User talk:Merbabu

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Contents 1 U2 2 Battle of Surabaya 3 Indonesian architecture 4 User:SatuSuro 5 WP:IND newsletter 6 Majapahit 7 Borobudur 8 help 9 asi said to my mate gnang 10 polluting your talk page - maaf maaf dulu 11 The Best of 1990-2000 12 U2, Miss Sarajevo - trivia 13 Miss Sarajevo 14 Jakarta 15 TRR 16 Majapahit 17 Re: Jackp 18 Soekmono 19 Bank Indonesia 20 Indonesia DYK 21 The Legacy of Violence in Indonesia !! 22 Zoo TV references 23 Orphan 24 Caliber journals 25 If you are on or about 26 Google Earth 27 Umar W 28 Citation in Indonesia 29 Page change 30 Future collab suggestions 31 Paul Oakenfold and the Zoo TV tour 32 WP:PID 33 Rumah Gadang 34 Larry Mullen Jr 35 Article in need of cleanup - please assist if you can 36 U2 image 37 Borobudur 38 Sunday Bloody Sunday (song): now a FAC 39 Indonesia's Structure & Affiliation section 40 Re: Are you following me?

[edit] U2

wtf is your problem, you just like having a go at me. so stop littering my page ty. ChrisMHMChris

[edit] Battle of Surabaya

I think we need that article. That battle was pretty heroic and significant in Indonesian history. There is a section talking about the battle on Indonesian National Revolution, but I think we need separate article. How to request an article in WikiProject Indonesia? Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 12:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Great :) regarding collaboration i think its ok if we postpone Indonesian National Revolution to the next fortnight, and go for Majapahit Empire this time. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 13:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, i think the article name (Indonesian National Revolution) should be changed, and then create a new article regarding national revolution. The first time I saw the title of that article I presumed Westerners refer that battles as Indonesian National Revolution. We Indonesians call it Perang Kemerdekaan (Independence War), if I recall my high school history lesson correctly.

The things that you mentioned belongs to Indonesian National Revival. We call it Kebangkitan Nasional. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 13:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for that red link, I just created a redirect. this picture is very famous when talking about Battle of Surabaya, but I don't know of its copyright status. I saw the picture everywhere, can I assume that picture is free use? Thanks. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 13:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool. Flag incident in Hotel Yamato is also regarded as heroic incident by Indonesians. They tore down blue part of Dutch Red-White-Blue flag, so the flag became Red and White. Cool, isn't it? Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 14:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether it is Mallaby's car. I have not seen that pic before. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 14:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice. According to Indonesian Heritage sources, 100,000 was irregulars. you mistakenly deleted it here[1]. 20,000 is member of TKR (Tentara Keamanan Rakyat). TKR was formed by ex-member of Peta and some Heiho. During Japanese occupation, the Japs trained some Indonesians. They said Heiho was trained to fight Allies in the battlefront, and Peta was trained to defend Indonesia in case Allies attacks. That's why they are different from the 100,000 irregulars. I assumed the 100,000 irregulars were normal citizens who fought voluntarily. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 04:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Re mallaby death, i'm unclear who actually caused mallaby's death. But I'll read your sources. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 05:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

regarding hotel yamato pic? can we use it as fair use? the rational may be historical event, and no alternative available. what about bung tomo pic. May it be free of copyright? I don't think the photographer of that pic ever copyrighted his photograph. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 05:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I moved our discussion to Talk:Battle of Surabaya. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 06:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I replied you on Talk:Dutch military aggression II. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 10:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indonesian architecture

Many thanks for all the work you've done on this - have been meaning to do some of this myself for ages - especially a gallery. Will see what other photos I've got at home, but I don't think I've any to rival what have already been uploaded.--Bwmodular 13:01, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:SatuSuro

Hi are you aware that SatuSuro is on holidays and doesnt have access to a computer for about a week? Gnangarra 14:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:IND newsletter

Hi - if you need message delivering to all the members of wikiProject Indonesia, I can get MartinBotII to do it for you, if you want :) Martinp23 14:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah - that's what prompted me to ask :) I'll get it doing anything (newsletter, collab message, etc) if you want - just leave me a message :) Martinp23 14:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Majapahit

Ok. I am going to try to find articles about Majapahit, but it is so difficult. BTW, about instant FA for Indian article, take a look of somebody complained about Indian supports for Indian-only article at FAC. Here is the entry: WP:FAC#Conspiracy_Here_.26_Absolute_Oppose. — Indon (reply) — 14:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

hahaha — Indon (reply) —

Done. If you want the quotebox on the right, replace "float:left;" into "float:right;" (don't forget the semicolon). Oh, and I change the width. If you want it bigger or smaller, you know where to adjust. :-). — Indon (reply) — 14:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

One more thing I forget. If you want to move the box to the right, don't forget also to replace "margin-left:0px;" into "margin-right:0px;". — Indon (reply) — 14:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Borobudur

Yes, I saw that. Thanks. I am going to put the article on my plan. This document: [2] is really complete describing Borobudur. Oh and good that the spammer got blocked. :-)

BTW, I put objection to Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates#Indian_Standard_Time, just above "Looks good" comment. The only objection now in that FAC entry. :D — Indon (reply) — 15:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] help

I was looking for Hindu religious figures in Indonesia (on Tokoh), and I created a page on Putu Soekreta Soeranta . Unfortunately I cant understand Bahasa Indonesia, so most of the article is biodata off Tokoh. Can you help out?Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, too many tildes in my sig last time.Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply - No problem, usually I let articles sit in my sandbox for a couple of weeks. I can usually skim the info and guess, but I only understand words of Sanskrit origin (so only nouns and such). Even if you translate section by section and it takes a long time it doesnt really matter, I'm not in a hurry.Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] asi said to my mate gnang

who is an admin who keeps similar hours to us :) (at last) I preferred the time away - I cant say the enthusiasm is up and majapahit is not my cup of teh botol to be honest - I think I'd be happier in the candi and a few other places of central java - I never did believe any of the explanations of the shift of power to the east -tsunami from the south from the java trench, disease, merapi, or whatever - I suspect that the real cause is probably unexpected and unrelated to explanations given to date - if they can keep digging up candi over time - I am sure a paleo type analysis of something will find a good rational explanation for the rise of majapahit which is less the push from central java, rather something else... all we can do is wait for some bright ahli arkeolog to dig a hole in the right place - send it all off to some lab - and whoopee - the tired old explanations get buried for once and all - as rambling sid rumpo used to say the answer lies in the soil hear hear I say! so with a dial like that on my talk page - gnang knows that I have a lot less hair than that...anyways trust semua selamat SatuSuro 13:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Nah dont touch the stuff - only when I'm stranded at rellies barbies, places on the nullabor or north of mullewa - then its safer than the water. There's gotta be something out of the ordinary after 6 days - but naah - at leasst gnang's got the flamethrower - I once had one to do weeds - the pumping up the kero was the fun bit - I dont think they make them anymore... but dont get me wrong - the wolrd of the paleo archeol in java is one with some very fruitful results - there was work done near borobudur - to checck out what was growing there when it was built - I kid you not - one day they'll throw out the drudgery and prove something about the area south of merapi had things happen that the ordinarry current historian simply hasnt found the 'text for'. I could ramble at great length about the canals of kota gede - or the hydraulic systems of sultan agung and his crazy son - but - only when you are readdy for it - maybe not now. SatuSuro 14:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Bags - not fully unpacked - head - not in gear - typing fingers - chattering - urge to pollute others talk pages - top gear! SatuSuro 14:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

In my imperial ramblings through the tepas darah dalem of the central javanese palaces trying to ascertain their explanations of what and where their official and unnoficial burials were - (ah there's reason enough to start my own blog for sure) it was always quite an issue for the silsilah scribes (and what an inventive mob they are) to show the veracity of their lineages - ok some try a driect line from adam - fair enough have another one pak, but the more challenged (or challenging - we're getting on very tricky grounds here) were prepared to stake out their claims to obscure graves in the farther corners of the oyo river catchment area (no Opak for these guys - they were trying for south of Patuk - in the depths between Pacitan and Siluk - or just north of that particularr line - for graves that would prove direct connections between the end of Majapahit and the beginnings of southern javanese royalty. It's about as tenuous and unproveable as the lost civilisation under the java sea - but then again I digress, as always. the point being there should be a mention of the central javanese palace tendency to try to tie loose ends by claiming connections with majapahit SatuSuro 14:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Okey dokey - to keep it brief - will try and find a ref - usually a difficult to find mekar sari or jav lang monthly mag art from the mid 1980's that identifies the grave and the connection - thanks for your patience with my polluting your talk page - I'm signing out on this - I think Thojib Djumadi did the article - my list of his list of arts is not too diff to get - pity he's not with use - before he died he was trying to separate the stories of the two kyai ageng giring - a very brave man. may he rip SatuSuro 14:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] polluting your talk page - maaf maaf dulu

tricky - if you go into the full range of ethnographies of the practices in northern africa and other locations it is very easy to find places where local traditonal or older practices and beliefs can be seen by outsiders to be syncretic - pulau jawa tak sendirian dengan ini! - but if you're talking about such issues in an open source like wiki - I do not want to offend my friends who are practising inshaallah - and there is quite a tricky point - I cannot wait to see what happens when someone starts an article on syech siti jenar for instance... I can remember a senior person at iain sunan kalijaga wanting to stop conversation when it came to discussing which biography of the prophet saws, was capable of even coming to some perspective which he was comfortable to accomodate. having withddrawn from a number 'talk' areas - because of the intractable irreconcilable sides - bit like the turks and the armnn massacres - I tend to walk away in silence. I might seem to be overacting on this one - but I would rather waalk away from such items - unless I know I had very firm ground to sit on - otherwise a considerable amount of time can be consumed trying to cope with disputants. hope you get an idea from all this ! SatuSuro 02:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry - my discursive ramblings - to clarify - I would take a side on my area of expertise in local knowledge of aspects of cultural history in southern central java and would not move (my aikido trainer of some years ago would be pleased) regardless of the context or differences. There is a certainty I can live with. However when we get to the dosctirnal disputes within the practice of islam - thats where I tend to get edgy - my fieldwork was about the physical behaviour and activity of pilgrims at a royal javanese graveyard (oops) not what they said or thought - although I do have a limited understanding of some of that - one of my favourite late night informants wass a kraton descendent who could also claim relatedness to the reformists - and he held both within himself and his practtices - viz the dhalang in wayang having the capacity to 'contain' the opposing forces - when it comes to articles on trends in islam at a broader level - unless I was up with it - I can only defer to my memory of the material available from academics at the time of my fieldwork - and my own observations - and I dont sit comfortable with the detail of the 'disputes' between the two sides as I never really experienced it in religious pratice (I do remember the jagos on the back of motorbikes with their exhausts removed with cloth waving from their hands as they stood up going down narrow streets but i think that was political testosterone and not religious practice - but there could be a point made for it) in my own field of experience. I think what you need is a copy of the book of the guy who did his phd on nias or riau - and then went on to do a book on religious practice in the banyuwangi area - beatty i think i have a copy - I'll have a look - I think he's the clue - a pom I think not a yank I hope Im getting it clearer - sabar -SatuSuro 03:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

cripes! I am getting it wrong - sekali lagi - in relation to your message on my talk page - of course it is possible to have articles about the 'labels' outsiders have for variations in practice - I often think the acttuall practitioners dont always think in outsiders terms is one point - and of course - all the labels need good well written articles - Geertz/s labels - of the abangan and merah, and so on The Peacock book is the one you need - dated and many items have since followed trying to either context the assertions pf those who are seeking traditionalist tendenceis intheir outlook and practice Author: Peacock, James L. Title: Muslim puritans : reformist psychology in Southeast Asian Islam / James L. Peacock. Publisher: Berkeley : University of California Press, c1978. - and simply looks at the muhhamidiyah movement as the upholders of a way of looking at their practice - which label - traditionalist/modernist I'll have to take the anjing for a walk on that one - and as a reaction to the older more syncretic and softer approacches and practicess. Sorry about rambling. SatuSuro 03:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the point is that I argued with Daniel over the old 65/66 label on the grounds that I did not think any of the people I knew in Java would have ever had the concept that it was a civil war - either in their thinking, language or experience - similarly I think my respected academic at iain ( one 5 minute talk in my broken indonesian at that stage) would never have thought of the variations in Java the way that Geertz had conceptualised it (he probably had formulated his own views about practtices that would have had to explain it to his students in geertzs labels - but - I really think that an authenticated experience of the variations in religious practice or experience in indonesia must be explained in terms of what it involved for the practitione - and not the labels an outsider - londho like myself migght put on them. there is a complicated looping occuring though where new order ideology created concepts of valid official experience where James C Scott's Everyday resistance peasnt work is very relevant - there are javanese who never really buckled down to the new order ideas of things - and who still did things with the shadows and whispers required to stay out of nusakembangan - hey I gottaa fetch some kids from something - I'll be around later in the day. SatuSuro 03:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

CAUGHT IT AS i was about to shut down - you give me more paradoxes and contradictions and the closer we are on an understanding of how to understand aspects of indonessian and javanese culture! I'm out SatuSuro 04:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Quick look in between - thanks for your reply - sorry about all this stuff here! - anyways off again - cheers SatuSuro 08:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Best of 1990-2000

I have reverted your "corrections" to the spelling of hexadecimal to how it was spelt on the actual CD. thanks. see: [3] --Merbabu 03:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for that. I've made a note of the deliberate misspelling. Cheers, CmdrObot 17:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] U2, Miss Sarajevo - trivia

Hi, as I noticed you deleted Trivia section, do you have any real reason for that, or just because jou think that it is Italian? Please check data before deletion. Regards, Plantago 12:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanx for deleting it twice, together with your response on my page. So, before I revert it (this time, not in trivia section, if that is what you insist on), I'll try to explain to you:

- I speak Croatian, and understand enough Italian to say - verses at the end of Miss Sarajevo are in Croatian —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plantago (talk • contribs) 12:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Miss Sarajevo

Never heard of that. My best guess is that he's talking about a live version (Sarajevo 1997, maybe?). I'm 100% sure that the studio version does not have any words in a language other than English and Italian. For a translation of the Italian part, see [4]. Besides, if that lyric inclusion ocurred on a single live performance, it's not relevant enough to deserve a place in the article.

BTW, I'm still trying to find that Rolling Stone reference for U2... :) --Kristbg 13:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That's it! Thanks a lot! I'm putting U2 through peer review now... let's see what happens. --Kristbg 13:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

We still need to watch it. The version that's gonna be reviewed will always be the current one... Keep an eye on this page! --Kristbg 14:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Re U2 by U2: Amazon.com lost my copy in the mail, so I'm still waiting for it... hope it gets here soon, so I can help a little with the references. BTW, there are some suggestions already on the peer review... --Kristbg 16:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding poem at the end: yes, you are right, I'm talking about mentioned Modena live version. Here is the quote (in Italian):

Miss Sarajevo: L'idea per la canzone è frutto della collaborazione con il giornalista Bill Carter regista del documentario omonimo. Dal palco dello ZooTV, gli U2 fecero numerosi collegamenti in diretta con Bill Carter a Sarajevo per sensibilizzare il pubblico europeo sulla sanguinosa guerra in Bosnia. Nell'esecuzione dal vivo del 12/9/1995, a Modena al "Pavarotti and Friend", Alla fine di Miss Sarajevo Bono cita il poema croato Dubrovka, scritto nel 17° secolo da poeta Ivan Gundulich: "O lijepa, o draga, o slatka slobodo." che significa: "Oh bella, oh cara, oh dolce libertà." Il testo originale è preso da U2.com ed è quindi da considerare ufficiale.
I wanted to put info about it in the same section with Modena, but made Trivia section instead, because it was performed like that in Sarajevo also. Plantago 15:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jakarta

Latest edits look like playing around - vandal - or is it a newbie? - I'll leave the revert to you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SatuSuro (talk • contribs) 12:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Cripes - unsigned - I'll blame it on the cache issue while I was trying to muck around with Lake Pedder - must be getting old and forgetful. SatuSuro 13:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow - on different thread but watching your work on Indonesia! It's good to see focused work like that, reminds me what a flibbertigibbet I am in my editing at the moment - well done! SatuSuro 14:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TRR

I thought I was, but I was incorrect in what I thought. I thought it was three reverts per day (not 24 hours) which was why I waited to do the fourth one. If I do get blocked for that one, then that's fine (I didn't mean to, but I did do it nonetheless). The fifth one was not a revert; that was a new image, and it had not been put on that page before. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. =) —ShadowHalo 12:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I suppose that would be the flaw in my logic and the reason it's 24 hours. —ShadowHalo 13:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've tagged the U2 picture with {{replaceable fair use}}, and I won't be changing the image used on the U2 page until the issue can be settled on the Image:U2photo.jpg talk page. If you disagree that the U2 promotional picture is a copyright violation, I encourage you to bring it up on the image's talk page. —ShadowHalo 17:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

An admin will come take a look at the image and the talk page and, if there is a consensus, go with that. If there is no consensus, I believe the admin decides. That's my understanding of it; you may wish to ask on WP:MCQ or WP:WPFU or somewhere like that. —ShadowHalo 23:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they won't. But, there's hope yet. So they won't work because, as you'll see on in the right-side column under "Additional Information", it says "© All rights reserved", meaning the images are copyrighted. However, you can send the author a message asking if they'd be willing to release it under a Creative Commons license (Attribution or Attribution-ShareAlike, the others have conditions inconsistent for use on Wikipedia). For future reference, some people will post copyrighted works from other sources which aren't worth asking about, but since it shows some of the Metadata under the copyright (for example what camera was used), it's almost certainly the original. Anyway, if you have a Flickr account and would like to ask the user to license it, there are examples of what to say at Wikipedia:Example requests for permission and Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. If you'd like, I'd be more than willing to ask the user myself since I already have an account on Flickr and have sent messages like this before. Tell me either way. —ShadowHalo 05:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Majapahit

Thank you for your message. Actually I am having a wikibreak right now :-) But I promise I'll look at it! Greetings from Jakarta. Meursault2004 04:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Jackp

Oh yeah.... I picked the wrong version to revert to! Thanks for fixing that. I'm sure it's him too. JPD (talk) 12:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soekmono

One of three - I absently minded have a complete block on the other two - coffee table books are good (his english translation thesis on candi is what I lust for) - but the other two guys I'll try to resurrect for at least further reading - and they are also sufficiently good parts of the argument that it was started as a hindu monument before it got appropriated by the buddhists. same happened possibly for kalasan as well - but - I'll shut up till if find the refss... :) cheers! keep up the good work. SatuSuro 12:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Reading the article - wow there's some very hard work been put it - I have arguments with parts - I think over-reliance on Soekmono is a problem. It's encouraging me to dig deep and quick in the shed - but the overall import of the articcle is exceellent, I just have serious concerns over small bit sna dpieces. I'll shut up and find the refs. Cheers! SatuSuro 13:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bank Indonesia

OK I'll see what I can do. It is a bit difficult as it is located in a busy street! Perhaps I can go the Museum Nasional and walk over there. BTW I've taken some pictures of the Bank Indonesia building in Solo, formerly the building of the Javaasche Bank. It is a beautiful building! I'll upload the pics when I am back in Holland next week. The internet connection in Indonesia is terribly slow ;-) And yes of course I'll help you with the Dutch as long as I can ... Meursault2004 16:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you can also read this page! Meursault2004 16:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indonesia DYK

Hi Merbabu, just to let you know about the DYK system. Normally we added first new items at Portal:Indonesia/DYK and let it rotates periodically. The first 5-6 items will be displayed in Portal:Indonesia/Did_you_know, but it will be rotated from bottom to top. So if you put the item you wrote at the top, the next rotation will make that item dissapear to the archive. The remaining will be shifted and one item from archive will be added at the bottom. I hope I make you clear. If you don't, then you can read the information in Portal:Indonesia/DYK. — Indon (reply) — 10:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Legacy of Violence in Indonesia !!

Whoaa! I got your attention, right? That's the special issue of the Journal of Asian Survey vol. 42, No. 4, 2002. Look at this TOC: [5] Nice source huh? I'm going to read some of them. I am curious about it. I'll try to update some articles here with those sources tomorrow. — Indon (reply) — 16:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

On the second thought, I think I'd better to focus with something that I have now. — Indon (reply) — 16:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zoo TV references

Merbabu, do you really want to reformat all the references into that full format? Why!?!? They don't add much and they make the editable text wholly unreadable for other editors. And as you say they are utterly tedious to write, and dissuade future editors from using any citations at all. This isn't a term paper or a law review article! Wasted Time R 15:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orphan

The Coming and Spread of Islam in Southeast Asia is an orphan that looks prime candidate for Afd - no links, off the top of the head by some addled editor and the end of a binge of some sort - but before putting it up for that - wondered whether you think there's anything in keeping it at all? I suspect that its a pinch anyway - but always better to check with another before consigning it to the afd and hence the ether  :) SatuSuro 06:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Also I am considering starting an art 'Islam In Java' and looking at the works of the outsiders - Geertz, Woodwarrd and Beatty in trying to come to terms with the issues - any opinions (i realise there are good arguments for and against such a proposal) SatuSuro 06:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Also have been doing bio stubs for the foreign academics who have 'done' Java or Islam in Java - Bruinneson (cleanup), Woodward, Carey, et al- any nominations from your end? SatuSuro 07:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Interested you dont think the orphan needs afd. Thanks for the positive stuff about the bio stubs - thinking of all the people keeler, pemberton florida girardet jim fox ricklefs behrend, probably about 15-20 living ones - then there's the dead dutch porbably about the same number of them - then I'll have to work out the category - foreign academics with interests in java - etc - thats not even thinking about the baliologists or the rest... ! - just uncovered the substrata of the indonesian music articles this arvo as well! Best of luck with Indonesia - I'll pop my aged bald head in at some point and no doubt pollute the scene :) SatuSuro 09:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

nah - thts ok - I almost feel like pointing out my U2 enthusiasm (you wouldnt have guessed I bet) - and relating some of my theories about the eno presence in production - and his old d major scale gone wrong of music for airports - I've started putting links in the arrival article - and we might save it if I can put ricklefs and the old dutchies theory of chinese wali sanga versus the gujarat theory - I'm ok with it... for the moment... as for strategy and tiger mountain! SatuSuro 09:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caliber journals

My workstation at the office has institution subscription from the university library. Thus I can access the journal freely, but only for old articles through JSTOR archive. Newest articles of this Caliber journals are not subscribed by the university :-(. I have a PDF copy of that article at my notebook now. If you like to read it, then I can send you by email. — Indon (reply) — 08:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Re about DOI link. The DOI (digital object identifier) is a unique ID for an article to the official journal website. It depends on the website. Usually, they allow any access to the article's abstract and then we can get the full-text if the computer we're using have a subscription. However, this Caliber journal does not allow any access to the abstract. — Indon (reply) — 08:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that is what many journals do. They require subscription to fully access their articles, including top journals: Nature, Science, etc. If we get lucky, then some of authors provide their own articles for free on their own personal website. But yes, if you'd like, I can send you articles' PDF files. I work in a university, so I can access some of them for free. Just tell me, then I can send them by email. No worries. :-)

I see that Indonesia on Indonesian' PR, but it won't get comments from there (based on my experience). Re citation, I'm going to fix all of them one by one. There are a lot, so I need time. Oh, if you'd like to know, Germany is on FAC. I see it is a good article, nice prose, wide coverage, but stilll there are a lot of objections on its FAC. It's always tough for a country article, with numerous issues. — Indon (reply) — 08:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I've sent two bedtime stories for you by email ;-). Indonesia article has been improved a lot and let's see in GA review what the reviewer says about it. I can help by adding references, fixing citations, styles, etc. — Indon (reply) — 09:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

All right then. Take a "Indonesian-wikibreak" (should have that term for us), but be back!! I'm now at Indonesian-mood, so somebody can watch the gate. — Indon (reply) — 09:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] If you are on or about

You might want to check the most recent edit of Borobudur - a bit freaky :) SatuSuro 02:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your post in the talk - another day, another article ... maybe after checking where it was plagiarised from :)SatuSuro 03:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Google Earth

Hi, I noticed on your user page that you are a fan of Google Earth. Have you noticed that recently they started adding icons on the map for wikipedia entries containing geo data? Its pretty cool. You can click on the icon to get an extract from each article. It does highlight some issues though: some wikipedia pages are missing geo data, and others have incorrect data. For example, Cirebon was positioned near Yogyakarta. (MichaelJLowe 06:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Umar W

Yeah I was reading the changes to see what is going on - in between a possible suicide threat from an editor in melbourne (i think) - trying to cope with the mh yamin article attracting tags - and yeah I'm curious who/what/why - not to bother the revert though SatuSuro 09:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW I have some ideas about expanding the culture section in the indonesia article - what would be better (for others like yourself) - a direct edit in bits and pieces or a sandbox re-write? SatuSuro 09:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I havent laboured through the peer review yet - its just my hobby horse of regional variation in the archipelago and in java itself must be emphasised to get people away from 'In Indonesia... blah blah, and In Java ... blah blah ' because there are always exceptions to the rule in the sheer size of population and groups. Oh well I'll have a go - and then look at the peer review. cheers! SatuSuro 10:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation in Indonesia

Merbabu, sorry that I didn't get what you meant from your last message on my talk page. Could you please explain me more? Thanks. — Indon (reply) — 10:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. You're right. The Notes sub-section can be used for a real footnotes that explains about something to avoid distraction. It can also include a "tangential citation", where actually the citation item is listed on other section. For example:

References:

• AuthorX (2000), "The title", ....
• AuthorY (1920), "Another title", ....

Notes:

1. AuthorX (2000), p.20.
2. AuthorY (1920) cited by AuthorX (2000), p.10.

— Indon (reply) — 10:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

How about if we reformat the References section. The Bibliography & Further Readings subsection is trimmed only to list books or other sources that are used in the article. Other items are placed in a new section called "Further Readings". Then we can easily make a tangential citation in the Notes subsection. (Hope it's not confusing ;-) — Indon (reply) — 10:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

About '%', hmm... I prefer to use '%'. Is there something wrong with the '%' sign? — Indon (reply) — 10:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: splitting. Actually when I wanted to fix one citation in the form of "XXX cited by YYY" and then there is another one with "ZZZ cited by YYY". Thus the YYY citation is written twice and it takes some space. So if there is already YYY citation in the Bibliography section, then we can avoid writing the YYY citation twice. PS: I don't mind actually with percent, but '%' will reduce the size of the article. — Indon (reply) — 10:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Wait a sec... The current format is okay. I think I can put YYY citation in the Bibliography section, without splitting. No splitting! :-) — Indon (reply) — 10:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

HAHAHA (that is not a variable name) :-)), but I'll fix more serious citation format first. — Indon (reply) — 10:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The XXX cited by YYY is fine, I think :-D. BTW, I downloaded articles in 1945's at the time after proklamasi. (See the new citations in Indonesia article). They both are good sources for the current collabs. — Indon (reply) — 14:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Your SOTO FOOD is sooo tempting. Soto ayam + sate kerang + telor pindang + perkedel + es teh manis!!! I missed that. Where did you take the picture? — Indon (reply) — 13:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page change

Sorry - I have been off being dads taxi - now the teenager number one wants a lift again! - so the two admins on my talk page - either gnangarra or sarah ewart might be on - worth asking them - or longhair - these folks might be better in tune with the machinations - very sorry I cannot come to the aid of a perjanjian with a time limit SatuSuro 11:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Heheh getting very surreal there - if they are not on - or cannot do it - you'll have to cut and paste probably. Having lived in Darlinghurst _and_ vaucluse, I can imagine there is/ was a dream to be elsewhere SatuSuro 11:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I've moved it for you. Let me know if I've stuffed it up! :) Sarah Ewart 11:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Future collab suggestions

Sudirman and Central Java both need work... SatuSuro 12:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If you get into the substratum of sudirman's legacy - _if you were really living in yk (yogya)_ you would notice the numerous monuments to him there - and also the issues about his being a possible supporter of the fledgling of we know who - so the issues are as possibly virulent - where the legends/myths of the almost mythical wounded king (in tb and in chair) saving the early RI from the dutch - is tinged with the possible sympathies... it really would be a task to keep the NPOV in check if the more nationalist children of the new order understood how the great man has a problematic legacy. Central Java is one of the many region/province arts that is so poor that even Bill Moon's Indonesia Handbook 1985 edition shines in comparison... I might have misunderstood you - did you prefer a real stub - or something like these two? forgive me if I am foggy in my interpretation of your message SatuSuro 13:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Re ricklefs and other things - If I could communicate with you by email at all? You are most welcome to email me - its up to you, email this user works for me. I am verging on trying to not wear my biog on my talk messages so much... :) SatuSuro 13:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC) It will make sense, however a response on the most useful texts re Indonesian history will bring out my personal connections with some of the big names - and I would not prefer to have that in this golfishbowl. SatuSuro 14:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see us complete articles for all of the international airports in Indonesia - List of airports in Indonesia. If we each took on 1 or 2 articles I think this would just about cover it, since not all the airports listed on that page are international. A variation on the usual focus on 1 article approach, but I think airport details are an important resource to have (especially when I plan for the next holiday to Id :-). Expanding the coverage also helps to boost the rank of the existing airport pages in Google due to the interlinks ;-) (MichaelJLowe 14:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

I don't get any kicks reading airport articles either, but they can become a useful resource for planning holidays. Re: Garuda, no problems at all with removing excess commercial guff. Re: Rumah Gadang, if you have any info, please pass it on. Your info about the regents/chiefs does not match my understanding. Minang society is egalitarian and democratic and there isn't such a hierachial distinction. You can see some old pictures of my wife's RG here [6], and their immediate family are not chiefs (datuk and penghulu as they are known). There is a recent trend for Minangs to build western style homes which have the Minang roof, and these cannot be called rumah gadang. There are many architectural elements a rumah gadang must conform to to be called a rumah gadang, including floorplan, etc. There is a variation of rumah gadang which is used as a village council hall. All will be made clear (hopefully) when I get back to finishing the article :-) Lastly, I live in Sydney. Haven't lived in Id as yet. (MichaelJLowe 14:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

Yes, Joyce is my wife. I visited Java (Jkt, Bogor, Yogya) for the first time last year and love it. My wife is more interested in Javanese culture than Minang, lol. Re: architecture, I regret not having more time at Taman Mini to see all the different styles. Only got to go in the Toraja house due to "family issues" :-( —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MichaelJLowe (talk • contribs) 16:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Paul Oakenfold and the Zoo TV tour

Hello, just curious about your decision to remove the factoid that Paul Oakenfold appeared throughout the Zoo TV tour as an opening act. Seeing as he's one of the most famous dance music celebrities of all time, I certainly think his continued presence on the tour is a significant aspect! I was also confused by your comment that "he's already wikilinked". What did you mean by that? I see no connection on any page in all of Wikipedia between Oakenfold and the Zoo TV tour. --Ecksemmess 14:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

In regard to your question of which legs of the tour he appeared on, I'm hesitant to say with 100% certainty that it was all of them, but the sources I've seen are in agreement that at the very least he was there throughout 1993 and in the latter part of '92 as well. --Ecksemmess 14:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:PID

Selected biography is needed to be updated there, but I don't know who is going to be. Hatta? Actually, I'm a bit reluctant with selected biography, because the biography is usually treated as an article. How about removing that section, so we only have selected pictures and selected articles? Just my 2 cents. — Indon (reply) — 14:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Can I request the Weh Island article to be the next Selected Article for the portal? It was just recently granted GA. Thanks. — Indon (reply) — 11:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, now we have more people mantaining the portal. It's a good news. I'll try to mantain the DYK & update selected pictures, Bwmodular in the news and you get the remaining.. hehehe. — Indon (reply) — 15:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

but the less talkative guys - the silent ones - they probably can be slowly dragged in? SatuSuro 23:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rumah Gadang

The academic papers I have translate ijuk as "palm-fibre thatch". Will try to find out more. It has been mostly replaced by metal or tiled roofs. The rumah gadang is the rumah adat of the minang, there isn't any other. They vary in size depending upon how many women live there - each married woman in the matrilineage is provided a bedroom. According to adat they should have at least 5 bedrooms and the ideal number is 9. The unmarried children sleep in the common room, and in older times teenage boys slept in the village surau. So they are communal in a sense, but everyone is part of the same family. (MichaelJLowe 17:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Larry Mullen Jr

The edit to the Larry Mullen Jr page was to match the pages for Clayton and the Edge (Bono is locked). This was your original edit which you did not apply across the board. Shouldn't you make the same edit to all articles for consistency? 86.17.247.135 19:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article in need of cleanup - please assist if you can

[edit] U2 image

Hey there, if Image:U2photo.jpg does get deleted, do you want to contact (or have you already contacted) the author of those images on Flickr, or would you like me to? If it gets deleted, I'll put the Madison Square one up and then if you don't respond soon, I'll send a message myself. —ShadowHalo 20:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Awesome, I'm glad there's a better image. As far as emailing the company, I've actually been wondering myself if a company would be willing to do that. It seems like it might be in their best interest to have a better image on such a frequently used site as Wikipedia. So it'd be awesome for you to email them (I'm sure one of the formal letters at WP:ERP would work). I'm not sure exactly who one would email, but there's probably a link somewhere on U2's website. I'm probably as unsure as you are about something like this, but the users at Wikipedia talk:Example requests for permission might be helpful too. —ShadowHalo 23:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to say I don't think that'll be a problem. The opening's a little weak, but the article itself is pretty thorough and well-referenced. Has someone nominated it for GA status yet? —ShadowHalo 23:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

☻ Someone has poured you tea ☺

Thanks for turning what almost became an edit war into a productive, positive discussion. —ShadowHalo 19:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The image was recently deleted, so I added the one from Madison Square. You said you had a free image that was even better, so you should upload it at the Wikimedia Commons and replace the Madison Square picture. —ShadowHalo 03:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Borobudur

I've just added some further refs (standards from the old days) - and I seemed to skip the lesson in reducing type size (a bit slow I know) - could you help please? SatuSuro 13:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey - I see the validity of the Indonesian language issue as being as important - I have no problem if my suggestions are dropped for some other time (my Indonesian grammar is atrocious) - no big deal. Just as long as we get some new participants rather than the long suffering regulars - I suppose that's my hope - more than anything else... the project needs more to spread the effort around - when I see the amount of work you, Indon and Michael put in - I am quite impressed - all I seem tobe able to do now that my teenagers are putting demands on me - is the irregular wpi tags on talk pages and coping with school holiday influx on some arts. thems the breaks! SatuSuro 13:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont seem to have had a response on the borobudur further reading readuycing text size thingy - does that mean you folks didnt want to reduce it in size? SatuSuro 13:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I could add about another 6 of the same vintage or earlier - what do yopu think? SatuSuro 13:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sunday Bloody Sunday (song): now a FAC

Just FYI, since I've spotted your name frequently around U2-related articles, I've placed Sunday Bloody Sunday on the list of Featured article candidates. Check out the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sunday Bloody Sunday (song). Perhaps I'm being overzealous, but I think it's in pretty good shape. Let's get a U2-related article to featured status! McMillin24 _contribs^talk 00:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You're right, it wasn't played in Sydney--I was a little hasty in referencing those guitar uses. I'm thinking we probably don't need the guitar information at all, actually--it doesn't add much to the article and doesn't really fall into its scope. Thoughts? McMillin24 _contribs^talk 18:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indonesia's Structure & Affiliation section

Hi, I've tried to read again the Structe and Affiliation section and I think there is still some lacks of smooth flow between paragraphs. The last two paragraphs are a bit odd. So I rewrite that section and added some references. Could you please read in User:Indon/sandbox2 and give me your comments? Thanks. — Indon (reply) — 10:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry that I have to go before.

• Pushing down the president was not in purpose. I guess it does not matter if the president paragraph is given first.
• Re starting about recent history (downfall of Suharto), I think it is a good intro to say that Indonesia's political structure now has been revamped into much better democracy. Don't you think so?
• Right, MPR is just like a joint-session between DPR & DPD now. Have read the paper I'd sent you? It's a good one. A lecturer from Unpad Bandung who is studying at Melbourne now for her PhD.
• ASEAN & etc., I think it's a bit odd and it does not belong to the section. It does not have its own merit in the article, I think.
• Military? You are right.
• Re including a monopoly of the production of statutes without executive branch interventions, all members are now elected and some fundamental rights exclusive for DPR, it is taken from the paper. It only describes what DPR role that has been increased markedly. Perhaps the "monopoly" term should be replaced with a better one.

Okay, I think I am going to put the sandbox into the article. I will let the military paragraph there, but will remove the ASEAN paragraph. Thanks for your comment. I will let you know if I'd transfered to the article. — Indon (reply) — 14:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. I changed also the monopoly term, but please copyedit further if you think something is not good enough. — Indon (reply) — 14:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Are you following me?

I've been working on U2 songs off and on for some time and have a number of them on my watchlist. When you went on your editing splurge, I saw that, and took advantage of some of your first passes on other songs to do my own second pass in some cases. That said, it's all likely a waste; without constant attention they will soon devolve back into a primordial state of nature. Wasted Time R 13:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I will echo what you said — WP is definitely improved for your editing efforts, even if I sometimes disagree with aspects of your editing philosophy. Wasted Time R 13:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)