Talk:May Laws

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] Pobedonostsev

I have changed the text and included an exact quote from a book. In addition to earlier links, here are few Russian links mantioning Pobedonostsev's xenophobia, intolerance, many containing reference to the same passage: [1],[2],[3],[4],[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11]. As can seen from the article, the problem was much larger than a lone antisemite in the tsarist court. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 09:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Rosenberg doesn't cite original source of the "quotation". Please support your opinion by proper citations, containing ORIGINAL SOURCE of the phrase attributed to Pobedonostsev.

--DonaldDuck 02:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why do we need exact quote in this case? This is a quote from a book, it is good enough. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, accusing someone in racial hatred needs HARD evidence. You gave a quote from a book, but this book don't cite original source of pobedonostsev "quote". Moreover main author of WP article about Pobedonostsev says that it's higly unlikely for him to say something like this.

"Pobedonostsev, I support the removal. It's hardly in Pobedonostsev's character to say things like these. -Ghirlandajo 07:36, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)"

Please remove wrong passage.--DonaldDuck 03:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

First, I did not accuse anyone. I merely quoted a book. Second, you did not convince me. And third, what is the ground for your requirement? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 03:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"First, I did not accuse anyone." Ascribing to someone a plan to kill one third of Jews is a grave accusation, isn't it?--DonaldDuck 03:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I merely quote an authoritative book (that is what encyclopedias do). OTOH, you are covering up. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The quote is on topic, the source reasonable; why on earth would you delete it? Jayjg ^(talk) 15:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

An serious expert Leon Poliakov Léon Poliakov in his well-documented History of Anti-semitism writes about this phrase cautiously: "According to the famous formula, originated in the circles of Alexander III...", i.e., not attributing it to some person. mikka (t) 06:42, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Still, authorship of this formula is not clear. Morst likely it is just a rumour.--DonaldDuck 10:25, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The following partial list is search results in books:

1. Nicholas and Alexandra by ROBERT K. MASSIE (p.15) [12]
2. A History of Russia by Nicholas Valentine Riasanovsky (p.395) [13]
3. Studies in Comparative Genocide by Levon Chorbajian (p.237) [14]
4. War Without End : Israelis, Palestinians, and the Struggle for a Promised Land by Anton La Guardia (p.69) [15]
5. Jewish Literacy: The Most Important Things to Know About the Jewish Religion, Its People and Its History by Joseph Telushkin (p.288) [16]
6. The Orientalist : Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life by TOM REISS (p.7) [17]
7. The Pity of It All : A Portrait of the German-Jewish Epoch, 1743-1933 by Amos Elon (p.251) [18]
8. A History of Israel : From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time (Second Edition, Revised and Updated) by HOWARD M. SACHAR (p.13) [19]
9. Ethnic Cleansing by Andrew Bell-Fialkoff (p.28) [20]
10. Semites and Anti-Semites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice by Bernard Lewis (p.73) [21]
11. After Auschwitz : History, Theology, and Contemporary Judaism (Johns Hopkins Jewish Studies) by Richard L. Rubenstein (p.104) [22]
12. A Century of Ambivalence: The Jews of Russia and the Soviet Union, 1881 to the Present by Zvi Y. Gitelman (p.11) [23]
13. Jews, God, and History by Max I. Dimont (p.318) [24]
14. Why The Jews? The Reason for Antisemitism by Dennis Prager (p.25) [25]
15. World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability by AMY CHUA (p.81) [26]
16. The Intermarriage Handbook : A Guide for Jews & Christians by Judy Petsonk (p.26) [27]
17. The Gates of November by CHAIM POTOK (p.XII) [28]
18. Wanderings by CHAIM POTOK (p.491) [29]
19. The Will to Live On : This is Our Heritage by Herman Wouk (p.286) [30]
20. Letters to Auntie Fori : The 5,000-Year History of the Jewish People and Their Faith by MARTIN GILBERT (p.168) [31]
21. Heritage: Civilization and the Jews by Abba Solomon Eban (p.248) [32]
22. The Tragedy of Zionism: How Its Revolutionary Past Haunts Israeli Democracy by Bernard Avishai (p.17) [33]

Here is yet another weblink: [34]. I must note that this particular quote is translated in a slightly different ways in various books. We can cite any of the books (IMO, Rosenberg's quote is fine). Usually controversial or suspicious quotes are disputed by scholars. It's been 120 years but I didn't see any dispute about this one. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 10:04, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Still, you have failed to find original source.

By original source I mean transcript of speech by Pobedonostsev, article by Pobedonostsev, letter written by Pobedonostsev, article written by Pobedonostsev, statement by someone, who heard this words from Pobedonostsev.--DonaldDuck 11:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He's quoted by dozens of works; that's good enough. Wikipedia is not a place to conduct original research. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He is not quoted. The rumors are quoted. These "quotes" in quotes quite differ, both in wording and in circumstances of them being uttered/written. I will agree to the wording "attributed to Pobedonostsev", though, since the phrase is notable. mikka (t) 19:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"attributed to Pobedonostsev" works for me. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 20:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the record, Simon Dubnow also mentions this in "The newest history of the Jewish people, 1789-1914": "To the question, what is going to happen with the Jews under constant systematic repressions, the Russian inquisitor allegedly responded..." (vol.3 p.154). As I said, this formulation is fine with me. The important thing is, this is not original research. As long as we quote an authoritative source, we are fine. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:19, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Attributed to Pobedonostsev" may be OK, with clear indication that there is no original source of the "quote". To Humus_sapiens: "the Russian inquisitor" - this is total nonsense. Inquisition was CATHOLIC CHURCH tribunal, Holy Synod was STATE body which controlled Russian Orthodox Church. This shows the "quality" of Dubnow's work.--DonaldDuck 04:44, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[35] in·quis·i·tor: one who inquires or makes inquisition; especially : one who is unduly harsh, severe, or hostile in making an inquiry. As a matter of fact, this characterization of KPP is very common by both his contemporaries and historians, while Simon Dubnow is an acknowledged and undisputed expert. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)