Talk:Mathematical physics

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Physics, which collaborates on articles related to physics.	Physics Portal
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the assessment scale.
High	This article is on a subject of high importance within physics.
Help with this template This article has been rated but has no comments. If appropriate, please review the article and leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mathematics.
	Mathematics grading:	Start Class	Top Importance	Field: Mathematical physics
This article covers material that is considered more important in mathematics than it is physics, hence the difference in importance ratings. Needs history, motivation, examples, successes, limitations... Tompw 12:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"but in practice, most physics is done on a more intuitive/approximate or even questionable level."

This line makes me think that this was written by a math-person. I don't feel informed enough about this topic to flesh-out the stub, nor do I wish to try and make this have less of a negative physics view.

--Richard Boyer 03:59, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Mathematical physics and mathematically rigorous physics

I have refocussed the article, to present mathematical physics primarily in its more general sense, ie as the general study of the application of mathematics and mathematical techniques to physics.

I think this makes sense, because

• it is a good policy for WP articles to present the more general usages of terms first, before introducing more specific usages.
• this is what the term is most widely used to mean.
• many of the "heroes" cited in the list of prominent mathematical physicists -- for example Maxwell, Kelvin, Gibbs -- belong very definitely in the class of mathematical physicists more than happy to use "heuristic, intuitive, or approximate arguments" to shed light on the problems at hand.

... to be continued -- Jheald 14:12, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

The distinct concepts described are probably better termed theoretical physics and mathematical physics. Blurring the distinction is particularly unhelpful. --MarSch 14:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I have never personally heard the term 'mathematical physics' used in the restrictive 'distinctively mathematically-rigorous physics' sense. (But then perhaps I don't move in that particular rarified world). In my experience, the journal definition is spot-on; the "mathematical" physics definition isn't. You might wish that words were used differently, but wikipedia should reflect them as they are. -- Jheald 18:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Mathematical Physics?!?

I have heard the term "mathematical physicist" a lot of times, so it has made me wonder if there is such a thing as a "non-mathematical physicist" or "non-matehmatical physics" . . . isn't this kind of redundant?

"Experimental physicist" ?  :-)

More to the point (and beyond just how to do the experimental side) a lot of physics is very closely focussed on the implications for a particular physical domain of interest, rather than on developing mathematical approaches.

If you look at the definition from the journal at the top of the article, that does define something distinctive, I think. -- Jheald 15:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC).

Not to bash physicists or say what they do is incorrect, plenty of physics is non-mathematical. I was initially quite surprised to ecounter experimentalists who seem to be doing just fine without knowing any real mathematics whatsoever, nor (apparently) a nonvague idea what math is. IMHO, what is unfortunate is that they pass this absence of mathematical awareness to their students. The following sentence in the artcle is not really true:

Quantum mechanics cannot be understood without a good knowledge of mathematics.

Plenty of popular physics texts on QM are full of mathematical inaccuracies. Take, for example, Sakurai, which is used in many graduate QM courses. But physicsts trained in such a manner seem to understand QM, from a purely physical point of view, just fine. Mct mht 08:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the following sentence:

Some recompense for the fact that mathematicians tend to call researchers in this area physicists and that physicists tend to call them mathematicians is provided by the breadth of physical subject matter and beauty of various unexpected interconnections in the mathematical structure of rather distinct physical situations.

Rigorous is rigorous, no matter who's doing it. Someone like, say, Barry Simon, is clearly considered a bona fide mathematician by other mathematicians. Mct mht 09:21, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The very core of physics does involve with the experiment. Without the observations its not physics, its not science. It is often taught and reminded over and over by physicists that math is a tool not the answer. Experimentalists usually do need to know math but not the same math theorists or phenomenologists need to know. It depends on which area (condensed matter, plasma, etc.) or which angle (theory, phenomenology, computational, experimental, et al.), at the level of math. Mathematical physics has its place and at a time (over a century ago i think) there was a movement away from math in terms of theory. I think mathematical physics has contributed enough to both physics & math to make it a valid path for a scientist. however, physicts arent (or shouldnt) be afraid to break a math rule once in awhile (or be creative); thats how some of the great theoretical "discoveries" were made in the 20th century. --Blckavnger 21:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

There is no dissention in this article. Many inventors and engineers have repeatedly stated that this "branch" of physics is, um, useless. The article makes it seem like this is the best thing since sliced bread! 134.193.168.249 16:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

There's no POV problem, article simply describes what the field entails, either you have no clue what you talking about and/or suffers from some kinda complex. The article refrains from senseless bashing of physicists by mathematicians and vice versa. Engineering is not relevant here. (Anyhow, there ARE engineers very well trained in pure mathematics, but, again, not relevant). POV tag removed. Mct mht 17:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

i've crossed out harsh personal comments i made. it was uncivil; i apologize. what i meant to say was that a WP article should consist of facts. it is not a public forum for the untrained to state their un-informed opinions or justify erroneous impressions. Mct mht 19:45, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Yea, riiiight, it's all "erroneous impressions" ... Nikola Tesla, Edwin Armstrong, and William Henry Preece were untrained and uninformed. There's POV problem and engineering is relevant here. FM radio didn't come out of Mathematical physics. The Wimshurst machine didn't either. Mct mht, MarSch, and Elroch seem to see it as the best thing next to sliced bread. Sad really. Many a mathematical physicist have been wrong (impossible to fly, etc., ...). Phenonomena and inventions have disreguarded the "impossiblities" of the mathematical physicist historically. Mathematical physics only follows the phenonomena and inventions (and tries to claim it were right in the 1st place) once identified or built. 134.193.168.245 20:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I can understand why Mct was inclined to lash out at what seems to be a pointless comment by someone who wished to not be identified. I must admit I am not familiar with any well-known statements by "inventors" and "engineers" on mathematical physics being "useless" (I am sure 134.193.168.249 will be able to provide examples), but mathematical physicists I have known have had nothing but good things to say about the engineers who play an essential role in experimental physics. On the assumption that these unattributed opinions were literally about the utility of mathematical physics (if the word "useless" was merely used in a derogatory fashion it would suggest the person using it was, ahem, not an intellectual giant) it would be surprising, given that mathematical physics of one era has an tendency to turn into the engineering and inventions of the next (although general relativity seems safe for a while). I will give 134.193.168.249 the benefit of the doubt and assume the comment was a jovial attempt to rile those interested in mathematical physics and not, as might easily be misconstrued, a manifestation of some sort of a chip on his/her shoulder. Elroch 01:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

(special) relativity is highly relevant for GPS. FYI. --MarSch 09:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Excellent point. In fact, my proviso appears to have been entirely unnecessary, as it is reported to be necessary to take gravitational time dilation into account in relating clocks in geosynchronous orbits to those on the ground, as well as the Lorentz time dilation [1] (interestingly, the GR effect is said to be over six times the SR effect. Intuitively, before I saw this I was thinking they should be of similar magnitude, because the kinetic energy and the potential energy are closely related, but the ratio is not an obvious one...) Elroch 20:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

what jobs can people with a degree in mathematical physic get?

mathematical physicist lol

honestly this probably isnt the right forum for this, but if you had to ask. You can pretty much get any job as any other phd carrying math or physics person. You might have to do some extra work if you want to work in industry rather than academia, but no where near the difficulty of phd. For example, to be an actuary you would just have to pass the actuary exam, which isnt too tought by that point. Quants in the economic fields is not too tough if u had experience is stochastic studies; you dont need any economic background at all. Any data analysis or software developement is avaliable, too. Of course theres those consulting firms that always seem to ask for physics/math phd students. You may not be doing physics anymore but same goes for doctors or lawyers with their undergrad degree--Blckavnger 21:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)