Talk:Messianic religious practice

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Messianic religious practice is part of WikiProject Messianic Judaism, a project to improve all articles related to Messianic Judaism. If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Messianic Judaism.

Project Messianic Judaism Tasks List: edit purge watch Tasks are listed in order of priority: The following articles were deleted.It is the opinion of this Project, that these articles do not meet VfD criteria and thus should have been kept and continued to be expanded, and we urge all editors to make a comment supporting the articles in the appropriate VfD Talk pages, and/or redevelop the articles in light of the suggestions of the VfD discussions: Isaac Lichtenstein: VfD Talk | Article Talk First Fruits of Zion: VfD Talk | Article Talk Boaz Michael: VfD Talk | Article Talk Other Tasks: Messianic Movement needs to be populated with information specific to the modern movement itself. List of Messianic Jewish organizations needs to be populated with a list of organizations related to or associated with Messianic Judaism. List of Messianic Judaism important figures needs to be populated. List of Messianic Movement leaders needs to be populated with a list of leaders in the modern and current movement from 1960 to present. Articles on many of these leaders also need to be created. Messianic Judaism needs to have its Theology section content summarized as the majority of it has been copied to a new article called Messianic Jewish theology. Messianic Halakha needs cleanup. The article needs to have its focus more on Halakha and less on Theology. Please move relevant Theology information to Messianic Jewish theology.

Contents 1 Removal of HaSheloosh info 2 Changing the Caveat Section 3 Merge with Messianic Judaism 4 Disputed 5 "Props" to Eliezer 6 A critique... 7 Kashrut section 8 Circumcision of Jewish Men? 9 Rename Article to Messianic Halakha 10 Kosher/Kashruth 11 Some Minor Changes 12 Renamed to Messianic Halakha to fit template 13 Merge to Messianic Judaism 14 Requested move 14.1 Survey 14.2 Discussion 15 "divinely inspired" Bible

[edit] Removal of HaSheloosh info

My background is listed in the article Source section. The "Who's Who" of the Messianic Movement preach and teach at Baruch HaShem. In 5 years of extensive study & regular attendance I have never seen or heard that term. Just because it may be an accurate translation of the English term does not mean it is commonly used by Messianics. The only term I have seen or heard as a substitute for trinity is triunity.

RickReinckens 02:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changing the Caveat Section

I have changed it from "People who practice Messianic Judaism do not consider themselves Jewish." to "Gentiles who practice Messianic Judaism do not consider themselves Jewish, while Jews do who practice it do." In my eight years at Congregation Beth Yeshua, and being a Messianic Jew myself, I would say that I and the Jews at my synagogue very much consider ourselves to be Jewish.

Lord Elessar 267 14:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I reverted various edits by an anonymous editor intended to make it sound like no Messianics are Jewish because they are false statements and added your "while Jews . . ." to the caveat. People need to be careful that their "fix POV" edits don't create false statements.

RickReinckens 23:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Messianic Judaism

The {{merge to|Messianic Judaism}} template was placed here because this article is just the same topic as Messianic Judaism all over again. IZAK 08:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

while I agree that the articles are redundant, and should be merged. I feel that there is far too much detail here, that does not add to the value of the article, only it's lenghth, and practices that represent only segments within messianic judaism are generalized to reprersent the whole. Lorem 17:45, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

STRONG DISAGREE -- MERGE THE MJ MATERIAL TO HERE

How come nobody complained about "generalizing to represent the whole" for the similar material in the MJ article?

If you want an overview rather than detail, I suggest putting an overview in the other article. This article is about practices. It's not like the average person can hop in a car, drive ten miles and visit a Messianic congregation. In most cases, if someone wants information in any depth on Messianic practices, this (and my websites) is the only place they can get it. You may be familiar with Messianic practices and therefore feel detail is not necessary, but others would disagree. Better to have more than not enough.

The Theological Perspectives section is just temporary. The article is supposed to be about practices, not theology. I am looking for a better section title.

I have recently been working on an extensive set of legal briefs at work that take up much of my time and on doing a major reorganization of the Messianic Prophecy/Prophecies grouping. Once that is done, which should be in about a week, I plan on reworking the MRP article to make it broader, such as describing the music.

With the exception of about one screenful of "get your bearings" material in Theological Perspectives, the MRP article is limited to practices. Not undocumented history, not who approves of MJ and who doesn't, not other groups, just common MJ practices. Even in the TP section several "theology" topics really deal with which religious books MJ's use.

Contrary to Lorem's comment, most of the practices described are common to most of MJ. As I have mentioned elsewhere, the "Who's Who" of MJ teach and preach at Baruch HaShem, so we hear from a lot of people literally from all over the world who visit many congregations.

Also, there simply isn't a heck of a lot of source material. It's not like Messianics can go to Amazon.com and find 200 books on different worship styles, etc. Most of the leaders were trained by the same small group of leaders or people trained by them, so styles tend to be similar.

Most of the things that are not as widely practiced are mainly because particular congregations are so small they have to meet in someone's house or a local church and therefore they can't afford the normal Jewish things like a Torah scroll. As the congregations grow and get to the point where they can get their own facilities and a Torah scroll, they tend to follow these practices.

Also, frankly, I gave up contributing to the MJ article because of the continual edit fights that article has. If this article is not merged I will continue to expand it. It can use sections on practice differences due to congregation size, gentile/Jew ratio, etc., non-U.S., etc. If the article is merged I will not be making any more contributions. And if the attitude is, "Big deal, so someone else will," check the edit history of that section. No, they won't. If you don't like the idea of redundancy (and I agree on that), delete the Religious Practice section of the MJ article and link here, instead of merging this into an article most of which has nothing to do with Messianic Religious Practices.

RickReinckens 08:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Rick: What's the point, if they have to be merged? Messianic Judaism is not seperate from its "practices". IZAK 12:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that they should be merged and this article trimmed as per Lorem above. --Eliezer | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 05:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

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(Puedo leer ingles pero no escribirlo.) Me parece mejor tener dos articulos, porque discuten sujetos diferentes. Juan Ramirez

This translates to: (I can read english but not write it) It seems better to me to have two articles because they discuss different subjects. Antonrojo 01:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

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PUT ALL THE PRACTICES STUFF HERE

No one says anything "has to" be merged. That's the point of having the templates--to get the input of the WP community, not just 2-3 people. Also, both "practices" and theology vary significantly in a lot of religions. I'm still trying to figure out when Christians call their clergy "Father", when they call them "Reverend" and when they call them "Minister", and why sometimes their cross has "Jesus" hanging on it and sometimes it doesn't. Somebody in one of these discussions said the the "practices" article is too oriented to how U.S. Messianics do things. Why doesn't that person add sections on practices in other countries?

It also seems to me that the longer these articles are the more attention they will draw. People who are just curious in general won't bother reading a separate "practices" article. Leaving them separate will make the other article a lot shorter.

Think about this . . . having a separate article on practices shows how these people copy Jewish practices. It looks like most of this article is by a guy who admits he is a gentile with training at a Christian seminary and even is the webmaster for Christian sites. He claims he is "messianic" but not Jewish. This gives good examples of their proselytization techniques. If this is watered down and merged into the Messianic Judaism article that example will be lost.

(Also, I looked through the history and it seems like Rick is the only one who attempts to document any sources for alleged practices, which is supposed to be a WP requirement.) --Judah haNasi 23:20, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Judah to put the repetitive stuff from the other article in this one. It seems to me better to have them separate. Look at the videos and notes and reference section. If that is added to the other article most of it just doesn't apply, it seems. I guess if it did someone would have already copied a lot of it.

I know that when I attend a wedding or a religious service of some other religion I really don't care much about what the people believe. I want to know how to act and how they will act. Will people be kneeling? Is there some special greeting? Is there some special clothing I should wear or not wear? Are there certain colors I'm not supposed to wear at particular times of the year? Do the women wear hats or scarves? Do you call the clergy Reverend? Minister? Father? Do they have women clergy? Do the clergy wear special clothing? What kind of music do they play? How loud will it be? Will any of it be in a foreign language? Will they give me the words? Is there any special wording that only some people use? Will they take up a collection? More than one? Are you expected to touch certain things? Are you expected not to touch certain things? Will people clap? Do people get annoyed if you talk quietly, e.g., to ask about what is going on? Are people likely to realize I don't belong to their religon? What kind of reaction can I expect? Should I try to pretend I'm "just like the rest of the people here" or tell people I'm visiting? Are there any religious symbols I should not wear?

If I am inviting someone to a gathering where most of the people will be of one different religion, is there anything I need to tell that person so she or he won't be embarrassed or feel uncomfortable? If the person has strong religious beliefs, do I have to warn him or her not to say or do certain things because they contradict the person's beliefs? Do I have to explain any of the wording or activities in advance? What is the person likely to misinterpret or not understand?

Also, when I'm teaching kids about different religions, different countries, etc., generally we describe differences in what people do, not differences in what people believe because it's easier for kids to understand that. This article helps make it clear what people in Messianic Judaism do. If it is merged into the other article and cut down, a lot of that information will be lost. It makes sense that this should be in a religious practices category since that is mainly what it deals with.

I have looked around the Web about Messianic Judaism a little and they seem to have pretty much the same beliefs as evangelical Protestants but the Web doesn't talk much about practices. It's nice to see an article that specifically talks about practices.

Milton Humason 03:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge the religious practices material here

I gotta agree with Milton. Awhile back I was involved in some research that required visiting several different denominations of several religions. I felt extremely awkward that I did not know what the people expected. I went to a pentecostal church and at times it felt like a pep rally. They were looking at me like I was weird because I just sat there quietly most of the time. I went to a different church and a woman kept saying, "Amen!" and a few other things during the sermon and people were looking at her like she should shut up. I looked through an article on Judaism and it said to wear a prayer shawl to a sabbath service. I borrowed one from a friend for a Friday night service and the only people who were wearing them were the rabbi and the guy who did the singing.

As Milton said, if I have to go to an activity of some other religion I really don't care about what they believe, I just want to know how to act and what they'll expect. It's nice to have an article that deals with that specifically.

I do have some questions about Lorem's comment though. S/he says the practices described are only done by a portion. Well, if you know about different practices, why not expand the article instead of just trashing an editor who actually took the time and effort to research and write an article? I saw the material in the other article and very little of it is documented. You say there is too much detail, but you also say you are familiar with the topic. Other people who don't know a lot about the topic probably want the detail. From what I have seen on the Web, Messianic Judaism seems to be a controversial issue and the big sticking point seems to be specifically the practices. It looks to me like certain Jewish denominations don't like the fact that Messianic religious practices seem to look like non-messianic Jewish religious practices. If that is the case, then that's a good reason to keep the articles separate and leave the detail in the religious practices article. Also, what is Lorem's background? I checked out his/her user page and it says Reinckens created it. (I don't understand why, but whatever . . .) Charles Ulysses Farley 08:16, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

After seeing this there are many problems from a Jewish POV and the article is highly misleading. Example problems: "Working" on Shabbat; Not dressing modest; etc. All of which are problems from the written Torah. ems 06:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

This is a "Messianic" Jewish subject and should not be subject to Judaism's POV (or to a Christian POV etc). An aricle on Judaism should have a Jewish POV, a Christian article should have a Christian POV, and a Messianic article should have a Messianic Jewish POV. Each article should accurately represent that groups beliefs.

I believe the subject (Messianic religious practices) is 'within the ballpark' of correctly representing the Messianic quadrants' beliefs. I also see it as rather neutral as well as neutral in that it represents various sects of the Messianic Community, as well as fairly mentions mainstream Judaisms view of Messianic religious practices.

Kindly, CowboyWisdom 00:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The above seems to be the only stated reason for the POV tag that hasn't been fixed. Since the discussion is rather abstract, a list of specific types of POV statements and some examples would make this a lot clearer. Absent that information, I'll remove the POV notice since vague POV claims cannot be corrected and because the consensus here seems to be to do so. Antonrojo 01:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Props" to Eliezer

(For those of you who don't speak "ebonics", "props" is short for "propers", i.e., "proper" recognition.)

Eliezer, thanks for removing all the stuff about "Torah-observant gentiles" and scripture references regarding the theological bases, etc., added by an anonymous editor.

There are very, very, very few Messianic gentiles who consider themselves to be "Torah-observant" in the sense described. I have met hundreds of Messianic gentiles and I can't think of even one who would describe himself/herself as "Torah-observant". Wikipedia NPOV guidelines require that extreme-minority views are not supposed to be discussed in an article unless the article is specifically on that extreme-minority view. Whoever made all the additions about "Torah-observant Messianic gentiles" is trying to make this sound like a small but growing trend in MJ when the truth is that it just isn't.

Also, the article is about religious practices, not about theology. I am still looking for a better title for the "Theological perspectives" section, which is intended just to provide a basic "orientation" for gentile readers.

RickReinckens 02:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A critique...

I find the article as it stands to appear rather factual and seems to be worded to pretty much cover the beliefs of the various Messianic sects. It is my thought that the 'neutrality and factual accuracy dispute' notice could come down.

I do wonder about the circumcision statement though. Today the heart is what is circumcised. Also, what is the differance between a Torah-observant Messianic congregation and one that does not have that label?

Perhaps the use of the 'sacred names' by a few Messianic groups should be mentioned?

The extra spaces perhaps could come out from between the entries under the "Caveat" heading since the text is bulleted?

CowboyWisdom 23:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

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If this article isn't merged with Messianic Judaism, perhaps it should be renamed something like Messianic Jewish practices as not to have a title (Messianic religious practices) that may possibly be confused with the subject of Messianic beliefs within Judaism.

CowboyWisdom 01:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kashrut section

"However, a majority of Messianic congregations believe the kosher laws were discontinued, based on various New Testament verses they claim allude to their abolishment, and as such, both Jews and gentiles are not obligated to keep kosher, nor are the dietary laws enforced in congregational gatherings."

I take issue with this for the same reason that I take issue with any of my students' papers that use "the majority of" or "most." Unless the writer has a survey showing that more than half believe something, it is not a factual statement.

In this instance, I don't think it's fair to say that more than half of all Messianic congregations believe that kashrut has been abolished. Certainly, it's not a UMJC belief.

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I agree, and changed the word 'majority' to 'some'.

CowboyWisdom 19:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Circumcision of Jewish Men?

What in the world is this saying? First you have "Jewish conversion is not possible", then you have a reference "in order for Jewish men to join". Huh?

I expect that a Jew who joins with us will soon become "zealous for Torah", and bring his life in line with its requirements.

NathanZook 03:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename Article to Messianic Halakha

I believe with the revision of Messianic Judaism to its current state, that the merger notices can be removed. It seems to be in the opinion of the editors of Messianic Judaism to keep Messianic religious practices seperate from Messianic Judaism simply because of the sheer volume of detail, although an acceptable summary of the most important and commonly used halacha is explained in Messianic Judaism. I propose that we consider revamping and renaming Messianic religious practices to Messianic Halakha and have the section in Messianic Judaism repoint to it both before and after a short halakha summary of the major halakha that is followed. Does anyone else concur? My goal is to eventually link and create enough quality articles so that Messianic Judaism can justify having its own portal on wikipedia. inigmatus 06:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm totally for it, if my opinion counts for anything. Sounds much better. Extremeleigh 02:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kosher/Kashruth

In my extensive experience, I believe there is a consensus in the Messianic community. In general, we don't eat nonkosher animals. At gatherings, it would be considered shocking and outrageous for someone to bring pork or shrimp. (A pie with lard in the crust wouldn't be unheard of simply out of ignorance.) However, the vast majority don't pay any attention to whether any individual chicken or cow is slaughtered according to Jewish law... therefore only a small minority actually keep "kosher." I've heard many people say they keep "Biblically Kosher" and what they mean is they don't eat nonkosher animals. Very few Messianics care a whit about mixing milk and meat in any way, and gatherings are never specified as "dairy" picnics or "meat" onegs.

I'm not ready to write this up but maybe I will if there's a consensus on it here. Extremeleigh 02:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some Minor Changes

Today I have reworded a few passages here and there to be more neutral and factual. The NPOV disclaimer is probably superflous at this point, as the article is about as objective as it will ever get.

4 September 2006

[edit] Renamed to Messianic Halakha to fit template

As discussed in prior Talk in Messianic Judaism and Messianic religious practices, and to better correspond to the new Messianic Judaism template, Messianic religious practices was moved to Messianic Halakha to help focus this article on halakhic information. Please move basic/general theology information in this article to the new Messianic Jewish theology page. inigmatus 04:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This seems to not have a large consensus. Furthermore, the term "Messianic Halakha" seems to be a neologism. I would tentatively suggest a move back. JoshuaZ 03:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Messianic representation on Wikipedia is small, therefore the consensus was small, but represented the majority of Messianic editors. In addition, there was no dispute by non Messianic editors at all to the move. At this time, I believe this article would require a consensus to be changed back. inigmatus 04:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Messianic editors are not the only editors concerned with these topics. To be blunt, that's a bit like if the creationists wanted to move Flood geology to True geology and it was justified that the messianics wanted to do so. (And yes, I know this example is more extreme than what has occured here but the basic point remains. Consensus should be among Wikipedians not among Wikipedians sharing a specific point of view). Also, it would be appreciated if we did not have a move war here. JoshuaZ 04:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I acknowledge this. Please lets discuss major changes like this BEFORE editing. It's the only way to prevent warring. Your analogy doesn't fit because Messianic Halakha sets it apart from Halakha. Let's stop moving, and let's keep discussing. Let's cool off for a bit please, and see what others might have to say. inigmatus 04:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the flood geology analogy- I'm not arguing that there might not be good reasons for the move that was simply a comment about the notion of consensus. Now, as to the other issues, while this might make sense, many of the listed practices have nothing to do with halacha per se but rather with general cultural practices. For example the article states that "Messiancs display Menorahs and Stars of David rather than crosses." (I haven't made up my mind what title for this article makes more sense although the matter of a neologism strongly concerns me). JoshuaZ 04:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge to Messianic Judaism

This article is just another version of Messianic Judaism and should be merged into it. It is now tagged {{merge to}} IZAK 02:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Messianic Judaism is already too (78kb) long. Messianic Halakha was created to MOVE halakhic information away from the article into a seperate article Mesianic Halakha. See the Wikiproject Messianic Judaism task list for more information. This is a CURRENT task. I am removing merger proposal per previous Talk (which has been archived) which also supports the existence of Messianic Halakha as seperate from Messianic Judaism. inigmatus 03:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Hi Inigmatus: That's not an excuse and you are making things up, as you well know, why did you change [1] the name a month ago from Messianic religious practices on your own, after there had been a consensus to keep it that way? You seem to think that you can move the furniture around and noone will notice. IZAK 05:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "divinely inspired" Bible

Many, if not most, Messianics consider the Bible to include the same books that Protestants accept as divinely inspired, although this is a matter of great debate in the Messianic community.

I'm qualifying this as conservative Protestants. Many, if not most, Protestants do not consider the Bible to be "divinely inspired", and very many Protestant religious figures use the Apocryphal texts as teaching tools. - Che Nuevara 01:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)