Talk:Megali Idea

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The article is a target for fanatic POVs. It is becoming anti-Greek propaganda. Phrases like "Greece did not manage to occupy Smyrna, Imbros, and Tenedos from Turkey" or "she also was not capable to occupy southern Albania" from user 213.100.205.98 are POVs, undocumented and horrible English language. --Spryom 10:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

The image in the top-right is not the Megali Idea. The true Megali idea would have included the Dodacanese/Rhodes/Megisti (currently Greek), southwestern Asia Minor, full control of Cyprus and the straits, and also northern Epirus, northern Macedonia, and Pontis. The image shown here is merely territory that the Treaty of Sevres declared to be "Greece".

[edit] NPOV

The whole article needs to be reworked. In my opinion there is only a weak link between recognition of borders with Albania and the Great Idea. In other words was the Great Idea the driving force behind belligerency and non-recognition of borders? Moreover, the whole term 'Great Idea' is associated in most historic accounts to the pre-World War I, Greek foreign policy. Is it justified to call every expansionist or revisionist attempt of Greek-Foreign Policy, irrespective of the ruling regime (republic-dictatorship) 'megaloideatic'? A propos Cyprus, it could be as well be called 'right-wing extremist policy'. Is there any special theory in international relations that provides that any maximalist tendency in Greek foreign-political objectives is to be characterised as 'megaloideatic'? To sum up, does hypothesizing about links between the Albanian borders and Megaloideatic beliefs, promote our understanding of modern greek foreign policy? I have contributed these questions in the discussion and would expect new entries and adaptations made in the article to reflect solid evidence or at least a sound argumentation on the issue, and not abstract or even corrupt clauses as it is now. Donnerstag 15:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Macedonia

Should the controversy on the name of Macedonia be mentioned?

Probably not, because more than 90% of Macedonia is wqithin Greece's borders. There is a separate page about the name controversey...

[edit] First Picture

The picture is wrong. The map is not the Megali Idea. The Megali Idea included nearly what once Byzantium posessed. The Map is about "Greece of two Continents and five Seas" a country which no more exists. User:panosfidis

Absolutely true. It must be possible to locate a better image. I've removed it for the time being since it is just misleading. Valentinian ^(talk) 12:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether or not this is public domain, but if you scoot on over to http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/greece/megali_idea.htm you will find a proper map of the Megli Idea. Ignore the text underneath it though, it's all racist propaganda!! Any wiki member should be able to upload it to this page, we hope.

Here's a map of Greater Greece and Greater Serbia. --Tēlex 13:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Your link doesn't lead to anything.....

This page seems to have an artist's impression of the concept: [1] (ignore the rest of the page, and click the link called "Paint of Megale idea" (second paragraph, second line from the bottom). Regarding a "map" the second image on this page might be better [2] (ignore the rest of the page, it is propaganda as well). Valentinian ^(talk) 10:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's another take on it, although admittedly the phrase "Megali Idea" is not used...

http://enotitanpride.tripod.com/ellada/

18 August 2006

I double-checked the link, and it must be this picture Telex tried to link to. Valentinian ^(talk) 09:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed image

The expansion of Greece from 1832 to 1947, showing territories awarded to Greece by the Treaty of Sèvres but lost in 1923 under the Treaty of Lausanne (click to enlarge).

I've removed this image because it didn't appear to be of the Megali Idea. Rather, it just looked like the history of Greece's borders. Keep in mind that the goal was to encompass all ethnic Greeks. This would mean the Pontus, Cyprus, and part of Sicily would have to be on the map, right? —Khoikhoi 22:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I have uploaded one of the images discussed earlier on the talk page. It doesn't include all of the Pontos region, but it is the best I can think of. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 23:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! —Khoikhoi 23:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

You can't really see that picture, can't we use something like this?--Tekleni 10:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, but the problem with that image is that Pontos is missing and North Epirus/South Albania isn't indicated very well. Secondly, I am a bit uneasy about the big Turkish lettering given the sensitivity of this topic (I have no idea about its contents, I speek neither Greek nor Turkish.) Khoikhoi, you have a point about Sicily (or even Magna Græcia), but I don't think it was that common to include them as well. But I think that we need to include Pontos somehow, since this region tried to secede during the 1920s mess. Perhaps, it would be better to draw a new image. The only problem with that solution is that any such drawing could turn into a never-ending edit war, so it would be really great (no pun intended) if we could find a good contemporary image - this probably means 1880s-1912. As I see it, the ideal picture would probably show Greece with the pre-1912 borders, and (shaded differently or whatever) Macedonia, Thrace (W and E), Epirus (including N Epirus), Crete, Rhodes and the other Aegean Islands, Cyprus, Constantinople/Istanbul, plus Western and North (eastern) Anatolia. But that is just my interpretation of the term. If somebody draws a map, it would naturally have to include the current frontiers of Greece as well. Cheers. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 11:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

So, we want a map explicitly including Magna Graecia and Northern Epirus. The only one I can think of is this one (I found it above, although as states, it does not specify that it is the Megali Idea). Additionally I think that one goes a bit too far.--Tekleni 11:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if my post was unclear. I think Magna Græcia is normally not included but that all of Epirus would probably be. I agree that the image you point to is pushing the definition too far. At times like these, I wish I knew how to read Greek ... Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 11:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think a map should include Souther Italy as there was never really any serious movement to incorporate Sicily and Southern Italy into Greece. These are almost no native Greeks in Sicily, and only a few tens of thousands in Calabria and Magna Grecia, and most of them are Catholic, not Orthodox.

There is the famous image which I think should be used, of Greece's 1922 borders, with Constantinople and Nicea, and with a picture of Venizelos. It is on the cover of Ionian Vision.

-Alexius Comenenus

Agree completely that we should exclude Southern Italy. You are right that the other image is more famous, sure, but AFAIK the image you're referring to shows both Nicea and Constantinople/Istanbul as part of a international zone, not as part of Greece (although the two red signatures are too close to each other that the artist probably thought this was a technicality.). I still hope it will be possible to find a good map dated before the Balkan Wars, since such a map would not have been influenced by later events (in 1912-13). It would also show more clearly the difference between the suggested Greek state and the state as it looked before the Balkan Wars. Such a map must exist somewhere. Btw, does anybody know who created the image used on the cover of "Ionian Vision" and what its copyright status is? Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 09:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Megali Idea according to me

Enlarge to see regions of the eastern borders

The Megali Idea would have classic Epirus, Alexander's Macedonia and Ancient Thrace as the northern most borders. This would be moving Modern Greece's border 0ver 60km towards the north and including European Turkey. In Asia Minor the eastern-most regions would include Bithynia, Phrygia, Pisidia, Lycaonia and Cilicia. Obviously Cyprus would be included, and also Pontus. Unsure if the region between Pontus and Bythinia would be included, but most likely. I have edited a Byzantine Empire image showing all this. Most of these regions had Greek minorities until the 1920s (and some regions even had majority Greek populations)--Maggas 09:18, 21 October 2006 (ACST)