Talk:Metroidvania

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[edit] Metroidvania is used by the media to describe Castlevania games

Until someone can prove that Metroidvania is used to describe games other than Castlevania games (with a credible source) this page will redirect to Castleroid. Here is an example of a credible source (in this case describing Dawn of Sorrow as a Metroidvania. [1]) Guermantes 02:29, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

  • OK, Guer, here are four sites that call "Cave Story" a "Metroidvania":

http://www.gamehippo.com/cgi-bin/hippo_view_comments2.pl?game_id=2107 http://www.toastyfrog.com/toastywiki/index.php/Site/Metroidvania http://polybius.org/2006/04/12/cave-story/ http://cheats.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3138091 I think that pretty much settles things. Don't you?? Luvcraft 22:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

    • Also the 1up.com article on "Eternal Daughter" that I just added. Luvcraft 20:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Metroid-style game

That article should be under Metroidvania... The current name is awkward and the term has been used to describe Cave Story, so the use would be valid. Lankybugger 14:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Revision in my User Page

I've revised the three articles into one slightly longer article under the name of Metroidvania. It's a quick and dirty job for now, but it's on my User Page. Comments would definately be welcome. Lankybugger 23:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I love it! If and when Castleroid gets deleted (in 2 weeks, when the votes for deletion are tallied), you should definitely drop this into Metroidvania. Thanks! Luvcraft 03:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk from Metroid-style Game

Below is the unedited Talk page from Metroid-style game.

[edit] Article Edit

I've removed Metroid games from the list... Metroid games are generally Metroid-style by definition, and the article notes that some aren't. I've split the list and I also added Eternal Daughter to the list of Other Metroid-style games. Lankybugger 19:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

  • The 2D Metroid games listed belong in this list; the "Metroid Prime" games do not. Metroid 1 and 2 also do not belong in this list. Luvcraft 22:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Please explain how exactly the first two Metroid games do not belong in this list. 24.250.103.144 06:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename

Perhaps we should rename this article to 2D Metroid-style Game? Lankybugger 19:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Too awkward. "Metroidvania" is the term most often used for this genre, but the creators of the Castleroid article throw a hissy fit if someone tries to modify the Metroidvania article. Luvcraft 22:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I say we do it anyways. It's nice that they feel Metroidvania is somehow "theirs", but I've seen the term used to describe Cave Story. "Metroid-style game" itself is pretty awkward. Lankybugger 14:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd go with the Metroidvania name, too. SAMAS 19:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge to Metroidvania

This article should be under Metroidvania... The current name is awkward and the term has been used to describe Cave Story, so the use would be valid. Lankybugger 14:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've revised the three articles into one slightly longer article under the name of Metroidvania. It's a quick and dirty job for now, but it's on my User Page. Comments would definately be welcome. Lankybugger 23:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merged from Metroid-style game

I'm fairly certain I got all the Metroid-style game links changed to Metroidvania, and as there were no objections to the merger I've done so.

Cheers, Lankybugger 13:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Looks great! I would've waited to change it until after Castleroid was deleted, so that the Castleroid kids wouldn't have justification to revert it. I suppose if they do you can always revert their reversion. :)X Luvcraft 16:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's the funny bit... A clear consensus was reached to merge Metroidvania and Metroid-style game regardless of the Castleroid deletion. That's an entirely seperate issue which has no bearing on moving the information from the Metroid-style game article. The merge proposal was up for five days with a vote of 3 for the merge and 0 against... So they've had their chance. Reversions would very likely be in bad faith. Lankybugger 16:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] zuh?

I have to say that I've never heard of the term before, and I consider myself an avid Metroid fan. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 06:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted edits made by 211.27.251.241

Looks like the Castleroid crew has finally decided to show itself here. I've reverted a bunch of edits which were trying to rewrite the definition of Metroidvania in direct contrast to the previously stated definition. There was a particularly confusing bit stating "Unlike the other way around, Metroid games have not been clearly influenced by the Castlevania series, and the phrase 'Metroid Formula' is sufficient to describe the structure of Metroid games."

We've been over this. Metroidvania is used to describe a whole genre which includes games like Cave Story and Eternal Daughter. Castleroid is the Castlevania exclusive term, and this is mentioned in the article. Lankybugger 17:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Since someone's going to bring it up... The second Castleroid AfD conclusively proved that Castleroid as a term is non-notable. Trying to redefine Metroidvania to mean Castleroid doesn't help. Lankybugger 17:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3D Metroidvania

"although the Metroid Prime games retain the non-linear exploration, mapping, and special-ability-collection, their 3D nature excludes them from the category."

Is there a term describing such games as and Metroid Prime, Deus Ex: Invisible_War and Hexen in the 3D genre? DaveWebster 14:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. First-person role-playing games (like Deus Ex or Ultima Underworld) and first-person action-adventure games (like Prime, Hexen or System Shock).

[edit] Problem with "Other Metroidvanias" article.

The impression I recieve from the name Metroidvania or Castletroid is that the name's usage is exclusive to the two video game series in question, Castlevania and Metroid. In fact i can not see any other way of looking at the title. It therefore becomes an extremely confusing issue to the avarage Wiki-user when such a niche gameplay description, (which by most accounts is still rarely used and never spoken) is used to describe games that are not Castlevania nor Metroid.

It's not that hard to understand, and the term Metroidvania is commonly used to describe 2D Action/Adventure games outside of the Metroid or Castlevania franchises. If you go through the sources or check Luvcroft's response to "Metroidvania is used by the media to describe Castlevania games" above, you'll find that most games with elements from Super Metroid and more recent 2D Castlevanias are called Metroidvania outright (or compared to those titles). Sorry if I sound snippy about this but it's been a point of much debate. Lankybugger 16:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Super Adventure Island 2

Isn't this game a good example of a Metroidvania? It features exploration, complex maps, acquiring unique items which enable you to move forward, a plot, etc. Denis Kasak 15:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It's been a while but it might just fit the bill, I think. Lankybugger 19:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Metroidvania category?

I was just wondering if maybe there should be a Metroidvania category? That'd remove the requirement of listing all the different games in the article. Right now the See Also is getting more than a little bloated, taking up roughly half of the article's verticle height.

Thoughts? I might just go ahead and do this in a little while. Lankybugger 19:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[Look what I did]. Metroidvania now has it's own category. I'll take a look at fixing the article up a bit later. Cheers, Lankybugger 14:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extensive Re-Org with Added Material

I've mainly reorganized the content so that it reads easier, added a small section on RPG elements and added screenshots to illustrate some of the gameplay concepts. I'd really prefer to get some non-Metroid shots up (as the only non-Metroid shot just details the automap from Castlevania:SOTN) to illustrate concepts like impassable barriers or the inventory system. Just so that there's some variety. Maybe I'll snag a screenshot from Aria of Sorrow when I get home. Lankybugger 15:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Really pushing the envelope

This article is well written, but it seems like an original work. Has 'Metroidvania' ever been defined by a reliable, third-party source? It scores pretty badly on google[2]. Note that usages of a neologism do not count as references.--Nydas 13:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Nydas. Thanks for feeling the article is well written. Normally I'd agree with you on your stance on Neologisms, but I feel that Metroidvania is an exception. While it does not get many hits on google, it does pop up in reviews for games with some regularity, especially as regards more recent games. Mega Man ZX, for example, has more than a few professional reviewers use the term. The term itself is always defined as being "like Metroid and Castlevania", hence the name. Reviewers that use the term invariable include the words in the definition... IE Side-scrolling, Exploration, seamless map. Most of the information regarding the actual content of the genre is culled from articles on the games themselves, though perhaps the article could be trimmed back. Lankybugger 22:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I suspect that most professional reviewers have never heard of the term. I can't find any using it for Megaman ZX. By the articles own admission, the term has only appeared once in print. More than any objection to the article, I'm not happy about the Metroidvania category. Hardly anyone has described Demon's Crest (for example) as 'Metroidvania'.--Nydas 14:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'd like to contradict you on that one. Jeremy Parish, more commonly known online as toastyfrog, has used Metroidvania extensively. In fact, he's linked in the article as a source because he has a passion for these games AND he's also 1up's Features editor, which classifies him as a professional by pretty much ANY way of slicing it you'd like. You certainly can't dispute the notability of 1up.com as a source for games.
So, on to the next bit, where you say you can't find any reviewers using Metroidvania for Mega Man ZX: Here's one. That's from NintendoWorldReport, and Jeremy Parish also uses Metroidvania to describe it here. This does as well. This discounts forum posts which use the term, which are of course non-notable.
As explained in a post above this one, I created the Metroidvania category to reduce clutter in the article because people continued to add games to the article. Rather than allow a bloated list to dominate the article, I removed any games which weren't notable enough to already have a Wikipedia article and added the category to those that are. Lankybugger 04:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Just as an aside I'd like to add, the wonderful bit about Categories is that they're relatively simple to add to or remove from. If certain entries in the category bother you, feel free to remove them. Either it'll be noticed and contested (a process which lies at the heart of any wiki) or it'll be accepted and thus you've made Wikipedia a better, more accurate source of information. Lankybugger 04:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Would it be fair to say that Jeremy Parish is (for all intents and purposes) the coiner of this neologism? One of those reviews links back to his blog, and it comes up top for Google searches for the term. To be honest, it's still pretty weak. A political neologism or a term coined by a sci-fi author with similar levels of exposure would be scrapping the barrel as well. Say a journalist or politician coins the term 'socioconservative' in their blog, and it gets used in a handful of articles. Would it be justifiable to create a 'socioconservatives' category on Wikipedia and start placing biographies in it?--Nydas 23:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
No, it would not be fair to say that at all. In fact, he starts off his Metroidvania page by saying "[that] "Metroidvania" is a stupid word for a wonderful thing." Everything he's written indicates that he dislikes the term Metroidvania but really enjoys these kinds of games. I have not bothered to update the article with who coined the term (and when) because the few places I've found which claim to have tracked it's origins are not notable enough to warrant being a source. Just as an aside, would this article's existence rest a lot easier on your mind were I to extensively source it? It's something I've been meaning to do for a while now but haven't done because honestly, the article could use a lot of work as far as that goes. Lankybugger 13:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Sourcing is always good. However, my main preference would be to restore the list, rather than have a category. The Metroid series has had masses of reviews and media attention, and I'd be surprised if even 1% of those reviews used the term 'Metroidvania'.--Nydas(Talk) 11:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion?

  • I agree that this article is mostly original research. This term deserves (at best) a mention in Metroid and Castlevania - certainly not its own article. It is apparently only used by a couple reviewers and has a very limited number of Google hits for a video game term. I just found this article, so I don't really want to just jump in here and nominate this for deletion while there is some discussion going on, but this should be removed in the relatively near future. Thoughts/comments? Wickethewok 21:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm of two minds on this.
On the one hand, I do feel this is a good article worthy of inclusion into Wikipedia. The term is gaining a lot of momentum not just in forums, but with professional reviewers as well. As I've mentioned before, Jeremy Parish is a pretty notable person within the professional gaming press and he's used it quite a few times despite his disdain for it. Castleroid survived a couple of AfDs to my knowledge (before it got merged with Metroidvania, creating the article today) and it's certainly less notable. There are enough verifiable sources using the term (and definitions have been found, such as Jeremy Parish's own definition) that I feel that Wikipedia would be diminished by it's absence.
On the other hand, I do agree that a lot of the information I've contributed to this article is, in hindsight, original research. I've been putting it off for a while but I think I'm going to take some time to thoroughly prune this article down. Right now I can't tell what could be construed by others as OR and what does constitute verifiable information so I think I'm going to take this article to the chopping block. Lankybugger 23:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete. See Wikipedia is not a dictionary. I try and make a point of not being a hard-on about original research, but the simple fact is that the term Metroidvania is just a cutesy way of saying "exploration-based 2D action-adventure game", a great number of which preceded either of these two franchises. Thus, even beyond being both original research and a definition, the article by its very nature will never be able to offer much information of any substance. Tzaquiel 23:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not an AfD discussion. Please save your "strong delete"s for an actual AfD. That said, deletion is not an option; this article was created as a result of the AfD for 'Castleroid', and thus has already passed AfD and proved its wikipedia-worthiness. I am removing the bogus "original research" disclaimer from this article's page because an article with nine references from various sources is not eligible for criticism for "not citing its sources". Luvcraft 22:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Past AFDs don't "prove" something's "wikipedia-worthiness" necessarily. The GNAA article, as an extreme example, had its worthiness "proven" over a dozen times before it was deleted. Wickethewok 22:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I am removing the bogus "original research" disclaimer from this article's page because an article with nine references from various sources is not eligible for criticism for "not citing its sources" . . . Nine links to game review sites do not references make. The point is not how many mere usages of the word can be found to link to, the point is that the entire article is a silly neologism that can never possibly be expanded to anything more than a couple of paragraphs and a list of games. Not trying to denigrate anyone's contribution; just saying. No matter how you feel about this article's presence, {{originalresearch}} does indeed belong at the top; I'd put it back if it didn't smell like edit war in here. Tzaquiel 00:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Talking about deletion is a bit premature, but both an AFD and the OR tag are asking for the same thing. What we need are sources we can reference to back up the claims made in this article. Not simply sources that refer to this concept in passing, but sources that support the claims made in the article. Right now, this article has zero. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused, MIB. Most of the sentences you've put [citation needed] tags after say "video game review sites have called X a Metroidvania", but right there at the bottom of the article in the "references" section are links to those very reviews. Would you be happier if there were direct, footnote-style links from every sentence in the article to the reference that supported it? Luvcraft 16:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ouch, my writing!

Alright... I've obliterated large swathes of the article, like a Brazilian farmer clearing forest for cattle with a torch. I've tried to keep the flow of the article sound, though no doubt it could use some cleaning up. I intend to take some time to dig up more sources for the term Metroidvania (preferably from truly notable sources like 1up.com and such), though I can't say if I'll get to it tonight. I'm pretty sure I got most of the OR. Suggestions on improving the article would be appreciated.

Cheers, Lankybugger 23:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The wording of the article seems to be trying desperately to prove it's notability, but the result just makes it more dubious.

"Metroidvania is a portmanteau used by the media and fans..."

Who else would use the term?

"In print media, one discovered usage..."

Discovered sounds like OR. A single printed usage is pretty weak.

"On gaming websites..."

Which gaming websites?

"A strong element of this genre..."

Strong according to who?

The blunt truth is that this article has little chance of surviving an AfD. I would either save the text of the previous article and publish it on a personal website, gaming wiki, forum or blog. It might be possible to find a more commonly accepted term for this type of game (Side-scrolling adventure? Platform RPG?) and transplant most of the text to an article about that. Or you could add a brief mention to the Platform game article.--Nydas(Talk) 10:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If you feel that this article wouldn't survive an AfD, please feel free to try. The best way to improve Wikipedia is to eliminate the material not notable enough to belong and help rewrite the material which does so that it flows more smoothly and has a more professional tone.

However, I'd like to point out a few things:

  • It is not this article's job to prove that every reviewer uses the term Metroidvania or even that most of them use it. This article's job is to define the term Metroidvania because it does pop up with some frequency in the gaming industry. To that end, I've put up more sourcing which shows the term's use in IGN, Gamespy, Eurogamer AND 1UP.com articles. Those are four of the biggest sites in the gaming industry and frankly I could have gotten still more uses out of each.
  • It is also not this article's job to find a more acceptable term. Despite your own prejudice against Neologisms, this term does see enough use to warrant at least a stub. Wikipedia is a source of verifiable information and the simple fact of the matter is that Metroidvania does see use by some professional game journalists.
  • Finally, it is not this article's job to justify every sentence it contains. Picking apart the article's individual sentences as a means of attacking the whole does strike me as a little petty, especially when I've made it clear that this article, having very recently been gouged of most of it's content, does need some copy-editing. The article's right to remain on Wikipedia and it's need for copyediting are two seperate issues.

I would like to thank you for your thoughts, and if I get the time later today I'll be rewriting the portions you've outlined.

Cheers, Lankybugger 16:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I vote to bring the tone of this argument down a notch. Lanky : are you familiar with Encyclopedia Gamia? I'm sure your efforts would be both more appreciated and less contested there. Loading this article with pictures and text will likely not increase its chance of surviving an AfD-bomb. Remember : Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Game-wise, we seem to have similar taste, which I can appreciate (have you checked out Cave Story yet?); however, your edit history reveals that you have been busily adding [[Category:Metroidvania]] to quite a number of games, which makes this whole affair seem like something of a personal crusade of yours. A gaming wiki such as EG may give your contributions a much warmer welcome. Tzaquiel 18:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Fairly spoken. I won't deny that I do love these sorts of games, however I do feel that this article does deserve a place here. I've done a lot of work but that's because I do feel the article needs it. As noted in the recent history, I've drastically reduced the article's size and will shortly be converting the current collection of links to proper inline sourcing.
As mentioned in the creation of the category itself, I did it to reduce the clutter on the page. Pretty much all of the games which I've added the Metroidvania category to were already on the list.
I'll be honest, though. I do feel that if people feel strongly enough about this article's worth on Wikipedia (or lack thereof) it's in the best interest of Wikipedia to proceed with the AfD. I personally feel that the article belongs given it's usage in gaming media and it seems to me that there are others who feel differently.
Cheers, Lankybugger 20:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
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