where appropriate, and can't see any major POV controversies.

If the article is to be improved to FA, some sections would benefit from copyediting, and the article should be generally shortened (at least in my opinion and as per Wikipedia:Article size).

Some statements would also need further references, such as the estimated costs of Captain EO.

Fred-Chess 19:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

OH DEAR GOD. YAY. Finally the article is recognised for its good quality. Thankyou for acknowledging all the hard work by this article's contributors. Well done Ashadeofgrey, I don't think we would've got GA status without that massive rewrite of sources which you did single handedly. --I'll bring the food 21:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures: WATCH FOR THE VANDALISM

Image:We_Are_the_World_Jackson.jpg is incorrectly tagged. It is not created by the person who uploaded it and should be deleted immediately.--I'll bring the food 21:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thedefenceman (talk • contribs) has re-added improperly licensed images. This user does not own the copyright to it and cannot license it under the GNU. Do be more observent. One editor has even reverted back to their version.--I'll bring the food 00:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sales figures

!04 Millions... doesn´t this look a bit high?, i mean, a few weeks ago it was around the 50-60 and now it has doubled. The only country that keeps a reliable count of the record sales is the US and it has sold 27 millions there . There is pretty good correlation between the records sold in america and the records sold worldwide:

Back in Black US: 21 Worldwide 42. x2

Eagles Greatest hits US: 29 Worldwide: 51 x1.8

Led Zeppelin IV US: 23 Worldwide: ~ 35 x1.5

Shania Twain Come on Over US: 20 Worldwide: 28 x1.4

Appetite for Destruction

US: 15 Worldwide: +25 x +1.7

... Baby one more time US: 15 worldwide: 28 x 1.9

The Dark Side Of The Moon US: 15 Worldwide 40+ x 2-3

(I have avoided using double albums)

Thriller US: 27 Worldwide 104 x 3.8

Hard to believe but possible, but what is almost impossible to believe is

He has only sold 60.5 in the US and his PR claims 750 millions more that 12 times... 83.33.246.250 02:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Good research. Emphasis on the word 'claims'. However, his PR must have got the figure from 'somewhere' one assumes. I like the logical thought put into your discussion.60.234.242.196 01:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pop icon and NPOV

Including reference and link to "pop icon" status is consistent with NPOV and deserves to remain in the article. Rationale follows:

  • credible and authoritative sources routinely apply this status indicator (which is not a nickname) to this and other individuals of the same stature (see e.g., [12], [13] [14][15]);
  • NPOV states: "the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source";
  • omitting this status indicator as 'pop icon' represents a failure to include a significant viewpoint;
  • omitting this status indicator omits a link to directly relevant and related content within WP;
  • omitting this status indicator in itself may represent a POV bias, to the extent that it prevents readers unfamiliar with the subject matter from obtaining a well-rounded perspective of the subject matter of the article, and conducting further reasearch based on that perspective;
  • omitting this status indicator diminishes the contextual breadth of the article for researchers in the distant future who may not realize the scope of influence this individual has had *beyond* the realm of his musical career;
  • the term "pop icon" has no inherently prejudicial or favorable bias, no more so than the term "entertainer" (each term is subject to personal interpretation);

For these and many other reasons, it is requested that further detailed justification be presented before deleting the link and reference to "pop icon" status. Thanks! dr.ef.tymac 23:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: Follow-up proof of "being a pop icon" is distinct from proof of "routine application of a status indicator to an individual". The application of this status indicator is what is at issue *not* whether MJ is "really" a pop icon. It's exactly the same thing as the status indicator of "entertainer" ... no one needs to prove MJ is really "entertaining" (which is subject to considerable debate). Please address potential deficiencies here in discussion before further reverts or modification. Thanks! dr.ef.tymac 00:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the sources you've sited are enough evidence that it is verifiable that Jackson is indeed a "pop icon".--AshadeofgreyTalk 10:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a nonsense debate. Its like asking to debate on whether grass is green or vegetation. It is both. MJ is both. Just incorporate them both into the article as has been currently done is the best solution. 60.234.242.196 01:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
It seemed surprising (to me anyway) that anyone even complained about the addition of 'pop icon' to begin with. Nevertheless, someone did complain, and that complaint has been respectfully addressed with thorough discussion and references, hopefully to the satisfaction of the original complainant. Nothing nonsensical about sincere, respectful good-faith discussion to reconcile possibly different viewpoints. That's what its all about! Thanks! :) dr.ef.tymac 03:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm ok with the insertion but I don't agree with the position: "musician" and "entertainer" are both jobs; "pop icon" isn't.--AshadeofgreyTalk 08:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Agree. As said, comparing two 'different' characteristics. It should be incorporated into the article, but in a better structure.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.234.242.196 (talk)
And it's kind of a repeat of the statement that he is/was "at the forefront of pop culture for the last quarter-century"--AshadeofgreyTalk 08:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
If anything, I would debate that this statement stays. I would not consider Jackson at the forefront of pop culture. But that is my POV (thus irrelevant). As with the arguement on 'genre', one could argue till blue in the face and still there would be a 50/50 split on opinion. You should read the wiki page on 'pop' as a genre, if they cannot agree, then likelyhood no concensus would be correct here either. I digressed. Some careful editing, I am sure someone will find a compromise. Suggestions?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.234.242.196 (talk)
The forefront of pop culture clause was partially why I included pop icon to begin with. Even if the latter isn't a job title, it is a verifiable and well-known "status indicator". It is so well-known that it is more likely to be a meta keyword descriptor and synonym for MJ himself. The "forefront of pop culture" phrase, in contrast, is not a status indicator, could mean anything, and does not appear to be a phrase frequently associated with MJ. In fact, my informal preliminary research (Google) indicated that every single connection of the phrase to MJ is a result of this specific WP article
  • "michael jackson" "pop icon" -wikipedia ;; returns *many* different and authoritative results
  • "michael jackson" "forefront of pop culture" -wikipedia ;; returns very little, and *all* of it appears to be a copy from this specific article.
I was going to *replace* "forefront of pop culture" with "pop icon" because of this, but chose to leave both in (to avoid the "why did you take that out!" debate) and simply augment the ambiguous and isolated phrase with the more-verifiable phrase "pop icon" as a compromise. Compromise is hopefully what we have reached. Thanks! dr.ef.tymac 12:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Googling that is not a fair assessment; one is original work the other is work that can be used in many instances--AshadeofgreyTalk 12:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The rationale and meaning of your previous statement is unclear. Nevertheless, pursuant to your earlier remarks and agreement with me on verifiability, I am going to make an additional refinement to the intro section. Thanks for your contributions! dr.ef.tymac 15:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
"widely regarded" and "featured prominently" are definately POV phrases--AshadeofgreyTalk 16:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Both were taken out already, the only remaining POV vestige was "at the forefront of pop culture" which (as you stated) is redundant with "pop icon", and "pop icon" is the only one of the two that is verifiable and mutually agreed. Please discuss, thanks! :)dr.ef.tymac 17:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The editing currently done is still not a proper solution in my opinion. "... is an American musician, entertainer, and pop icon, whose successful music career and controversial personal life have been a part of pop culture for the last quarter-century." As worded, it still reads too long winded and disjointed, as well as implies that his 'controversies' are part of pop culture. It is better structured to say "Pop icon, Michael Jackson, (born ..." but assume that wanting his name first is probably a requirement. Possibly, split it into two separate sentences? "... is an American musician and entertainer whose successful musical career has been part of pop cuture for the last quarter century. Controverty in his personal life has also dogged (is that term used in the USA?)this pop icon for most of his latter career". Just a suggestion. 60.234.242.196 06:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I agree, his controversial personal life is somewhat part of pop culture; I mean there are many jokes that make reference to it and many comedianes/tv shows make reference to his personal life.--AshadeofgreyTalk 10:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
That doesn't make it pop culture. It just means Jackson is a good source for comedy :) 60.234.242.196 03:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, the current intro at this time reflects a good balance between neutrality, completeness and verifiability. The prose is also structurally and grammatically acceptable. For a controversial article like this, that seems more than adequate. dr.ef.tymac 15:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, it is good to see agreement, which is most important. I am sure it will get edited before long anyway. Discussion closed? 60.234.242.196 03:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I dunno, at the moment it seems to imply that "pop icon" is a job (with it being in a list of jobs)--AshadeofgreyTalk 08:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
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