Talk:Michael Ballack

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] See comments

	Germany Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. Comments: edit – history – watch – refresh
	This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Munich, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Munich on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project.
Germany To-do: edit  Here are some tasks you can do: Requests: Erfurt Cathedral, Hans-Ulrich Klose, Manfred Kanther, Die Feuerzangenbowle Copyedit: Kleinstaaterei, Die Räuber, Allgemeiner Deutscher Nachrichtendienst, Neu-Ulm Unreferenced: Franz Josef Jung, Limburger Dom, High German languages, Matthias Erzberger, Christmas pyramid Cleanup: Heidelberg, Bremerhaven, Centralverein deutscher Staatsbürger jüdischen Glaubens, Düsseldorf-Volmerswerth, Frankfurt Book Fair Stubs: Federal Ministry of the Interior (Germany), Heinz Erhardt, Erich Ribbeck, Kronach, Tegernsee (lake), Römisch-Germanisches Museum NPOV: Erich von Manstein, Anti-German sentiment, Willy Brandt, German Visa Affair 2005 Portal maintenance: Update News, Did you know, announcements, and suggest Selected article and picture Other: Help tag Germany-related articles with the project template and assess their quality

	The article on Michael Ballack is supported by the WikiProject on Football, which is an attempt to improve the quality and coverage of football related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page; if you have any questions about the project or the article ratings below, please consult the FAQ.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Michael Ballack is a former good article candidate. There are suggestions below for which areas need improvement to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, the article can be renominated as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review. Date of review: No date specified. Please edit template call function as follows: {{FailedGA|insert date in any format here}}

Ballack was approached by Spanish giants Real Madrid, but decided to sign with Bayern Munich in a €12.9 m deal in 2002

Is there any source for 12.9 millions Euro?

Contents 1 Photography 2 DFB-Pokal 1997/98 3 Chelsea or Bayern player? 4 Sorbian ancestry? 5 Factual dispute 6 reference 1 - no link 7 Marriage 8 Ballacks Potential 9 Good Article nomination has failed 10 Shirt Number 11 Ballack has not lost reputation. 12 Photo not good 13 Ballack's Middle Name

[edit] Photography

Hi! I once again replaced the photography, because Image:2651449540.jpg has an unknown copyright status. --Stefan ■ 12:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] DFB-Pokal 1997/98

Okay, does anyone know, how many DFB Cup appearances Ballack had in 1997? There were three games:

• 16.08.1997 1. FC Kaiserslautern (Ama.) - 1. FC Kaiserslautern 0:5
  • I don't know, he could played for both of them, cause he was first member of K'lautern Ama.!
• 24.09.1997 1. FC Saarbrücken - 1. FC Kaiserslautern 0:4
  • he was a substitute, no goals
• 28.10.1997 1. FC Kaiserslautern - Bayern München 1:2
  • I don't know

Unfortunately this said (unlike 1998 - 2005) nothing about the formations.129.217.129.133 00:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC) edit: Ok, cleared and justified (with process of elimination). Can anyone verify the table?

[edit] Chelsea or Bayern player?

Kingjeff suggests that Ballack is still a Bayern player. As the German season has now closed, and Ballack has signed a contract with Chelsea, and Ballack's involvement in the World Cup with Germany, I really don't think Ballack will be training with or playing for Bayern again. It's true that he's contracted to Bayern until the end of June, but misleading and effectively incorrect to say he's still a Bayern player, especially given the rest of the article. I'm going to revert to showing him as a Chelsea player. Please discuss here before making any further changes. Robwingfield ^(talk) 16:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just added that both clubs to the current club section and also stated that he'll be at chelsea on July 1st. I believe this would be the correct way of putting it. Kingjeff 16:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

You put the following on my talk page:

It's not incorrect information. He's a Bayern player till June 30. Kingjeff 15:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

If you look here, then you'll see that his conntract expires June 30. Therefore his contract with Chelsea dorsn't start untill Jult 1st. If you look here then you'll see he's still considered a Bayern player.

Both pages haven't been updated since Ballack signed for Chelsea - e.g. "Even Bayern Munich, it seems, have learned to appreciate the priceless talents of the world-class Ballack. Contract talks have now worn on for a number of months and the club are growing impatient to secure the midfielder's services for the foreseeable future." I still feel that showing him as a Bayern player serves no purpose, and just looks inconsistent with the rest of the article. As per above, I'm reverting to showing him as a Chelsea player. Robwingfield ^(talk) 16:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

But the the FIFA Word Cup Page didn't exist before he signed for Chelsea. His profile at the Bayern Munich website states that June 30 is when is contract would expire. That wouldn't change irregardless if the page was updated or not. In fact, if it was, then it would state that he'll be joining chelsea on July 1st. Kingjeff 16:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, so as you say, both pages are out of date and incorrect. We have no power to update those sites and keep them current, but we do have the ability to keep Wikipedia up to date... something you seem reluctant to do. I can't be bothered to argue with you any more. It's poor etiquette on your part to keep adding the incorrect information onto the page without discussing here first, but I'll leave your edit as is because I don't have the time or inclination to pursue this further. I'll leave you with this, however... does anyone in the world believe that Ballack is still a Bayern player? Of course not. Contracts in European football normally run until 30 June of the year the contract terminates. As Ballack has left Bayern and signed a contract with Chelsea, the legal status is probably that Bayern have released Ballack from his contract, and he is now contracted to Chelsea. Stating on Wikipedia that Ballack is a Bayern player is quite simply a ridiculous. Robwingfield ^(talk) 16:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I never said incorrect and out of date. I'll agree with that on July 1. Kingjeff 23:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a point, you both have fair points, though, Kingjeffs is rather more perdantic than practical, so I'd put Chelsea, but my point is, he is most certainly not playing for both clubs, so choose, dont put both. Philc _T^E_C^I 23:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Why do you have to get caught up on technicalities and be so pedantic. I've changed my mind, I am now in favour of Chelsea, when people look to an article now, they expect to see the team he will be playing for when he next plays club football. Not the one he's never going to play for again. Its silly that you want to put Bayern up there. Whenever I've seen you posts on talk pages, you so often are abrasive and pedantic, and so unwilling to back down, basing entire arguments on misinformation and technicalites. It's a real shame. Philc _T^E_C^I 01:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

If people want to see his "current club", they expect an accuracy. Saying he's a Chelsea player before July 1 is inaccurate. Kingjeff 14:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Suit yourself, and Sheva is milan player is he? no, check his article. he's a chelsea boy too! Philc _T^E_C^I 21:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The answer is yes as of July 1st. Kingjeff 22:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

no the point was you were supposed to check the article, and all the other articles of players leaving their clubs to see that they are all listed as ther current club being the one they will be playing for next season. Philc _T^E_C^I 12:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

FIFA has Ballack as a Chelsea player because all transfers are not official til July 1st. Kingjeff 14:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

FIFAs site will be very slow to react due the immense amount of players they are dealing with, some player article eg Tomas Rosicky already states him as "currently playing for Arsenal", where as you'd argue he is still playing and contracted to dortmund. I think just to keep inline with all the other articles (and in mine and Robwingfields point of view at least, commen sense) he should be listed as a chelsea player, but I will not edit war, so I am just going to try and convince you. Philc _T^E_C^I 18:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I can see you can never admit you're wrong. Kingjeff 20:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thats a harsh deduction. I think that you have a fair point, and thats why I won't change it. If I thought I was right and you were wrong I would just change it, but I don't, I think we both have valid points. I think the contract is purely a legal and financial obligation, and the dates on it are respective those matters only, I think now he is either not playing for anyone (except germany obviously) or his current club is Chelsea. And that all that happens on the 1st of july is that his wage goes up, and he gets his last packet from Bayern. But all I can see coming from this now is an argument, and people getting offended (I already am, but I'll let it slip), so you can reply to this, but I may not reply again. Philc _T^E_C^I 01:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

There is too much crap about why he was leaving bayern. Things like Bayern has "only a few world class players" and "they do not want to win the champions league" are bullshit... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.201.73.139 (talk • contribs) 04:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorbian ancestry?

Which are the sources for this. I searched in the Internet and found nothing about that and I am very sure that some Sorbian pages would mention this.(I am myself form Lusatia) His lastname "Ballack" has Sorbian roots, that's true, but this is not enough to say he is of Sorbian origin. Maybe there was only one Sorbian ancestor 500 years ago and he surely have also German anesters so you have at least to say "partly Sorbian ancestry". You also do not claim all people which have a name of German origin are of German ancestry - if you would nearly all of the East European Jews would be claimed as of German ancestry. Fewer than 10% of the people in Lusatia are Sorbs (and the Germans are the majority for most parts of Lusatia since 1400), many others may have some Sorbian ancestors but were assimilated and mixed with Germans more than 300-700 years ago. In fact the Sorbs live mostly in the area northwest of Bautzen. In Görlitz lives nearly no Sorbs anymore since some hundred years. I don't care if Ballack is a Sorb or not but I have never heard from that and I am form the region myself. Thatswhy someone should indicate a source. --Knarf-bz 23:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I hope it's better this way. I am a Serb actually, and Ballack is very popular in Serbia for his name and appearance: he does not SOUND German (Balak is Slavic), he does not LOOK German (dark hair and typical South Serb complexion), so the people use to say: Look at him! A real brother Serb from Lusatia! Funny, ha? We can recognize the masked Sorbs. As we were taught in school, Nimitz, Leibnitz, (and football players Littbarski) were also Sorbs, as well as all the people with their surnames ending with -OW (Karl Krolow, Lisa Kudrow, Genschow etc.). Was Bismarck a Sorb too? It was mentioned in my school too. You know, the fact that you Sorbs have lost your language doe not mean a thing. I am surprised with this thinking. It does not matter how many people speak Sorbian. In my history class my teacher said that 70% of East Germany was inhabited by the decendents of Polabski Serbi and Lužički Serbi. Dresden, Berlin, Brandendburg, these are all Slavic names. We were taught that we actally came from Branibor to the Balkans. Zhix 00:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Just because there is one leter difference, this does not mean Sorbs and Serbs are the same nation. Sorbs are western Slavs, Serbs are southern. End of story.

well it's not quite the end of story, Sorb and Serb is how they are known in English, Slovenes and Slovaks both refer to themselves as Slovenski and have a slight alteration for the other people in their respective languages. As for being West Slavic as opposed to South, that only reflects the direction taken by their ancestors, it doesn't mean that they were not related earlier. I am not one of those who struggles to establish links between people and groups with SRB as part of their name, and others with the HRV+T (RVT) connections (known to Croats). As you can see, the Sorbs are referred to as Srbi of a kind in Serbia, my point is not that Sorbs and Serbs are descended from a common ancestor unrelated to other Slav groups, that is everything I argue against, my point is that as people do move away, their names alter as does the language and there is certainly no evidence to suggest that Lusation Sorb and Balkan Serb have different routes. --Evlekis 17:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Norum 5.07.2006

That only show how bad your history teacher is - sound like a German teacher 60 years ago - a concept of race which can't stand science of today. It's true that 70% of East Germany was inhabited by Slavic people in 700/800 (which by the way mixed a little bit with Germanic people which inhabited the region before) and then there was a big immigration of Germans and in most of East Germany this immigrants have been a much larger number than the Sorbs. In Lusatia it's a little bit different, but even there at least 50% have a Germanic backround. By the way the German nation in this time was still in becoming and for sure the Germans have also a slavic backround (even the Nazi-history books claimed that) This ancient Slaves mixed with a greater number of different Germanic tribes and slowly the "German" nation was formed. In fact I am very sure that all Sorbs are much more related to the Germans (the Germans and the Germanic tribes are NOT the same - the Germans are a nation formed a long time ago of maybe 75% Germanics 15% Slavics and 10% others - and in 300 years you will have Germans (if not Europeans) with African an Turkey backround) than to the Serbs. The families are related and mixed all over the years (genetical mix and cultural mix with a little bit cultural domination of the Germanic part), some relation to the Serbs is at least more than 1400 years in the past. The names are an relict which shows that there is a conection to Slavic people - not more - the same way many parts of East Europa and also the Balkan have some German or Austrian history, which you will at least find if you search in some important national liberies. If you want you can say that the Germans (not only the Sorbs) are related to the Serbs in some way. And how look a German? There are many people which look like Ballack (also among the Neo-Nazis ;-) - only 10% are real blond (Hitler had dark hair to) and in Serbia there are also blond people - by the way the great number of dark haired Serbs is not only related to the Slaves but also to the mix with roman and arabian people - Slaves are not alway typicaly dark haired - have you ever been in Russia? - many people which say today that they are Sorbs are also blond others have German family names - by the way there have been also cases that Germans took slavic names not only the other way around) Maybe this indicates some south European influence long time ago (the German nation is one of the most mixed nations in Europe by the way but after more than 1000 years it would be nonsense to construct a relation to the Serbs which mixed themself with other etnics - by the way the roots of all humans are in Africa, which you can see when you look at Serbs and Germans - all are humans. --141.30.134.200 11:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, none of the information on Ballack's ancestry in the article has been shown as verifiable from any authoritative source, and its inclusion seems to violate WP:NOR. Feel free to return when you have properly sourced information. Gail Wynand 05:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

This way the Kennedy's are "Italians" or so does the book "Italians in North America" claims. Apparently their ancestors moved from Italy to Ireland in 13th century, but this does not make them Italians anymore. Same thing with George W. Bush. He says to have some czech background from the middle ages, but this does not make him Czech.

Norum 4.07.2006

Just to come back to the point. Ballack has a Slavic route, nobody has disputed that, but there are two observations. Firstly the double-L is a Germanization, the other being that if Michael identified as Wendish, he might have insisted his surname be pronounced /balla ts k/ (giving the Slavic 'c' the 'ts' sound). The dark hair connection is irrelevant, lots of Germans have dark hair, and in any case, the Slavic nations in Germany's vicinity tend to be lighter haired anyhow, where one tends to find the dark hair among more people is further south in Europe. --Evlekis 17:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Factual dispute

What facts are being disputed in this article? Kingjeff 13:26, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorbian ancestry? See above on the disussion page --Knarf-bz 13:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I am sure his girlfriend's name is Simone Lamb.

u r absolutely right. I guess some crazy fan has put her own name.What a shameless nut!

Is the red card against Liverpool Ballack's first red card in his career or his first STRAIGHT red card in his career? I seem to have sources for both cases. Anyone can confirm either way? --Han Sheng 17:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] reference 1 - no link

"Ballack agreed to join Chelsea on a Bosman transfer on May 15, 2006.[1] During his last season as a Bayern player there were rumours of" I don't have a link but I think someone should fix it. Yonatanh 15:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It was deleted in this edit, where the named reference that is still being called in the current version was deleted. I've put it back into the article in full now. Robwingfield ^(talk) 17:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marriage

According to Ballack's official website, he is not married to Simone. --Muchness 23:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes and I know on the Bayern Munich website, it said how he was single and had a girlfriend. Kingjeff 23:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

A recent edit (diff) changed Simone Lambe's description to "civil-law" partner – is this a synonym for common-law partner? I can't find a reference describing her in this way on Google, and I am reverting to the previous description (simply partner). Can someone either shed some light on their relationship status or provide a source that clears this up? --Muchness 18:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ballacks Potential

I think that Ballacks full potential will be shown when he plays for Chelsea. The EPL has talanted and great players like Henry, Rooney, C.Ronaldo and his teammate Lehmann. Playing alongside Lampard, Robben, Makalele will surely only help him to show his skills better. Germany deserved a place in the finals, specially after Ballack missed the finals of the 2002 edition due to a red card.... two goals at the brink of extra time took the cup away from Germany. if it had gone to the penalties, i am sure germany would have won.

[edit] Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Michael Ballack has failed, for the following reason(s):

I am failing the article as GA for now. Although the article has many qualities, it is still too much of a fluff piece trying to portray Ballack as a football wiz. Mind you I have absolutely nothing against Ballack but the overall tone of the article should be more factual and neutral rather than overly positive. There are also a few grammatical errors which although not crucial (I've fixed a few) still pull the article down just below what I feel should be the GA standard. Pascal.Tesson 03:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shirt Number

It was announced days after signing with Chelsea, that he would be handed the number 13 shirt, even though William Gallas currently wore that number. So a change is in order for his number.

[edit] Ballack has not lost reputation.

"though his reputation in Germany has suffered recently because of the considerable unpopularity of his decision to leave Bayern for English club Chelsea."

That's not true. He has lost reputation in Munich, but not in Germany. the broad public and the press understands and respects his decision.

[edit] Photo not good

Thephoto given by you is not up to the mark... the photo should display him as either a chelsea or german player... he sould have some good expressions of determination and grit on his face this would make the page more attractive and more people would edit and access it resulting in the promotion of this article..... but your photo dosent seem to mathup to any off the standards....

If you can find a free image that can be used in the article that shows him in Chelsea uniform then that would be fine. It's not ok to use a fair use image when there is a free alternative, however. See Wikipedia:Fair use. jaco♫plane 13:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ballack's Middle Name

Can someone name the source of Michael Ballack's middle name? I've never heard that he even had a middle name, let alone it being "Avlot"! This information isn't even on his official site!! --SaraFL 18:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard of any middle name of Ballack either. Kingjeff 19:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)