Template talk:Messianic Judaism

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TemplateMessianic Judaism is part of WikiProject Messianic Judaism, a project to improve all articles related to Messianic Judaism. If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Messianic Judaism.

Project Messianic Judaism Tasks List: edit purge watch Tasks are listed in order of priority: The following articles were deleted.It is the opinion of this Project, that these articles do not meet VfD criteria and thus should have been kept and continued to be expanded, and we urge all editors to make a comment supporting the articles in the appropriate VfD Talk pages, and/or redevelop the articles in light of the suggestions of the VfD discussions: Isaac Lichtenstein: VfD Talk | Article Talk First Fruits of Zion: VfD Talk | Article Talk Boaz Michael: VfD Talk | Article Talk Other Tasks: Messianic Movement needs to be populated with information specific to the modern movement itself. List of Messianic Jewish organizations needs to be populated with a list of organizations related to or associated with Messianic Judaism. List of Messianic Judaism important figures needs to be populated. List of Messianic Movement leaders needs to be populated with a list of leaders in the modern and current movement from 1960 to present. Articles on many of these leaders also need to be created. Messianic Judaism needs to have its Theology section content summarized as the majority of it has been copied to a new article called Messianic Jewish theology. Messianic Halakha needs cleanup. The article needs to have its focus more on Halakha and less on Theology. Please move relevant Theology information to Messianic Jewish theology.

Feel free to do whatever it takes to make this template function, and change anything that needs it. Toda Raba.

Contents 1 We have a template! 2 Jews for Jesus 3 Symbol 4 Rabbi Hillel 5 Complete redraft 6 What is the purpose of this template? 7 Question for Inigmatus 8 response to 3O request

[edit] We have a template!

I created this template using code from known religious portals and included content from both the Jewish and Christianity portals to get us started. I figure this first step in organizing Messianic Judaism articles will be the beginning of a much needed expansion of articles, as well as prompt the creation of new articles so as to provide the public with useful information about Messianic Judaism and all its aspects. Please discuss major changes (like total rewrites or deletion of sections) to this template here first before posting them. Minor additions are ok for now as we need to come to a consensus on what information needs to be added to this template and how it should be organized. inigmatus 04:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jews for Jesus

Do they belong here? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 06:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Jews for Jesus belong in the template somewhere, I am sure, since it's a misconception that Jews for Jesus are Messianic Jews. Perhaps in the Christian section of the template. I' still working out some ideas. inigmatus 15:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Symbol

Is this a commonly accepted symbol of MJ? WP:RS please. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 06:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure thing! Link to IMJA article on the Messianic Judaism symbol: http://www.imja.com/Gershon2.html says "The Menorah and Fish, separately or together, are major symbols used by Messianic Jews in Israel. Also the Star of David appears in various logos. However, it is especially the Menorah, with its national and messianic symbolism, that becomes an artistic instrument to identify with the ethnic Jewish community and at the same time, represent Yeshua through the Menorah."

Furthermore, you can buy the Messianic seal for your car now: [1]

I also intend to write an article on the Messianic seal based on several published sources. Also a Google search for "Messianic seal" will keep you occupied for hours.

Such references as http://www.familybible.org/About/MessianicSeal.htm for articles about it, as well as http://www.biblicalisraeltours.com/messianic_seal.htm - for a archeological pictures of the seal on various artifacts.

I am also currently engaged in securing rights to publish archeological photographs of the Messianic seal on Wikipedia.

Hope that provides the WP:RS you were looking for.

inigmatus 15:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Hillel

I've added Rabbi Hillel to the list, as anyone who has learned about him knows that many of his teachings were incredibly similar to those of Yeshua (and vice versa). Good decision? Bad one? 12.64.234.224 05:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Nutty, to put it mildly! IZAK 02:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Complete redraft

After hours of work, I redrafted the entire template to get rid of unncessary and redunant bloat. The template should focus on strictly major Messianic Judaism-related articles. Several new wiki articles will need to be created, the most important for now being List of Messianic Judaism important figures inigmatus 05:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I more or less agree with your decision to "cut out the fat", so to speak, from the template. However, I am going to make one small change to it: inserting the Jewish holidays that MJs commonly celebrate, in abbreviated form. And I will change Apostlic to "Brit Chadasha", which MJs use more often anyway (it means Renewed Covenant, specifically the one promised by the Prophets of the Tanakh). When creating an article that lists important figures in Messianic Judaism, make sure you list the following:

Rabbi Hillel: Hillelian ethics have a tremendous impact and similarity with the values and ethics of MJ Timeline of Rabbis: The Jewish Rabbis throughout history that believed Yeshua to be Jewish Mossiach, starting from Shaul and ending perhaps at Michael Rood. :D Shalom. 12.65.216.68 15:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I prefer Apostolic Scriptures, or Apostolic Writings, because it is a neutral term that all Messianics fall back on. Some use Brit Chadasha, others Apostolic Writings, and still others, New Testament; however all can agree on at least recognizing the term "Apostolic" to refer to these scriptures - and that is why I choose that neutral term. My goal is to eventually replace all the pages that these links point to with Messianic Judaism specific pages, where for example, we can go into detail about the issues regarding calling the Apostolic writings the Brit Chadasha, or New Testament, or whatever. I will revert back to Apostolic for now unless you disagree. Let me know what you think! inigmatus

Well, understand that Messianic Jews don't generally like using the word "apostle" very much, because it's greco-hellenic and a distant translation. Yeshua HaMessiah almost certainly referred to his followers as Talmidim, or "students/disciples". Your thoughts? 12.65.216.68 18:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I would say that it's not wrong to call the writings of the Apostles as the "Apostolic" writings because most of their writings today come to us from a Greek text. Greek words in Messianic parlance isn't all that dissimilar either. For example, "synagogue" is a Greek term as well, but applying it to a Messianic congregation does not mean that the congregation is Greek. inigmatus 04:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I would rather that if we want to provide a link to Pharisees, we should add the link to the Judaism section of the template. The reason I posted the Sanhedrin and Jerusalem Council links side by side was because they are categorically together as halakhic organizations that have been (and are now, or will be) sources for halakhic guidance for Messianic believers. If we want to include Pharisees in the Judaism section, it would then only be fair to include Sadducees, and Essenes. inigmatus 02:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, I think including Saducess and Essenes as well would be quite fair. All of Yeshua's talmidim were Pharisees, Saducees, or Essenes. 12.65.54.115 23:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually none of them were. His disciples were called the Nazarenes, Notzrim in Hebrew. IZAK 02:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is the purpose of this template?

Normally, a template like this is intended to be placed on all of the articles mentioned in the template. I would hope that is not the case here. Most of the items in the template appear to be about Judaism, pure and simple, not particularly about messianic Judaism. This is as if we added items about each book of the Bible to a template about Methodism. - Jmabel | Talk 19:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The template provides quick reference to frequently asked for information that people inquiring about Messianic Judaism, have. The goal is to eventually either replace the links with links to new articles from a Messianic Judaism perspective or use, or links to subsections within the current articles listed. It's a relatively new template (only a month old), and still is a work in progress. Please see Wikiproject Messianic Judaism for further details. inigmatus 01:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The Jewish parts should be deleted. I do not see what Messianism has to do with Judaism or any Jewish objects.

For starters, I have removed Sanhedrin. Each and every Sanhedrin that ever existed has not quite support Xtianity. Perhaps the Sanhedrin really did call for Yoshke y"sh to be killed. I do not see why any mentioning of the Sanhedrin is relevant to Messianism.

Further, I would like to see statistics on how many Messianists wear tefilin. Tefilin, on average, cost at least $400. Given the sporadic observance by most 'Messianists' (such as 1 service a week), I highly doubt whether a significant number of them owns tefilin.

Next, I highly doubt the number of Messianists wearing tzitzit.

The mentioning of the gartel is totally ridiculous. I have not in my life heard of Messianists wearing a gartel - and I do not wish to know. Thus, the gartel goes out.

So we have removed Sanhedrin and Gartel. Remains Tefilin and Tzitzit to discuss.

Next, the entire section "Judaism - Denominations" is totally ridiculous. Messianists are banned from making aliyah. Thus, I do not see why that is so significant to include here. The same applies to most other things mentioned there.

Next, Talmud. What significance does the Talmud have for Messianists? According to the Talmud, Yoshke should have been killed without trial. The Talmud, as well as many other Jewish books, are quite clear about Xtianity: it is plain idolatry. Including 'Talmud' in this template is like including 'Koran' in Template:Christianity. There is no relation at all.

Next, 'Services'. Linking to 'Jewish services'. A shame and a lie. If you want to include that, write an article on Messianic services. The link to 'Jewish services' goes out. --Daniel575 | (talk) 20:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, saying "I don't see how Judaism has anything to do with Messianism" is your POV. Messianic Judaism does see a relation to Judaism, or else it wouldn't be called Messianic Judaism. The template exists to provide links to the most relevant and important topics that are important to Messianic Judaism. Most Messianics I know (about 200 plus in my local area alone) use kosher tefillin in morning prayers. I'm still paying for my set which cost $360 from a wholesaler in Israel. If you doubt Messianics wear tzitzit, perhaps you haven't seen pictures of Messianic congregations. Do a Google search, and your curiosity should be satisfied. Messianic tzitzit, talit gadol, and tallits are sold as well on several online Messianic pages. I won't talk about the gartel because you wont, lol. J/k. Needless to say, I know of those who do wear one. I haven't yet, as I haven't been convinced yet that it's necessary. Aliyah is important to all Jews, not just non-Messianic ones. If you were Jewish you'd understand the imporance of getting back to the Land to fulfill prophecy. Current issues regarding aliyah for Messianics is a hot one and therefore that is why it is mentioned on the template. Links to Judaism and its denominations are important because all Messianics need to know what the traditionally accepted sects of Judaism there are. Finally, the Talmud is very significant to the orthodox branch of Messianic Judaism. It is important because of its historical value in documenting the "traditions of the elders" and other practices the early Messianic believers in the 1st century engaged in. Messianics do not hold the Talmud to be authoritative, but we do hold it to be encyclopedic in researching popular rabbinic midrash to various legal topics. Most Messianic leaders and devout Messianic Torah students have access to a copy of the Talmud and often develop the points in their parashot from them. I am reverting all the edits you have made to this template, as your edits are POV. The template is for "a series of articles related to Messianic Judaism" - and I can attest that they are related to Messianic Judaism. If you need be to post sources for my claims, feel free to do a Google search for them. Last I checked, templates do not have to be sourced since they are tools, not actual articles. inigmatus 17:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I am submitting a WP:3 request. These unsupported reverts are getting ridiculous in my estimation when the information isn't in dispute - I've proved that the original edits were unnecessary POV, and violates the reason this template was created, and those that are reverting are not responding to my response above. inigmatus 19:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I quote Inigmatus: "the Talmud is very significant to the orthodox branch of Messianic Judaism." Man, I don't know what I should do: throw up or laugh my intestines out. --Daniel575 | (talk) 22:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You should practice civility and appropriateness, that's what you should do. Even if you disagree with him, it seems to me that Inigmatus is trying to constructively contribute to this conversation and is not resorting to childish insults.

Inigmatus: because most people are not at all versed in this topic, you need to very thoroughly source your claims. That might go a long way to resolving this dispute. - Che Nuevara 22:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Daniel's incivility aside, we do need to establish what this template is trying to accomplish and what are reasonable inclusion criteria. JoshuaZ 22:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that all the articles linked in the template are relevant, but as I said below, my knowledge of Messianic Judaism is extremely limited. Ideally, all those articles which bear a relevance to Messianic Judaism in a particular way ought to contain explanations, in their respective articles, of how, and these explanations should be clearly sourced. Articles on Judaism, etc., are appropriate, I think, in the template as "background" for Messianic Judaism, and obviously practices observed and texts studied as part of the religion are appropriate so long as they are sourced and important enough to be of note.

In my opinion, the purpose of a template like this is to provide a reader unfamiliar with the topic with an overview of the articles which will give the reader an accessible but thorough understanding. Not all of the things listed here seem necessary to me, but like I said, I lack familiarity. - Che Nuevara 22:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question for Inigmatus

In an edit summary on 30 October, you wrote: "i readded Sanhedrin next to Jerusalem Council because it is listed as a halakhic authority in Messianic Judaism, especially now that it has been reconsitituted." If that is so, please let me know what this Sanhedrin thinks about Yoshke y"sh. --Daniel575 | (talk) 20:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The submission is voluntary, such as given in the example of the Jerusalem Council - a "lower" Sanhedrin for Messianics in the 1st Century. Obviously we submit to Halakha that we believe does not contradict the Word of God; but obviously we disagree with the Sanhedrin's decision regarding Yeshua, and in these matters we will follow our own Council's decisions. Yet the importance of the reconstituted Sanhedrin is a rising issue in Messianic Judaism circles. If you were a Messianic, you'd understand. inigmatus 17:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a Messianic. R"L, CH"V. I would rather commit suicide than even consider the thought that Yoshke Y"SH could be of any significance. Thank G-d the guy is dead and rotting, and if he weren't dead, I would kill him myself, with my own bare hands. I would tie his hands and feet, and beat him until he died. Get it? Don't you dare telling me such things. And don't you are ever calling yourself a Jew or any of your whole heretical Christian sect by any name which includes the word 'Judaism'.

If there were a Sanhedrin, you and your likes would be sentenced to death by decapacitation. Please take a look at the following pages: [2] and [3]. --Daniel575 | (talk) 22:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Daniel, you've just moved from incivility to downright offensive attacks, and what could borderline be considered a threat. I recommend you cease this behavior immediately. - Che Nuevara 22:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Che Guevara: Terrible as it may seem to some people uneducated about the Torah, from the perspective of Orthodox and Haredi Judaism, Daniel575 may be 100% correct. IZAK 02:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

He may be 100% correct, but that doesn't exempt him from WP:CIV. My own opinions on this subject should be quite clear if you read the MJ talk page, but I feel Daniel has crossed the line too. Being factually correct is important, but civility is a policy as well. If Daniel can't be civil in the making of his argument, he shouldn't be here. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 03:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Daniel is somewhat irrelevant at the moment, he's been indef blocked, see the thread on WP:ANI. JoshuaZ 03:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

IZAK: first, please refrain from intentionally misnaming me. My username is not Che Guevara, nor does my signature link to the Che Guevara article. If you are curious about or would like to have a conversation about my username, please bring it to my talk page; such discussion does not belong here. Second, all Orthodox and Haredi Jews are Jewish, but not all Jewish people are Orthodox or Haredi Jews. So the beliefs of Haredi and Orthodox Jews do not equal the beliefs of the Jewish faith. There was a time when Catholics did not consider Protestants to be Christians, and I've never heard anyone saying that 17th Century Lutherans weren't Christian. I'm not saying they are or they aren't, because I'm not educated enough on the subject, but just because some Jews don't consider them to be in any way Jewish does not mean that they automatically aren't. - Che Nuevara 04:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, a few comments- as always the issue is what verifiable rather than what is true and if you look at Jews for Jesus and Messianic Judaism both give many sources that the vast majority of Jews and the four major Jewish denominations(not just the Orthodox) all consider Messianic Judaism to not be Judaism. This is relevant for considering from NPOV perspective what the template should have and how it should present those things. JoshuaZ 04:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindent) I agree completely, Joshua. I said myself that I won't pass judgment on whether Messianic Jews are Jewish or not because I don't know, but I maintain that IZAK's logic above was flawed. Now, if all major sects of Judaism disavow Messianic Judaism -- which I am willing to believe, but needs to be accurately sourced before going in an article -- then it is totally appropriate to say that: "The major sects of Judaism (listed) all disavow Messianic Judaism as not adhering to the tenets of Judaism for the reasons XYZ." However, because a major world religion is so hard to define, it is still difficult to say "Messianic Judaism is / is not Judaism". What would be more appropriate would be to say "While Messianic Jews claim to belong to the Jewish faith, the major sects of Judaism, as well as the state of Israel, disavow Messianic Judaism." However, the fact remains that, since Messianic Jews a) claim to be Jewish and b) claim to uphold the various Jewish laws as dictated by Jewish Scripture, then a basic understanding of Judaism and of Jewish Scripture / Law is necessary to a basic understanding of Messianic Judaism. Saying "Messianic Jews claim to adhere to XYZ" is not POV if they actually do make that claim; passing judgment as to whether or not they do -- religious law is very difficult to interpret -- is POV. In my opinion, the Messianic Judaism template should include information about both Judaism and Christianity, as it bears a visible relationship to both, and the information relevant to Messianic Judaism from both Judaism and Christianity should be linked. As I've said before, I'm not very well versed in Messianic Judaism so I'm not qualified to make that call, but I think the basic principle should be self-evident. Please bear in mind that I am not Jewish and have a limited knowledge of Judaism, so if I've misstated or misnamed something, please correct me. Peace - Che Nuevara 05:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The above seems completely reasonable to me. I don't think most editors here (with the (for lack of a better term) more traditionally Jewish-POV (including Izak for that matter although he may need to speak for himself) would disagree with the above. Part of the concern stemmed from the template having what amounted to a large amount of Jewish entries and no Christian entries which created a POV issue especially given the controversial nature of the claim that messianic Judaism is Judaism (this was I suspect especially irritating because many Jews have a perception that messianic Judaism deliberately obfuscates its christian elements). If it has both relevant Christian and Jewish articles I doubt the more traditionally Jewish editors would object. As for citing about about the general Jewish viewpoint, see footnotes 4 through 11 on the Jews for Judaism JoshuaZ 05:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I assume you meant Jews for Jesus, because Jews for Judaism is largely unsourced. But I'm glad we're in agreement. I would love to stick around and help hash out exactly what does and doesn't belong, but I've got a lot to learn in this field. I really would love to help: please let me know what I can do to help this issue. - Che Nuevara 06:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Oops. You're right. Hmm, didn't even have that on my watchlist, I guess its one more of many things to work on when I have time. JoshuaZ 06:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] response to 3O request

It's not true that articles linked in a "series" template are necessarily articles about that topic and thereby should have the template transcluded. Old Testament and Martin Luther are linked on Template:Christianity, and neither bears (nor should bear) the template. Articles which bear the template (in this case, about 15) are part of the series, and articles linked in the template are articles which provide an understanding integral to the topic. I know very little about Messianic Judaism, but to say that one does not need to understand Judaism to understand Messianic Judaism seems rather far-fetched. Other things listed in the template -- such as the religious articles -- should be sourced as practiced by Messianic Jews. All in all, this template seems appropriate to me, although it could use some work. - Che Nuevara 21:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that one needs to link Judaism itself from the template; the question is whether one needs to list such an array of topics all of which are readily reachable from the article Judaism. In this case, it seems like an effort to "colonize" these articles. It's as if all of the same were to be linked from a template about Christianity, which also could be argued to be a heretical form of Judaism. - Jmabel | Talk 02:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The difference is that there is (to the best of my knowledge) no sect which identifies itself as Christian which claims to follow the rules mandating the things linked on this template; sects which identify as Christian do not require their members to keep kosher, wear the garb listed on this template, or follow most of the other bans (I was going to link that to the article on the religious meaning of the word "ban", but apparently we don't have one; note to self ...) described in the Hebrew Bible. I'm not convinced that all of the links on this template are relevant, but I don't feel comfortable making that sort of judgment call.

It seems worth noting to me at this point that early Christians did indeed identify themselves as Jews, and it wasn't until much later that the term Christianity was used. - Che Nuevara 02:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The links to articles describing various subjects people would have questions about by attending a Messianic synagogue is listed in Template: Messianic Judaism. That is the criteria for this article. Every item currently listed is an experience or subject that I personally have experienced in several Messianic synagogues. Last I checked, a template does not need to be sourced if it's only meant as a referring tool to other articles that gives background information to the topic it is trying to assist. If one wants to know if these various things are issues and subjects that are related to Messianic Judaism, they need only go visit a local Messianic synagogue to find out. I can post links to several congregations that have the various items discussed or used in services if you'd like. For starters: http://www.shomeryisrael.com/ or http://www.graftedin.com/ inigmatus 05:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)