Talk:Merano

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[edit] Article name

Shouldn't this be at Merano instead of Meran-Merano? Wiki naming policy is to have the official name listed- as the city is in Italy, this would therefore be the Italian name. The intro would therefore read "Merano (German: Meran) is a city..." Of course, the German-population majority would also be listed. Olessi 15:17, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

That move would also affect the other Category:Towns in South Tyrol. Both German and Italian are official languages in South Tyrol. This bilingual naming system looks like it has been the result of an edit war, I don't know. It would be a lot easier if there would be common English names for these towns, like Brussels. For a similar situation see the municipalities in the Brussels-Capital Region of Belgium, they're officially bilingual French/Dutch, but apparently all the articles are at the French names. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I guess it looks more professional than Meran-Merano etc. Markussep 16:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I was not aware that the other South Tyrolian localities had the same naming style. IMO, simply Merano is best for the article name, but I don't want to cause an edit war. The current system has led to some interesting names, like Lana-Lana. Olessi 17:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I would also say keep the current double-name format, we do not want to start an editing war over language, Wikipedia is not the place for such things. Gryffindor 09:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Just call it Meran, most South Tirolers would call it that. Plus German is an official language of South Tyrol.


The statements found in this article regarding language use in that part of Tyrol formerly belonging to Austria are not correct.

Check the 'History' chapter:

'Nevertheless, all originally tyrolean geographic names were prohibited and exchanged through Italianised names (even surnames lost their validity until World War II). After 1945, it became one of the most important sites of tourism in the region.'

Now go to

[1],

chapter 'Today' and compare. According to my knowledge, what the author says there about the status of the respective languages reflects the situation.

In other words: The dominating language is german, and so the german names have survived - also officially. There is an italian minority, and they use their italian names for the places.

What about correcting the language statements in the Meran article?


Michael Laudahn 17:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested moves to Merano and Merano-Meran

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. There is clearly large opposition to both of the proposed moves. — Mets501  (talk)  19:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move to Merano

Meran-Merano → Merano – See also the survey at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. There is a majority for the Italian name "Merano", but "Meran" also has its merits. Both are currently redirects with edit history. Markussep 09:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC) Markussep 09:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Oppose: double names are the norm in South Tyrol.--Panarjedde 11:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Double names cause unnecessary confusion, see the discussion at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol (I guess you missed that one?). There's a majority against double names (including your late vote 62% against double names). No serious encyclopedia has these bilingual article titles, the place for (relevant) alternative names is in the first line of the article. Markussep 14:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose I totally oppose any "Merano" form. Considering the majority of the population is German-speaking, this is really not necessary. Gryffindor 12:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
It's a very small majority (German:Italian:Ladin=51.5:48.0:0.5), but you're right about that. However, "Meran" would be my second choice, because "Merano" is (2-3 times) more used in English.Markussep 19:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support as nominator. Markussep 14:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support "Europe - In absence of a common English name, the current local name of the city should be used." (from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)); this applies to all Southtyrolean cities, which should be all Italian.--Supparluca 12:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. As per agreement on Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. Asteriontalk 14:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose: I fully agree width Panarjedde (first message in this threat). DieterFink 07:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. It's one or the other, not both. -  AjaxSmack  07:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support The English usage here is discussed at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol; I think the evidence is clear that Merano is more common. Meran would also be acceptable, but not preferred; the hyphenated name is against policy, and does not settle arguments over which goes first. Septentrionalis 19:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support (both Meran and Merano are acceptable to me in this case, but not the hyphenated names). Eugène van der Pijll 08:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose While I agree that double names are horrible to behold (not to mention that neither Québec nor Belgian cities needed such a solution), I definitely think Meran should be preferred. As mentioned, there's a tradition of English usage dating as back as 1924 for the Meran variation in the Slav Defence to the Queen's Gambit, counting scores of books and probably hundreds of articles. And living usage should be a determining factor in naming an encyclopedic entry - at least it was in Wiki, last time I checked. --Tridentinus 11:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • strongly Oppose AK Tridentinus--Martin Se 11:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

Copied from Talk:Communes of South Tyrol:

  • Google: 858,000 English hits for Merano without Meran; 326,000 for Meran without Merano. Meran appears also to be ambiguous with Hotel Meran in Prague, the Meran variation of the Semi-Slav Defense in chess, and a Kurdish proper name. Two of these are presumably named after Meran, but one of them testifies to Czech usage, not English. I see no correspionding confusion for Merano.
  • Linguistic affiliation: 51% German by the census.
  • Survey: no specific comments on the subject, so far.
Well if you want to go by linguistic affiliation, this one would have to be at "Meran" if it's 51% German speaking. Otherwise this whole new policy is going to be full of holes and discrepancies. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I suggest using Merano only in this case, because is the second biggest city in South Tyrol and one of the few well known in other parts of Italy. --Σω 07:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I tend to agree; this is a case where English usage can be shown. Septentrionalis 15:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Why should it be Merano if the majority is German-speaking? Gryffindor 20:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Because it seems to be the English language name for the city. In the same way, we say Prague and Vienna, not Praha or Wien. --Asteriontalk 20:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The "English" language name? You mean the Italian probably. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Asterion means, and I know I do, the English name, the name commonly used in English prose; just as the English name of Rome is Rome and the English name of Paris is Paris. Septentrionalis 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Requested move to Merano-Meran

Meran-Merano → Merano-Meran – In the Province of Bolzano/Bozen, being that it is Italian-German, every town is listed with both names. This is similar to French Canada. Any road sign will show Bolzano-Bozen. It is Italy, so it is Italian name-German name. It is just an order of names, it doesn't mean either is less! But we should be correct, above all. All the towns in Bolzano/Bozen are listed this way, and should be listed this way. thanks Taalo 04:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Strongly oppose I see no reason to abandon English usage, which uses Meran and Merano, but not this pointless hyphenation. If this had any merit, it would be to satisfy both sides, and provide a stable name. But it plainly doesn't. Septentrionalis 19:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose "Europe - In absence of a common English name, the current local name of the city should be used." (from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)); this applies to all Southtyrolean cities, which should be all Italian.--Supparluca 19:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose No serious encyclopedia has double names for article titles, because it's ambiguous and confusing. Francophone Canada is a nice example: I don't know of one single place in Canada that has a bilingual title here (or in any encyclopedia). Markussep 19:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It's Bolzano or Bozen, not both. See Helsinki and Luxembourg (city) for similar cases and save hyphens for cities that actually use them like Sekondi-Takoradi. (And why couldn't this have waited a couple of days until the above RM was concluded?) -  AjaxSmack  19:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose: let it where it is (Oppose also Superluca who seems to be an Italian nationalist and Markussep and AjaxSmack who dont know the situation in Meran-Merano)--Martin Se 11:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks (also for mispelling my nickname). Maybe you can read the last paragraph of this discussion ("The way!") and learn to be neutral.--Supparluca 12:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I referred to the commune statute (here: [2]) from the official commune site.[3] In no place is "Meran-Merano" or "Merano-Meran" used. -  AjaxSmack  16:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

Look at the Merano-Meran city website. See how nicely they can put the German and Italian on each side, actually alternating the content. Seems the water there makes people a bit more relaxed than on WP. LOL. Taalo 09:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.comune.merano.bz.it/

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Merano. There was really no consensus on Meran vs Merano, but basically no one wants the double name, so I had to choose. I read all of the discussion below, and there is no hint of agreemen anywhere. What really swayed me towards Merano was two things: one vote for Meran and against Merano was by an anon whose only edit was to this page, making me believe it may be a single purpose "account", and the fact that this city is in fact in Italy, so no one can really object to it being called by the Italian name. —Mets501 (talk) 01:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strawpoll for new name

Since the previous two requested move surveys failed, I propose a strawpoll for the new name. The current name of the article, "Meran-Merano", is a combination of the German name ("Meran") and the Italian name ("Merano"). This type of bilingual naming was found to be undesirable in a recent survey at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. The four most plausible options are listed below, please cast your votes. Markussep 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Meran (4-2)

  • Support (either this or Merano, I have no real preference). Markussep 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose--Supparluca 07:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support since majority is German-speaking and this would be in line with the new guidelines. Gryffindor 17:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose going by language majority is sort of ridiculous. that means constant updating every year. It is Italy, list Italian first. Taalo 17:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support like Gryffindor.Stefan T. 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support any single name. -  AjaxSmack  05:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • 51.50% Support. I was going to suggest a coin flip instead, but if a fair principle was established, it should be followed to the end. Heck, some presidential elections were decided on less than that. Duja 13:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Merano (4-2)

  • Support. Markussep 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support the only solution is to apply the naming conventions.--Supparluca 07:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Gryffindor 17:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support single name, Italian city. Taalo 17:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Stefan T. 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support any single name. -  AjaxSmack  05:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • 48.50% Oppose, see above. Duja 13:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Meran-Merano (current name) (1-5)

  • Oppose. Markussep 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose--Supparluca 07:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Gryffindor 17:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose worst solution. Taalo 17:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Stefan T. 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose any double name. -  AjaxSmack  05:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose any double name. Duja 13:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Merano-Meran (0-6)

  • Oppose. Markussep 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose--Supparluca 07:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Gryffindor 17:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose fine, no double names. Taalo 17:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Stefan T. 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose any double name. -  AjaxSmack  05:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose any double name. Duja 13:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

Why are doing this page by page actually? Lets just discuss the naming convention globally, no? Taalo 18:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a perfectly fine rule for places in South Tyrol. Use the most commonly used name in English, and if there isn't any, take the local majority name. There's only 1 census every 10 years, so we wouldn't have to change so often. Markussep 18:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
But Markussep, this is really going against what is used all over Wikipedia. People brought this up to me when I was hoping for double names. They mentioned Belgium, etc., etc. So we shouldn't go and start coming up with things like this. If we go with single names, it should simply be the Italian name with appropriate redirects and translations in the page (using again Bolzano as an example). Anyway, we can argue about this until we turn blue, right? :-) That is why I'd like to get a neutral opinion, and why I really favour that offer of mediation. I'd like to see what someone says after looking at the data objectively. I noticed you speak German very well, you don't think that might influence you a bit? I realize I'm probably biased as well, considering my background. That is why I'm trying to really consider what is a proper solution, and even like better the idea of some neutral mediator. take care. Taalo 18:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Belgium, Switzerland, Finland etc. etc. are fine examples of how using the local majority language does work. But well, let's give Lar a try. Markussep 19:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I'll look into those pages some later this evening. Anyway, yes, I'm rather relieved to have someone neutral just figure out a solution and be done with it. Uncool move on the mediation discussion, doesn't help move things forward. But whatever.. :P~~ Taalo 21:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Both names (Meran and Merano) are commonly used in English. Both are official names, as South Tyrol (of which Meran(o) is the second city) is officially bilingual. Google shows a slight preference (about 2-3x) for Merano in English usage. According to the 2001 census, the majority of the population of the municipality of Meran considers itself German-speaking (51.5%, Italian-speaking 48.0%, Ladin-speaking 0.5%). Markussep 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Supparluca, I don't think the naming conventions lead us directly to choosing the Italian name. From WP:NC: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." I don't see anything else that's applicable here. Meran and Merano are both frequently used in English, and both easily recognisable. Did I overlook something? Markussep 17:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

From a logical point of view, the fact that Merano is in Italy means that the majority of English speakers would most easily recognise the Italian name. From a "just stick to the naming conventions to avoid any possible controversy or ambiguity/inconsistency" point of view (in my opinion, the best way), the naming conventions say that if there isn't a common English name, you should use the current local name. This solves the Southtyrolean issue, and nobody would think that the Italian/German/Ladin name was chosen because Italian/German/Ladin is better.--Supparluca 20:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
"The fact that Merano is in Italy means that the majority of English speakers would most easily recognise the Italian name". That the shittiest (sorry for this word) argument you can give. Such a criterium is completely not objective. Can you represent all English speaking (or perhaps better: English reading) people of the world? Tubantia 22:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Sadly, it seems that the majority of wikipedians can't be neutral on this topic, and tend to accuse immediately who tries to use the logic.--Supparluca 22:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not accusing at all. I even apologised already for the s-word above. But now you are exactly making the point I wanted to make. When I see your username, I think you are Italian (or at least of Italian ancestry), so how can you be neutral on this topic? I just don't think that anyone can tell what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognise, the German or the Italian name. That's an opinion, predominantly based on being on one of the either sides in the Southtyrolean issue. But you are already stating it like a fact, and I think you should be careful with those terms. When you can prove that the majority of English speakers use Merano in stead of Meran, you have my blessing to change the name of the article. Tubantia 22:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Funny, immediately seeing your comment towards Supparluca, I said to myself, "hmm, I hope this is not a German, or we just further enforce this same boring pattern". Tada, I check out your user page: thanks for keeping things predictable at least! :P~~ Come on, that comment towards Supparluca was totally uncalled for. Actually Supparluca is correct technically. Wikipedia is supposed to use what is most commonly used in English. It doesn't matter at all what the locals do/think/feel. If you merely take the time to search Google (which is about the easiest way to show what the majority of English speakers use) for regions/provinces/cities of Italy, for lesser known towns they always use Italian, full stop. Anyway, this just makes me feel even more thankful that we have that fellow who is willing to mediate/decide all this for us -- if anything so these boring conversations can end. By the way, why don't you "prove that the majority of English speakers use Meran in stead of Merano". Either way is a challenge, putting the burden on one way or the other is utterly asinine. Not to mention that considering this is Italy, one can easily argue the burden of proof weights on you. ciao bello! Taalo 03:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
By the way, the "suppar" part of my nickname is a sort of German dialect pronunciation of "super". But you know, if you suggest to use the German names you are neutral, if you suggest to use the Italian names you are fascist (this is not an accusation on you)--Supparluca 04:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Really, it was not my intention to insult anybody. Perhaps I should have written a larger comment initially, then my words would not have been explained like they have now. Or I should not have used the s-word, but I could not find a better alternative that quickly. My point is that too many Wikipedians are stating things like they are facts without having clear evidence; I really do not see the "logic" in this sentence. In the same way you could plead that it should be Meran, because Milano also becomes Milan in English, and Meran is probably easier to pronounce. But that is the my "logic", as a non-native English speaker, so I think that does not make a big difference. But hey, let's forget about it, I think I am not able to give my opinion correctly, probably due to my lack of the English language. I should write English more carefully, that is for sure. And about my German ancestry: yes, that is the 11th generation of my ancestors, living just across the Dutch-German border. So my "Germanity" is close to nil. But I am aware of the fact that I might not be neutral in this discussion and that is the reason why I will not vote. Take care you all, Tubantia 07:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for my reaction, I was just tired to see how the people who try to give some logical reasoning in favour of the Italian names are immediately accused of suppressing the minorities, see for example talk:Bolzano and talk:Adige, but in fact you didn't.--Supparluca 14:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
When you search for Merano and Meran in Google by the way, there is 1) a lot of interference of other languages, even when searching for pages in English 2) obscurity about the number of articles of Italian or German origin, respectively. I can imagine that Germanspeaking people in South Tyrol tend to use Meran, and the Italianspeaking Merano. Let me make clear: I am not really pro-Meran or pro-Merano, I only think there should be proper base for renaming this article, as it will have consequences for all articles concerning South Tyrol. I might not be neutral, because I would tend to using the German name, because of the majority of people speaking the language and the fact that a lot of the Italian South Tyrolean names are pure fabrications. Tubantia 12:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is this talkpage in reverse order of all others (regressing instead of progressing)? -  AjaxSmack  05:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I've fixed it. —Mets501 (talk) 01:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] the magority of Meran is german speeking

I want to move Merano to Merano-Meran or Meran becose the magority of the popolation speecs German--Martin Se 09:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The majority of the population of Rome is Italian but the city is named Rome and not Roma. That's because in wikipedia you use the English name, not the name used by the majority of the population.--Supparluca 09:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This was debated long and hard (along with all South Tyrol town articles), please see above. All double names were rejected, and Meran(o) was the closest call, and it was more or less a coin toss (slim German-speaking majority vs. slim prevalence of Merano in English usage). Please refrain from unilateral moves. Duja 10:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I know and I'am very angry for this, but if You will create e convention about naming in South Tyrol You will have to listen to as South Tyrolean. We know the conventions in the RL and also the lows and the history, many italian users including user:Supparluca d'ont know nothing. Meran has alltimes been Meran and from 1919 some people used also Merano.
There are no english Names for places in South Tyrol (only South Tyrol and Dolomites)--Martin Se
Thank you for your personal attack. I really appreciate that. And please don't turn around Duja's words as you did adding a ":" to his post.--Supparluca 17:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This is false, Merano was not a name invented in 1919. It was a name allowed to be used officially after centuries of Austrian control of the region. You need to learn to share my friend. Taalo 01:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
The majority in question is 51%; I'm underwhelmed. Persuade me that English usage does not exist, and I will consider this. Septentrionalis 19:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Witch one is English for You, Meran or Merano, I d'ont know, Meran is German and Merano ist Italian--Martin Se 11:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Ah, but is it really "German"? Or is it the name that is used in German. The basis of his name/word is in Latin (i.e. Roman). Also, are you aware what word is used in Ladin, Nones, etc.? Taalo 00:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Both are English names; Merano appears to be more common. Persuade me otherwise. Septentrionalis 20:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Heh heh, in Nones it is indeed 'Meran', take my word. :) I take the chance to reiterate that Meran has 80+ years of tradition of being called Meran in print and word in the chess community - see Semi Slav Defense if you don't believe me. Also, the German speaking community there may enjoy only a slight majority, but it's a majority anyway: if there's a principle (granted, I'm not sure what Lar is thinking right now), why not follow it? Regards, Tridentinus 00:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I thought so. LOL My Nones is not so bad afterall. :-) This is a critical point that a lot of the "Germans" maybe do not realize. They are using these names like Meran and Brenner, claiming they are German, that we must protect and have German, etc., etc. But the irony of it all is these words are not really German, they are used in German. Much as Milan is not English, it is used in English. I think that Italian dialects (and lets not get into the debate of what a dialect is) such as Nones, Ladin, etc. are almost like an older form of Romance language, something a bit closer to Latin. Italian has "evolved" to have many vowels at the end of words now; Nones/Ladin/etc. do not. The most hilarious thing is that because modern Italian has put vowels at the end of names, it is being used as an excuse that "Italy" has somehow tossed away its historical ties to these places? Now what happens is that as time went by Meran had the "o" added to Italianize it. But it was not a cultural Italianization, it was a LINGUAL one. The origins of the names of Brennero and Merano are from Latin and from the Romans. The names Brenner and Meran are in fact Italian names as well, not in the strict sense of the modern Italian language, but definitely culturally. Anyway, I'm not making this discussion to make claims for the flag of Italy, or who ever, I just find it all very interesting. Tridentinus, don't kill be for going off topic now. But in the Val di Non (itself with no vowel!) we have Casez, Cles, Dambel, etc. without vowels. Then there are towns like Coredo, Fondo, Romeno, Sarnonico. In Nones is Fondo just Fond? I seem to remember Sarnonico is Sarnonic? Taalo 18:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
One more item, with respect to what to call it. Why I don't like using this majority rule, is you still don't know what people really call it. In Trentino-Alto Adige, if many people are speaking their Italian dialects, well then BY FAR everyone is saying Meran (for example) in their daily language. Same with the other cities throughout the region. But how can you really quantify this? With census data -- no. The thing is above all we are supposed to use English words, right? I will argue there are no translations for any of these towns in English, and that by far the references you find just show the Italian names, Bolzano, Trento, Fondo, Merano, etc. I know my friend Fantasy hates to hear this, but yes, "because they are in Italy". :-) But I think it is very fair to say that no one is trying to erase the older forms of the names like Meran, Bolzan, Bulsan (or the German Bozen). To me all these names are important.. because they ARE Italian.. and they are German used as well.
Your ideas about the etymology of place names are interesting, but I would like to see some proof. I agree that some names apparently have a Latin/Romance root (Meran, Bolzano, Sexten), but, so have many common words in German (Keller, Zimmer), and many place names in South Tyrol are obviously German, like Niederdorf, Mühlwald, Brenner. You're not going to claim that they're Austrian translations of original Italian or Latin names, are you? Also, something interesting from italian wikipedia: "Gli italiani di Bolzano non possiedono un proprio dialetto regionale anche se nella lingua italiana parlata a Bolzano esiste un substrato veneto-trentino. Molti parlano l'idioma della regione d'origine (soprattutto il veneto e il trentino)." I guess it means that there is not really a local Italian dialect in Bolzano, but since many of the Italians who moved there after WW1 were from Veneto and Trentino, this influences the Italian spoken in Bolzano. I think what you're writing about leaving out the final vowel in local dialect etc. really applies to (some areas of) Trentino, not South Tyrol (except the Ladin valleys). Markussep 19:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not really trying to derive the specific origin of the words, I'm just saying that a lot of these names we are talking about are in fact "Italian". I just thought that point was a bit ironic. Funny the ones you mentioned as obvious. The first two, yes, definitely agree with you. But Brenner is just as Meran, a Latin-based name. The local Italian dialects will also call it Brenner. It was named by the Romans afterall; after the local tribe they called the Brennii (shows this also right here on Wikipedia). Also, remember again that the local people and dialects spoken here originally were the languages like Ladin, Nones, etc. The "Germans" came in afterwards and Germanized this region, in particular the Province of Bolzano/Bozen particularly. Then some "Italians" came in again. Above all, there is a large percentage of the people that have just been along for the ride. Someone may claim they are "German", where in fact they were likely Germanized a couple centuries ago. Is this bad or good, wrong or right? No, it is just the history of the region, and maybe should get it into a few more people to share. Just my thoughts. :-) Taalo 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Taalo, your reasoning goes totally against etymology. The Latin words had the endings, they were kept in Italian, but dropped in Ladin. For example: Latin: mundus, Italian: mondo, Ladin: monn. Latin: filius, Italian: figlio, Ladin: fi. Latin: osteum, Italian: osso, Ladin: os.   Andreas   (T) 19:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I am no expert on languages. I was making a discussion only as a novice, hence having to ask my neighbor what the words were in Nones. My main point, if you look back, was just that because the vowels are not there, does not mean it is not Italian. Your own examples help show this! Anyway, the view I was putting forth was only that the names of the cities, such as Meran, are "Italian" in fact. regards. Taalo 21:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
By the way, since apparently you may know this: Do you know for certain the progression wasn't osteum => os => osso? It wasn't this progression I was originally interested in though, which I'm assuming isn't so linear. I was merely trying to explain that in the local dialects they don't include the vowels. It doesn't need to be a more complex discussion than that -- it is just to make the other people aware that Meran (without the o) is in fact an "Italian" word as well. Taalo 21:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, Meran didn't even exist in the Roman era. What's your proof that the name comes from Italian? BTW Ladin is not an Italian dialect! Markussep 22:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know calling Ladin a dialect is very debatable -- and it is not a debate I want to get into right now. If anything, because like I said before, I am no professor of language studies. The thing that you must be aware of though is that there are many "dialects" such as Ladin spoken throughout this region. I mention Nones that is spoken in the Val di Non, there is a dialect in Val di Sole, etc. While Ladin/Nones/etc. are not dialects of the language Italian in the strict sense of the word; they are however very much Italian (possessive) dialects/languages/what-have-you -- as in local languages of the Italian people. I'm sure someone will now say that "Ladins" don't consider themselves "Italian". This, in my opinion is hogwash. It is the same if a "Nones" said they are not Italian, or if Napolitano said he/she is not Italian. Trust me, you will find people in all these areas that will say just so! As far as how we got to the actual word Meran(o), shoot, your guess is as good as mine. My point once again, a simple one at that, is just that the word Meran itself is "Italian". My family is from the Val di Non for centuries, a lot of people use Nones in daily life. If they say Meran -- they are not speaking German. So I'm just pointing out that since it is used in German, doesn't necessarily mean it is German. *yawn*  :-) ps. I didn't say (or mean to say) that the word Meran comes from Italian (the language). You have to understand more the dynamics of languages in Italy though.. the thousands of local "dialects" (oops, not dialects, oh, yes dialects, argg, whatever) :-) regards. Taalo 22:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
As an aside, on the it.wiki Merano page they have: "Il toponimo è attestato come Mairania nel 857 e deriva dal nome di persona latino Marius, col significato di "terreno di Mario". I don't know, I'd almost guess that it went from Mairan(ia) to Meran(o) by some spelling errors along the years. LOL. Taalo 22:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
If by "Italian" you mean any language spoken in Italy, that includes French and German (and Albanian, Arab, Polish etc.) as well. I'll believe that most South Tyroleans (also the German speakers) consider themselves Italian nowadays, but that doesn't make Meran an "Italian language" name per se. The Nones and Ladin names for Meran are not very relevant, and I don't think there's a real local Italian (or Ladin/Romansh) dialect in Meran, same as for Bolzano mentioned above. Markussep 22:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
You are knitpicking my friend. You mention languages spoken in Italy, and I see where you are trying to go with this counter-argument. However, there is a difference from French, Arabic, et al. being spoken in Italy and the local/regional languages. Then again, to be fair, many of these local "dialects" have been influenced from non-Latin languages (i.e. Greek, Albanian, etc.). Anyway, Nones/Ladin/etc. are just one amongst many local Italian languages with a core root in Latin (i.e. Rome). With regards to the city proper of Merano and Bolzano, I really don't know how much people speak the "dialects" there. I think people more often speak "dialect" in the villages and surrounding valleys. Anyway, I really didn't want to get so technical into things. I just wanted to point out that the name Meran is also in fact a word used in Italian (possessive) languages. These "dialects" (Alp Latin??) were in the region well before German came in. This also goes back to a comment I saw Martin Se make that "Italians" were never in the area until after WWI. This is massive rubbish. The concept itself of "Italy" is very recent, the people however just didn't appear out of thin air. Taalo 23:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
The people in Meran originaly appeared from the nord (germany) being the region almost deserted after the migration period.
And Taalo is leading a personal war against me (massive nonesence) and my ladin and romansh ancestors (both grandfathers) are rotating in the tomb being called Italians--Martin Se 16:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
What?? I'm leading a personal war against you? Dude, you came on here ranting and raving this past week and made your volcano on your user page.. and now you say I'm leading a personal war against you? I'm telling you that you should merely relax. Yeah, some people arrived in Merano from Germany a few hundred years ago, just like some people arrived from Rome 2000 years ago. It is all fine. You can say your grandfathers are rotating in their grave, crude as it may be. I know for sure that my Nones grandfathers would simply be sad that a few can be so naive as to say what you have said "rotating in the tomb being called Italians". How bloody tiresome are these type of statements?? I will be the first to say the people are first Ladin (or Nones, etc), then from this region, but finally they are "Italians". Sorry, but I find it extremely boring hearing people from Sardegna or Napoli or Sicily or Venice saying things like this. It is in fact a racism of people who don't want to be associated with their own brothers, sisters, and cousins. That is exactly why my grandfathers would be sad. ciao bello. Taalo 18:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I got more for you. Yeah, my family has been from the Val di Non for as far as we can go back -- going well back before "Germans" came down from the North. I have some Austrian blood because of these new neighbors and I'm as proud of that as the blood that comes from the South -- from Rome. Why shouldn't I? We are all humans after all -- I think!?! One of my Nones grandfathers would literally blow his top when he heard people talking bad about the "Italians" of the deep south. He felt this sort of behavior was disgusting, racist, and spitting in the face of your greater family. My other grandfather was a POW overseas during a good part of WWII and he carved out the the Italian peninsula by hand from a piece of tin an American officer gave him because he missed his home so much. That is what my grandparents were up to. Not rotating around offended because someone dares call them Italians... Taalo 18:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
You (Taalo) don't have to invent names like "Alp Latin", because there is already a name for languages like Ladin and Nones: Rhaeto-Romance languages. "Real" Italian is in another subfamily of Romance languanges. Ladin is spoken in a few valleys in (southeastern) South Tyrol, Trentino and the province of Belluno, and practically not spoken outside those valleys. As Martin says, Meran (and adjacent Vinschgau, Passeiertal) was predominantly German before WW1. You're right, Italians (and I mean people who speak one of the Italian dialects) didn't appear out of thin air, they came from Bolzano (had a small Italian minority before WW1), Trentino, Veneto, and lots of other areas. I'm disappointed that you make some controversial statements and then say "I really didn't want to get so technical into things" when asked for evidence. That's not a basis for a useful discussion. Markussep 17:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Dude, you really have a talent for being abrasive. First, I did not invent the name "Alp Latin". I asked a question, hence the question marks. See them, there are two of them right there above. I have heard these languages referred to as Alp Latin or Latin of the Alps. Yes, it isn't the scientific name, it is probably a laymans term. Nonetheless, I didn't invent it. Real Italian is the national language of the Republic of Italy. It is one of thousands of languages spoke in Italy. Yes, Ladin is spoken in a small area. Nones is spoken in a small area. The language/dialects of Cremona are spoke in those small areas. You can go literally valley to valley and town to town across the entire Italian peninsula and find 100s upon 1000s of dialects. Man, your last statement is just offensive. I'm not writing a scientific journal here, I'm just discussing my take on things. I say Meran is an Italian name, and you come out and yell "prove it!". If you have any scientific reasoning yourself, why don't you ask yourself "why don't I prove first that it is German". *rolls eyes* I'm disappointed that you can't just carry on a relaxed conversation without coming out with this paragraph above. You all have an extreme misconception of "Italians". Italy and Italians is an extremely broad and loose term. People from Trento are no more -- or no less -- Italian than people from Naples or Perugia. If you all want to try and divide and conquer "Italy" in order to make a claim on various bits of land.. well that is pretty petty in my opinion. Germans came in from the north in the 17th century. Germans were a majority before WW1. But did you ever think consider there were years previous as well?? From two-thousand years ago this was an "Italian/Latin/whatever" area, no matter how you like to twist it around. The irony is you like to argue that "Italians" came in and revised things, but you then put your head in the ground when the discussion goes back to the same thing that was done to the people living here originally. Shameful. Taalo 18:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I think we have different views on relaxed conversations. Whatever, I'm going to end (my contribution to) this one, it's leading nowhere anyway. BTW Germans came long before the 17th century, 6th-9th century's more like it. Markussep 19:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, from the sentence you wrote to me earlier today -- we do indeed have a different view. "BTW Germans came long before the 17th century, 6th-9th century's more like it." Oh, really? prove it! You're method is nice and relaxed, isn't it? Listen, Roman-Latin/Germanic/whatever people have been showing up for centuries. But as people came in during these centuries, it was building on people there previously, and on and on. I suppose you'd really love to imagine that South Tyrol is this ethnically pure "German" land, to that I also say -- whatever. We all came from Africa in the end... ;] ciao ciao. Taalo 20:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Read this: it:Storia dell'Alto Adige. And I never claimed anything about ethnic purity, those are your words. Markussep 20:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, welcome back. So then what is your problem? People have been coming over and camping out for thousands of years. I just don't like statements like "Italians" are here only for 90 years. If you disagree with that, then we are on same page. My comment on the 17th century was off the cuff after reading the statements of this morning. Taalo 21:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
"From the 6th to the 9th century, the region was settled by the Bavarii together with the Langobards and the romanised natives." (quoted from the article on South Tyrol#History. I just mention this, although it is off-topic for this page. See my contribution there.   Andreas   (T) 20:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Note first that I believe these paragraphs were pulled from the German wiki, so they do have a rather strong German-centric POV. It concentrates on the Germanization of the area and almost cuts out the Roman/Latin people. So already that entire bit should be revised. Humans have been coming into the area all the time. Like I said above, the main thing that was annoying to hear was this about "Italians in the last 90 years". regards. Taalo 21:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Taalo LOL 85.124.32.4 18:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names in lead paragraph

A similar situation exists in Macedonia (Greece). The idea here is to put only the official name(s) into the opening sentence and have a separate section for the name, see Florina#Name, and we can put Mairania there, this is indeed informative. Note that there are lots of romance names even in Germany, the most famous one is Colonia -> Köln (Cologne). Btw, there are no " local Italian languages ("dialects")", all Italian-speaking Meraners came to the area during the 20th century. This is the heartland of Tyrol: the name Tyrol itself stems from the Tyrol castle located in Tirol, Italy. In roman times, this was Gallia Cisalpina, and the inhabitants were Celts.   Andreas   (T) 00:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Andreas, but that is highly misleading when you say "Italian-speaking Meraners came to the area during the 20th century". You must learn to differentiate between the national Italian language and the Italian people. If you go with your ideas based on simply what people speak, then there are in the end almost no Italians in Italy! LOL. There are definitely many "local Italian (possessive) languages": Nones, Ladin, and Solandro to name just a very few. These people were here well before German arrived. Note that this discussion doesn't just involve the city proper Merano, but the nearby surrounding valleys/villages. Yes, this is the heartland of Tirol. What this means beyond that? my regards. Taalo 00:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
  • On a side note, does German have a large variety of languages? It seems to me Italy is something similar to China, where China has many Chinese languages: Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, Hokkien, etc., etc., etc. The people are all Chinese -- the language that has become official Chinese is Mandarin. In my humble opinion, I see Nones as to Italian as Hakka is to Mandarin (Chinese). Similar with Ladin. Taalo 00:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You can see a brief overview of Ladin here. Joining the discussion on Ladin groups: Fassano, Gardenese and Badiotto are called in Italian specialist literature "Ladino dolomitico", Noneso and Solandro (the latter apparently left out by the page I gave) "Ladino anaunico". Ceterum censeo paginam "Meran" esse nominandam. Regards, Tridentinus 18:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

prove it! joking. :-) Always grateful for the info you provide Tridentinus. I guess this is discussion is getting philosophical now that I tried to bring up the point that the name Meran itself is "Italian". It is just my opinion that Ladin, Nones, etc. are in the end Italian (possessive) languages. Just as the other thousands of local languages in Italy. I'm not trying to make any sort of nationalistic claim. The terms Italy and Italian are both very broad umbrella if one really understands the people. Taalo 19:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
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