User talk:Mark Dingemanse

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[edit] Couldn't add a legend to IDP's_in_Northern_Uganda.png

I added a legend to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IDP%27s_in_Northern_Uganda.png but then found that I couldn't upload it. How strange! The wikipedia says "there is no file with that name". I think it's because of the ' in the name of the file. Maybe it's a bug in the mediawiki? I was then going to change the name of the image to drop the ' but I couldn't find a way to rename it either. Maybe that has to be done by an Administrator. Jeff Carr 19:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Endangered languages

Hi Mark,

Good catch. I have a confession. I used WP:AWB to find articles linked to Endangered language. Then as I was processing the list, I tried to read the text to see if the article really did describe an endangered language:

• On a few pages, the artice described both endangered languages plus other languages, which may have been either non-endangered or extinct. I added those articles to the category on the principle that if an endangered language is described (not mrely mentioned) on any given page, it is of interest to the category "Endangered languages."
• Moreover, I may have completely muffed a few as well. I hope those are rare.

I felt OK about doing this because:

1. I added far more legitimate pages than bad ones, and
2. more importantly, I'm making a commitment to go back through and check them.

Actually, I'm gonna totally populate the List of endangered languages page with every single language listed in UNESCO's Red Book. That will be in a couple weeks, though I may add a bit here and there in between.

I have noticed your name on many related pages. I sincerely appreciate your work.

Let me know if you have further questions. I hope my categorization didn't disturb anything.

Later, --Ling.Nut 12:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• PS. Ah. I see by your edit summary that you think it is not best to categorize a group of languages within Category:Endangered languages unless all languages in that group are endangered. That's OK of course; I was just thinking (as I said above) that a category functions as a place to find further info, and should include a group in which some but not necessarily all languages are endangered. But I am far from being committed to this viewpoint. I was just thinking. --Ling.Nut 14:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Followup: I re-checked (from among those I added to the cat) all articles about a group of languages rather than an individual language. They all seem legit even by the stricter definition that you apply. An indeterminate case is Chibchan languages, which includes the text, "Most of these indigenous languages are severely endangered...". That doesn't say whether there are some that are "endangered" but not "severely endangered." I lean toward leaving this in the category, but please do remove the cat if you feel it is inappropriate. A million thanks!--Ling.Nut 14:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your replies and for double-checking. Yeah, I can see why it makes sense to have an article on a group of languages in the category even if not all languages of that group are endangered. I happen to have some background knowledge on the Maa languages (and to a lesser extent the Adamawa languages), that's why it struck me as an inappropriate characterization of these groups of languages. Maa especially is a clear case of a language family that is almost the opposite of being endangered, since both Maasai and Samburu are somewhat notorious for being the new language of many smaller peoples that have abandoned their own language (see Dorobo for example). And Adamawa is simply too vast a group to be characterized as endangered.

We may differ a little bit in our conception of the meaning and use of categories on Wikipedia but I think you made a good call in the other cases so far as I checked. Thanks for the agreeable way of handling these matters! — mark ✎ 21:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] African language map series

Can you please address the concerns I pointed out here, please? Since you made a number of these maps, I imagine there are 3 or 4 maps that will have to be corrected for the Nilo-Saharan languages Kunama, Nara, and Nubian. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Replied over there. — mark ✎ 18:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extinct & endangered African languages

Hi Mark,

The Extinct & endangered African languages sandbox is slightly more coherent now. There are two main sections: one is composed of several tables, and the second is the alphabetical listing that you may remember. The contents are not the same; they need to be merged. Moreover, the extinct languages need to be put onto a separate page (but that's another project).

Any time you have free time, here and there, feel free to drop by and fix an entry or two. I'm not asking for any big commitment; just whenever you have a free moment and want to do something different.

Thanks! --Ling.Nut 17:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, I'll see about tackling a red link now and then and maybe I can help cleaning up the list once in a while. Endangered languages are important. Best, — mark ✎ 20:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] linked refs for "speakers" and "ethnic pop"?

Hi again Mark,

Don't miss my message just above this one ;-)

You seem to know the people working in African languages. Can we get some sort of a consensus on (at least) two details?

Some (perhaps many) articles seem to have references sections that do not link back to the text of the article (see Zenaga language). I don't necessarily wanna be radical and suggest that every fact should be so linked (I think they should, but some folks will disagree). First of all, it clutters up shorter articles; second, some info is relatively stable; and third it might take forever to cite every single fact.

However, can we get some sort of consensus that really dynamic info (here I have in mind "number of speakers" and "ethnic population" should be fully cited and linked back to the appropriate reference? I think this info needs to be tracked more closely than some other facts may...

Thanks for your time, --Ling.Nut 18:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree and this is a sensible proposal. Have added my voice over at WikiProject Languages. — mark ✎ 20:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Mark, I saw that posting of yours. I didn't want to reply in that forum because I didn't want to "hog the floor." I'm hoping others will have something to say as well.

I suppose this idea could be one project in the WikiProject Endangered languages and language revitalization (or Wikiproject Biolinguistic diversity.. or.. whatever).

Thanks!--Ling.Nut 21:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Picture on Logba language

Mark - I think you were a bit quick on the trigger there - i was still trying to edit the page but you cut in - go easy, I use this very rarely so have to fiddle a lot to get the effect I am intending. Anyhow I'll leave you to work out where to put the picture I have contributed. I think getting rid of the friends of Lodba link is a mistake - there are hundreds of good pictures there as well as videos with sound (songs in local langauge), but maybe you havent had the chance to look yet? A description of a language spoken by 7000 people without pictures sounds or people is pretty dry stuff you know! User:Excalibur (UTC)

Hi Excalibur,

I only wanted to help you, sorry for interrupting and for coming across curtly! As for the Friends of Logba link, I certainly didn't mean to imply that it's useless, just that it would be much more suitable in an article about the Logba people (as I said in my edit summary).

I did look at the site, by the way; but from the front page it is not clear where the videos can be found. After some searching, I found them on the page on Logba Tota Primary School, so I think the direct link you have added is a good solution. Thanks for that, Logba materials are quite scarce on the internet! — mark ✎ 18:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mark, I couldnt agree more - there can't be many Wikipedians (even abjectly poor ones like me) who have visited this charming spot, let alone spent long enough there to record its manifest delights. The idea of a "People of Logba " page is a nice one, but I'm afraid I would have to leave that to my very good friend and neighbour Aku Sika - as a native of the the village she knows a lot more about it than I will ever do. She is in touch with other Logbans (?) in the UK, so if you ever need any help on the linguistic side, I'm sure she could help. Hope you enjoyed watching the video as much as I enjoyed being there to make it!

By the way, although not strictly Logba, I picked up an excellent CD recording at the British Library on Friday of Ewe drumming and singing from Dzodze, Ghana - the website reference to this project is www.cepafrica.org - You might be able to use this or link it somwhere useful. And if you like any of my other photos at the friends of Logba gallery (just Google for it) please feel free to use them here - I'm not possessive.

Excalibur 14 November 2006

Hello Excalibur, thanks for the offer concerning the photos, it would be great to use some more. By the way, would it be possible for you to upload them in a higher resolution?

As for the videos, it was confirmed to me by a native speaker of Ewe that the songs are in Ewe, not in Logba. I suspected so much when I saw that the videos were recorded on a school. Thing is, there is much influence of Ewe on Logba, and education in the area is mostly in Ewe. So at school, they learn Ewe songs. (In fact, Rudolph Plehn already wrote more than a century ago that the Logba don't sing their own (Logba) songs.) Still, it's fine to put it up at Logba people since that's what they are. But regrettable, it's not the Logba language.

I have something in the works though; I think we'll have audio samples of real Logba in the article within a month.

Best, — mark ✎ 09:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting! Anyhow I'll certainly upload a few higher resolution pictures shortly. I might also take another look at the caves description - as far as I am aware there is only one cave and it is about 30 foot long with a rather small column, an aven, some immature gour dams and some very unimpressive stal and flowstone development. Its unusual because there is so little karst in Ghana, but in global terms its very unremakable. (I'm a better speleologist than linguist) - however the cliffs are truly spectacular by comparison. Excalibur 16:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Added a larger file version at [1] Excalibur 17:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Great! (BTW, you can link to images without including them by prefacing 'image'with a double colon, as in [[:Image:Logbagirlbig.JPG]], which yields Image:Logbagirlbig.JPG.) I have deleted the smaller one and changed it in Logba language also. Thanks again! — mark ✎ 17:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem Mark: heres three more images to spice up the page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Logbakitchen.JPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lobgaschool.JPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Logbavillage.JPG

Hope you can use them! Excalibur 18:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Certainly! I think I'm going to make a start on Logba people, based on some material from Logba language and whatever other sources I can find. Your pictures will look great in the article. — mark ✎ 09:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bantu-Please clarify

I made an attempt at what I thought was the correct interpretation based on a cursory reading of Bantu languages and because the paragraph is talking about a single language (which I assumed to be proto-Bantu). This was apparently incorrect, but you have left the original confusion intact. Why is Bantu being referred to as a single language? Your help in clarifying this paragraph would be appreciated. Thanks. Ufwuct 21:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. As a linguist I'm used to the use of 'Bantu' as short for 'the Bantu family', that's why I didn't notice the unclarity. I have now clarified it. My problem with your original edit was that it suggested that Greenberg compared the hypothetical Proto-Bantu language with other (Bantoid) languages, which is not the case as Greenberg's method for his 1963 The Languages of Africa mostly involved mass lexical comparison of synchronic (as opposed to diachronic) linguistic materials. Regards, — mark ✎ 21:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The proto-XXX reconstruction is the method I was most familiar with, so I perhaps didn't word it carefully enough in my edit, and just edited according to my biases. Thank you for your clarification. Ufwuct 15:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sukuma

Hey, have you been watching the Sukuma page? Someone's adding (poorly formatted) info that has a plausible ring to it, bt I have no idea if it's factual or not. It's certainly uncited.

Cheers, --Ling.Nut 23:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't. For now I have pulled out the additions because I feel we really are too lenient generally in applying WP:V. — mark ✎ 08:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Systemic Bias in Linguistics

Great list... I look forward to contributing to some of these. As for your other comment re: embodiment - I have added a cite in the article itself. Great to have discovered this group working on Systemic Bias... mukerjee (talk) 07:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Languages of Uganda

Namna gani Mark? Excuse the delay, I am moving house, so I'm a bit busy. Thanks for removing that unecyclopedic anecdote at Languages of Uganda, as you know, I tried to remove it some time back. Regarding the sentence on the history of Uganda, political rivalry and language, I can see how that connection can be made, but it is a case of oversimplifying the causes of Uganda's problems issue, and seems like original research. On the other hand, the claim is sufficiently weasel worded, so as to make it difficult to argue against. Like you said, the tone is a bit awkward. User:A12n had some complaints about it, and I too believe it should be removed. I will proceed and do so. --Ezeu 19:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I see now that you have removed it, but there was a duplicate of the same assertion in the lead paragraph - that I have now removed as well. --Ezeu 19:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Salama tu. Habari za nyumba yako?

Very good. I now note that I did say myself that 'the sourced statement of course can stay' on Talk:Languages of Uganda. I have since changed my opinion and I'm glad it's gone. What we need is a more balanced discussion. — mark ✎ 18:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Al-Umari

I have noticed that you have previously renamed this article. Can you please rename it to Chihab Al-Umari or something? Al-Umari (or Al-Omeri) tribe with different names (e.g. Farooqi) has millions of members and I wish to write an article. I can include his name in the list of prominent Al-Umaries. Thank you. Hassanfarooqi 20:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. See here for the request that led to the previous move. Best, — mark ✎ 22:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sso (rite)

I've finished the article on the Sso rite of passage from Cameroon. Thanks for your help! — BrianSmithson 08:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

I replied to your question about my use of Barnstars, which is now located at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive (but not for long). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sharkface217 (talk • contribs) 03:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Thank you

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to drop by the AFD discussion. Even though you reached a different conclusion than I did, I appreciate you taking the time.

Thanks,

Linux monster 22:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay! Thanks for the friendly note, I appreciate it. — mark ✎ 22:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your input is requested

Your input would be appreciated at this Request for Comments. Kelly Martin (talk) 19:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm going with others here in noting that this has already been discussed far too often. There is enough material in the previous RfC's and I don't see the need for another one. — mark ✎ 20:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] yo.wikipedia.org

I am thinking about taking up your challenge to help with wikipedia in Yoruba. I speak Yoruba imperfectly, but I can construct simple sentences as I grew up in Nigeria and am Yoruba. My question is will this primarily involve translation of en.wikipedia items or whole new articles? I can be reached at tunde_isathotmaildotcom —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Disaggregated (talk • contribs) 07:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] to prefix or not to prefix

Mark, thanks for provoking a short discussion on this, on the Sotho language (or rather Sesotho language) page. I added a last few comments yesterday. I think the reasoning is pretty clear, and that pursuing the "prefixful" route is really unnecessary, and kind of gnostic (involves special knowledge, or even perhaps pseudo-knowledge). My last comment was simply that the title (nay, appellation) of the Sotho language page is out of sync with respect to the rest of the Southern Bantu pages. No matter how developed or limited each one is, it would be good if they were streamlined. I leave it to you or others who have the know-how or where-with-all to guide any name changes, if such need be made. It seems that one or two readers feel very strongly about it all (but the pro-prefix arguments seem to me well-intended but not linguistically coherent). I can't figure out how representative the strongly pro-prefix reader is. Ah well. So, I'm done with my 2c worth for now. If there's anything further, let me know on my talk page.

Thanks, and cheers for now, NguniTraveller 20:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, Simon. To my mind, all that can be said about it has been said. I'll take care of the move, if we get there. — mark ✎ 20:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Graphics Lab

I saw your name listed on Wikiproject Illustration or the list of graphic artists, and I thought I'd let you know that a Graphics Lab has been created on EN. Based on the highly successful French and German graphics labs, it seeks to better organise and coordinate our graphic design and photo-editing efforts. Up until now, there has been no common space on EN where users could ask for maps, charts and other SVG files to be created. What's more, the Graphics Lab has discussion boards, tips, tools and links; in sum, a good common workspace. Come help us out! The infrastucture is already in place, and now we need participants. :) --Zantastik talk 00:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)