User talk:Mariano Anto Bruno Mascarenhas/Archive 7

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This user is currently busy in real life and may not respond swiftly to queries.

Mariano Anto Bruno Mascarenhas/Archive 7 is taking a short wikibreak to get ready for exams and will be back on Wikipedia once the exams are over on January 15, 2007.

I am busy in Real Life. Email me for anything urgent. I may not be able to contribute to Wikipedia at least for some time, since I have to devote my time for a lot of activities including writing 4 more books, conducting medical camps, taking part in the Environmental Sanitation Programme, involve with TNGDA, prepare for AIIMS and AIPG, prepare for TNPG, in addition to the routine PHC works etc

This is the talk page for discussion with J.Mariano Anto Bruno Mascarenhas. Please note that this User had once edited Wikipedia under the User Name "Doctor Bruno"
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Archives
Sorted by Category Welcome Messages FAQ Regarding India Messages from Users Greetings RFA Thanks Edited from Main Page Sorted by Date Old Account June 2005 to Dec 2005 Jan 2006 to June 2006 July 2006 to Aug 2006 Sep 2006 New Account Oct 2006 till date Current Discussions

Contents 1 Image Tagging Image:TvMC_Panoramic.jpg 2 Jeyaraj 3 First clinical syndrome 4 Tamil 4.1 Orange 4.2 Hello 4.3 Mass messages 4.4 Nohat 5 ISBN 6 About editing 7 Cricket 7.1 Sachin Tendulkar 7.2 Rahul Dravid 8 Ayyavazhi and Duryodhana 8.1 Ayyavazhi 8.2 Duryodhana 8.3 Recognition 8.4 Notability 9 Village deities

Image Tagging Image:TvMC_Panoramic.jpg

This media may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:TvMC_Panoramic.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then you can use {{GFDL}} to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as {{fairusein|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --Pilatus 03:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Jeyaraj

Jeyaraj has been proposed for deletion. Please provide sources for the information. NickelShoe 02:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

He is a well known tamil artist. What kind of "proof" do you need ??. Every one in Tamil nadu who reads Tamil magazines knows him. Doctor Bruno 15:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia has to rely on published information which can be verified, not "every one knows." It was User:Jabencarsey who proposed this for deletion as a suspected hoax. But, for instance, a Google search for Jeyaraj "Kalaignar Award"[1] brings up no hits. The external link you provided goes nowhere.

You might review WP:V and WP:CITE for some guidelines. NickelShoe 15:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/31/stories/2006013114800600.htm

I just fixed the links in the article. They wouldn't work because you put an extra character at the end. You don't have to pipe external links, just put a space. Sorry about the misunderstanding. Non-working external links on suspected hoaxes don't give me warm feelings, but I see it was just a syntax error. Thanks for the contributions and the willingness to improve it! NickelShoe 15:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not mean that an artist's skillfulness can be "proven". I was not thinking of the correct words when I made that statement. I was thinking more about verifiability, since the paragraph I had removed did not appear to be verifiable.

By the way, if you could find the source of the statement that "Jeyaraj has been drawing for various magazines for 25 years", that would be an excellent indication of how skillful he is. And once we have the source for it, we should then put it in right away. — Kimchi.sg | Talk 13:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What to do if there are no internet pages that tell that line. This is the problem with articles dealing with topics from non English Issues Doctor Bruno 13:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

For example see [[2]] where it is given that Kannadasan told about Jeyaraj It was after seeing this man that I wrote Kalaigalile Aval Oviyam." In the song `Kalangalil Aval Vasantham,' the poet describes the heroine as the Spring among seasons and painting as supreme among the fine arts. Kannadasan died way back in 1981. I am sure that this is not something that stands with {[Verifiability]]. But there are very few articles about Tamil People who are not sportsperson or Cinema Artists Doctor Bruno 13:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You can use sources that do not exist on the Internet at all. As long as it is a reliable source it does not matter if it can be accessible from the Internet.

I understand your problem, I do have occasional problems like this with Singapore articles too, because the main English newspaper in Singapore, The Straits Times, does not allow people to access its articles on the Internet without paying for the website. So the articles from the newspaper are not available from the Internet for many Singaporeans. — Kimchi.sg | Talk 14:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There are papers and magazines in Tamil which do not even have an online edition, let alone something that is accesible for paid useers. Any way, I will try to give some references (from standard books) while updating the article in futureDoctor Bruno 12:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

First clinical syndrome

About your article First Clinical Syndrome, I have changed it to a redirect to the article medical student syndrome. Medical student syndrome is a much more commonly used term, and the phenomenon is a global one. Therefore, there shouldn't be different articles for the same term in regional dialects of English. You are free to add more to medical student syndrome. I couldn't find anything in your article to merge, however. Graham talk 10:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted that. See talk:medical student syndrome. Graham talk 11:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Tamil

Orange

Where did you get the etymology for the word 'orange'? It needs to be cited because every source I've consulted gives a different story.--Hraefen 17:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I forgot from where I quoted those reference. But I will give you the textbook, (if possible scan the page) soon Doctor Bruno 02:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• That's not necessary. I'd be cool with just the title, author, ISBN etc. Sorry if this whole thing seems heavy-handed, but the constant reversion of 'orange' is frustrating, so I want to just have it settled.--Hraefen 16:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The work I saw this is a magazine, and there will be no ISBN. Doctor Bruno 18:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

magazine!!! aah! how convenient :) 67.164.5.90 04:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes... Magazines do not have ISBN.... What to do...... Forget that. There are few donkeys in the world, who do not even have a magazine to quote. They just type all the rubbish that comes to their mind. When the mistakes are pointed out, they act like illiterate goons, pretending as if they cannot read...... What do you comment about the uncivil idiots who do not have the basic decency to edit their own mistakes

Hello

I saw your comments on my talk page - life is a process of learning, and we continue to learn. I have seen most of South India, as an internal auditor of my Bank - I have also been to your native palce - I hope to see you, at least talk with you over phone. Have a nice time, and all the best! --Bhadani 17:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Mass messages

Some of the places you have been placing your messages are completely inappropriate; in particular Talk:Larry Sanger and User:Larry Sanger/Origins of Wikipedia. Please don't do this, and I would encourage you to avoid spamming the User Talk pages of lots of people, too. If you have an issue that you would like admins to deal with, it is better to post a single message to the Administrator's Noticeboard. — Matt Crypto 11:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for my messages. I did not know what to do. I wanted to bring it to the notice of some one high up because this insult was by an administrator. I got your advice. I will do as you say Doctor Bruno 11:57, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Please see my reply at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bhadani#Insulting_behaviour_by_User_Nohat --Bhadani 12:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Nohat

I find your behaviour towards Nohat more troubling than his to you. Please try to solve things in a more CIVIL mannor, and try to work together instead of quizzing him on qualificiations. Try to from a concencious, not an arguement. Also as pointed out qualificiations are not required to edit here, and asking a user the level of knowledge of something while in a dispute with them will only cause more problems than it will solve. Also him asking an ISBN # is to verify the source, I find it odd that Indian books do not have them, what do they use instead? If you feel you require help dealing with this user, follow the links on the WP:AN for dispute resolution at the top. Posting this dispute to the WP:AN is not the right thing to do at all. Mike _{(T C)} 16:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Also please stop demanding appoligies, in a dispute you cannot assume you are correct, you have to assume good faith and try to work it out. Mike _{(T C)} 16:59, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Can you please explain to me as to why I cannot assume I am correct. Ask Nohat to prove that the word "nal" has been lost from Tamil. If not he has to apologise.

What will you do when some user goes on vandalising pages. You ban him. Why do you have special privilages for an Administrator who says that a word has been lost from a language. Is it not insulting to the language, the culture and the crores of people for whom this is a mother tongue.

95 % Indian books do not have ISBN. Well as I have already given, the Bible published till 19th century did not have ISBN. It is like that only. Only 5 % of Indian books have ISBN.

On the other hand, how come this user has not given a source for a post he made telling that a word has been lost in Tamil. How can he tell such false allegationse. He did not give any proof for that. When I ask him his credentials to level such a stance, he calls my question as stupid. Is this to be tolerated.

He calls me stupid for asking a legitimate question (after he uttered an TOTALLY INCORRECT INFORMATION). I demand an apology. And you find MY behaviour more troubling. I cannot understand this

I am NOT ASSUMING that I am correct. HE IS WRONG. That has been proved. The User has given as COMPLETELY BASELESS INCORRECT ALLEGATION about a language. He says that a word does not exist in Tamil, where as in fact it very well exists. There is no need for mediation here.

Let me clear the situation for you. Nohat said that Protodravidian for 4 is naL, where as 4 in Tamil does not have the "L" and hence ......... He went to the extent of telling that the word "Nal" has been lost from Tamil. THe word "Nal" has NOT been lost from Tamil. It is still used in Tamil in the day to day workds Naalavathu (meaning fourth) and Naalvagai (meaning four kinds). In fact "Nal" as well as "naangu" means four in tamil.

My concern is "how can nohat (or for that matter anyone) tell that the word Nal (or for that matter any word) has been lost from Tamil, where as it is been still used in day to day life. What right does he have to proclaim a word as "lost". WHen we say that words are lost from a language, it means that the language is dying. Isn't it.

I find it very odd that some one can insult some one so publically and yet get away without apologising. Is this the way this WIKIPEDIA runs.

Moreover, lot of books related to this are in Tamil. How can he go through them when he does not even have the basic knowledge of the language.

Is it not odd that he does not even know a word in tamil, but tells that the word naal does not exist in tamil. Who gives him such rights.Doctor Bruno 18:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

aww...bruno...just SHUT UP!! 67.164.5.90

ISBN

With due respect to you, I am astonished that you "find it hard to believe that Indian books do not carry ISBN numbers." THis is called as Cultural Divide, where in you are not able to accept that there is a world outside your country. By the way, even Bible did not have an ISBN number when it was published for 19 centuries in 200 languages till the 20th century. I am not talking about one word or one article alone, but I am worried, that most of the Wikipedians do not understand other cultures, other countries or other languages. In India we have Medical Colleges (not medical schools). We are not permitted to have an article about "Medical Colleges". Instead the article on Medical College automatically redirects to Medical School. I get a reply that there is "nothing called as Medical College". The truth is that the administrator is NOT AWARE of the concept of Medical College. WHen he does not know anything he automatically assumes that it does not exist. What to say about this. In this regard, (I am sorry to say) I find the users from the so called developed American and European nations who are so adamant and do not even believe that there is a world where there are drinks other than cola, and dress other than shirts. The same with ISBN :) :-) Doctor Bruno 18:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Please explain this then

http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/isbn/international/group_agencies_info.asp

There is an isbn agency in india, but india does not use ISBN #s on books? Curious. Mike _{(T C)} 19:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I never said that "INDIA does not use ISBN #s on books" . That was a misinterpretation. Please be kind enough to read my posts and see. I told that "95 % of Indian books do not have ISBN." Also books published before 1980 do not have ISBN. Only a very few percent of Indian books (that too technical books) have ISBN. I don't know how I can explain this to you. This is a fact. How can 'I' explain. You have to ask the publishers.

I am glad that you are "curious" and not "astonished". Curiosity is the beginning of learning.

I have written 6 medical books. Only 5 of those have ISBN. 3 publishers got the ISBN Numbers. The other publisher did not get the number. What can I do. Doctor Bruno 12:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for butting into this conversation. Given that ISBNs are universal in the west, I see why you're skeptical. Nevertheless, I assure you that it is still common practice for books to be ISBN-less in India. ISBNs are common (though not universal) in English-language publications, but are quite rare in vernacular publications. You can verify this yourself if you like by going over to the British Library's Public Catalogue, and running a search on "purananuru" (a classical text on which there've been quite a few Tamil academic works written recently). If you look at the ten or so post-1990 Tamil-language publications from all the results the search throws up, you'll see that only two of them have an ISBN listed. The results are more or less the same for any other Tamil term one looks up - and these, being books the British Library thought important enough to acquire, actually come from the better publishers, who're obviously more likely to acquire ISBNs than smaller publishers. -- Arvind 15:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to offer my knowledge of the subject. After reading this discussion, I went to my bookshelf to check. My copy of Srimad Bhagavatam, published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Mumbai, has no ISBN that I am able to find. It is a hardbound book with strong pages, a stiched binding, and a plastic dust cover. This same book can no doubt be found on many bookshelves in India. Surprisingly, however, I noticed that some of the books in my posession, also printed in India, which were of much lower quality had ISBN numbers. I'm not sure why that should be the case, but it is. Anyway, I hope that my observations may be of use to someone. Sincerely, --BostonMA 12:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

That indian books dont have ISBN numbers is the most ridiculous thing i have heard in a long while. If someone is trying to hide behind such a claim and push some POV, i request the admins and other wikipedians to put it down with an iron fist. I am Indian and have worked in Indian libraries full of books by indian authors and i know it for a fact that any book authored by someone worth his salt has an ISBN. I havent come across any book that has been written by a reputed author and published by a publisher with some standing that doesnt have an ISBN. If someone is making that claim, sorry to say...he/she's just plain lying.67.164.5.90 03:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

This is factually incorrect. Many books by reputed authors in India do, in fact, lack ISBNs. For example, one of the standard commentaries on the law of arbitration in India is Bhachawat, Justice R.S., Law of Arbitration and Conciliation (3rd edition, Wadhwa & Co., Delhi: 1999). It does not have an ISBN. This book is authoritative despite the absence of an ISBN: it was written by a judge of the Supreme Court, for heaven's sake! I'm happy to provide photos of the relevant pages of the book if you don't believe me, but you don't have to take my word for it. Search for terms in Indian languages on the British library's public catalgoue [3], and you'll see how many of the recently-published books in native languages lack ISBNs. This obviously doesn't mean that any book is worth citing - a lot of what is published in India, particularly on ancient history, is utter rot. But the presence or absence of an ISBN is *not* a good way of separating the reliable from the unreliable. -- Arvind 08:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

About editing

I honestly do not have the time to add more information to an existing article. I try to work on whatis available. Anyone is welcome to expand the article then i can work in tandem to wikify the article. Nivus|(talk)|(desk) 09:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

You are doing a great work. And i am grateful that you are not moving the contents from the Article Section to the Talk Page, instead of deleting that altogether. Carry the good work. All the bestDoctor Bruno 12:56, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Cricket

Sachin Tendulkar

What you call negative points remain because they are cited as per WP:V - feel free to add positive points (as you call them) if they are from reputed sources such as Wisden. Do remember to adhere to WP:NPOV. --Gurubrahma 13:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

He has scored runs. Why can't that be added. I feel that his failures fill the page rather than the success.Doctor Bruno 13:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The current state of the article (before your edits) doesn't have my endorsement and I do realise that it has POV issues. However, the way to remove it is not through adding other POV. Regular editors like me try hard to maintain whatever sanctity remains and then work slowly in removing all POV - however, we never succeed because some one else comes along, doesn't spend time in understanding the policies of WP (doesn't spend time to even check the relevant links) and adds his own POV. Very few interact the way you do, and your interacting is a good thing, no doubt, but even in your case, I prefer that you read all the links rather than raise questions. --Gurubrahma 17:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I was a bit confused. When my line comparing sachin with other batsman (in Pakistan) was removed, I thought may be it was a policy (this is Sachin's page, why bring others). But 2 paras above, there were a lot of remarks (Rahul scored when sachin did not score etc). THat was Why I asked you.Doctor Bruno 17:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Rahul Dravid

Hi! Your edits to the Rahul Dravid article though well cited was deleted by me. The second statement you added under criticism was in first person & also did not adhere to NPOV. It's a good thing that you cite your sources (most people don't even do that!) but remember to get as close as you can to NPOV. I hope this won't discourage you from editing.

Thanks

Srikeit^{(talk ¦ ✉)} 09:40, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I have just one doubt. Is criticsm against NPOV Doctor Bruno 14:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

• I have made comments on Dravid's talk page regarding your use of second innings stats to compare Dravid and Tendulkar, because I do not think you have not compared them on an equal setting. Also there are other POV statements.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 01:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. That was a mistake. I have removed that. I did not realise the wrong filter used. Doctor Bruno 02:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Ayyavazhi and Duryodhana

While there is nothing wrong in mentioning Duryodhana in the Ayyavazhi articles, it is not appropriate to insert it in the main Duryodhana article. Ayyavazhi is not notable enough to be mentioned there and in a number of places. It is the same as including Ayyavazhi in the Menstrual cycle article (see [4]). There is nothing wrong creating dozens of Ayyavazhi articles, but it is wrong creating links from every possible location on WP. - Parthi 20:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ayyavazhi

When you have

   * 13.1 Buddhism on menstruation
   * 13.2 Christianity on menstruation
   * 13.3 Hinduism on menstruation
   * 13.4 Islam on menstruation
   * 13.5 Judaism on menstruation
   * 13.6 Sikhism on menstruation
   * 13.7 Tribal societies and menstruation
   * 13.8 Mysticism

What is wrong in Having Ayyavazhi on Menstraution

Please note that I am not a follower of that religion, but I feel that we don't have any right to deny an existence of a religion. When you permit Tribal societies and Mysticism, I feel that Ayyavazhi has a place.

This is my opinion. Please correct me if I am wrong. I want a discussion and not argument Doctor Bruno 03:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Similarly, I feel that it should be included in the list of religions also Doctor Bruno 03:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi! All the religions you mention about are a million times more notable than Ayyavazhi. Ayyavazhi is not even a recognised religion in India. Wikipedia has a Notability guideline which prevents us from doing precicely this. There a literally thousands of minor religions in this world, and all of them probably have an opinion on menstruation. What will happen if all these thousands of religions want mention in that article? We are compiling an encyclopedia, not a world fact book.Tribal societies and mysticism are generalised sections in that article which give an overview of the practices. Ayyavazhi with its miniscule followers does not belong in that article. - Parthi 20:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Duryodhana

When you are mentioning "In Kumaon region of Uttranchal" in the page of Duryodhana and not limiting to mention Duryodhana in Kumaon (for example), I think the same logic should be followed for Ayyavazhi also

Again this is MY opinion and I would like to see a consensus Doctor Bruno 03:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Please correct me if I am wrong. I want a discussion and not an argument The following copied from User talk:Venu62 - Parthi 19:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Recognition

With reference to your comment on my talk page that "Ayyavazhi is not even a recognised religion in India", Sorry for my ignorance. What is a "recognised religion" in India

By the way, my district collector (meaning State Govt) declares an holiday on one of their festivals [5]

Any how, my simple question is that "Just because we are not aware of something, it is justified that we oppose articles about it in Wikipedia"

Again this is MY opinion and I would like to see a consensus Doctor Bruno 12:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose the census data is one of the things that distinguish a 'recognised' relegion. This page contains the data from the 2001 census and a spreadsheet which contains state-wise data. The data from Tamil Nadu has the number of Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Budhists, Others and Relegion not stated. There are 54985079 Hindus, 7252 'others' and 59344 who have not stated their relegion. Obviously, the government has not counted Ayyavazhi as a seperate relegion. Tintin (talk) 13:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The government in 2001 may not have counted Ayyavazhi as a seperate religion. But the same government declares an occasion as Gazetted Holiday in 2006 (for the first time). Does it tell you something. If there is a change in 2006, why not we accept that Doctor Bruno 16:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

When did TN government's vote grabbing attempts become equivalant to official recognition?! BTW the holiday was declared in a couple of districts of TN, and not for whole state. Does this make Ayyavazhi notable enough to include in a encyclopediaic summary article of a bodily function? I don't think so - Parthi 19:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

To answer your question "If we are not aware of something, does it justify opposing it?" - Of course it does. That is how WP evolves - through negotiations and challenges and verifiability. If the subject is proven to be verifiable then it is allowed to exist by the community. Ayyavazhi in my opinion has utterly failed in the notability and verifiability criteria. Going by your argument anyone can create any article on any subject and use your argument to justify its existence. It will totally undermine WP's reliability as a source. - Parthi 20:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you have totally misunderstood my reply. I said WP evolves and grows based on challenges and skepticism by the WP community. We don't (shouldn't) anything at face value. The most imortant criteria in Wikipedia is its Verifiability. For example, if I create an article on, say, a species of three eyed monkey, and base the article solely on my having seen the monkey, it will be challenged and deleted from WP. Notability and verifiability demands that any subject documented should be (a) verifiable - ie should be independently documented from a neutral point of view by a reliable third party, meaning I can't one of my friends to create a website on the three-eyed monkey and cite that website as reference in my WP article, and (b) Notable - ie should be relatively well know beyond a select group of people. In this example, I can't claim notability for the three-eyed monkey just because myself and a friend of mine have seen it.

If an article is questioned based on the notability and verifiability criteria, it is not because the article is untrue, but it just means it is not a suitable WP article. An encyclopedia does not contain unverified information, nor does it contain original research.

I am not familiar with your problems with the article Medical School but it does show that WP works. There is a conversation happening and a compromise will be reached.

Coming to the Ayyavazhi issue, I have nothing against the faith itself or its followers. My only issue was the way User:Vaikunda Raja had inserted Ayyavazhi is places it does not belong. There is no reason an obscure faith such as Ayyavazhi should be listed on par with the world's major religions.

- See this discussion. The same user had gone and created hundreds of links on pages with no apparent connection with Ayyavazhi. The List of religions page perhaps warrents a mention os Ayyavazhi, that is why I agreed to leave it there. But See and and even the . I think this is a blatent attempts of evangelical zeal that does not have a place in WP - Parthi 22:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

What I meant by When did TN government's vote grabbing attempts become equivalant to official recognition? was was this the first time TN government try to get the votes of a minority group. Obviously there are quite a few followers of Ayyavazhi in the districts mentioned, although they may think themselves as non-hindus. Declaring a holiday IMO is a way of pandering to this group. - Parthi 22:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's not go into all that. Yes, Ayyavazhi merits a place in List of Religions, but not in summary articles like Menstrual Cycle etc., at least not yet. Let us try to add valid references from among those suggested by Vaikunda Raja at Talk:History of Tamil Nadu. I'd suggest that they publish more on this subject in peer-reviewed conferences and journals and then add relevant references here. Because, Wikipedia is not a place for submitting primary research results.

An article like Religion in Tamil Nadu would cover more of such subjects. I'm interested in collecting references to the so-called "pagan" religions that stand largely hinduised now. Yes, there's a systemic bias in societies favouring organised religions, but WP can't do much about it in the absence of primary sources.

By the way, DoctorBruno, since you mentioned that you live/work in Puthiamputhur, can you take photographs of Vandimalaiyasamy, Vandimalaichchiamman, Muththaalaiyamman, etc., The majestic deities have since been replaced with stone sculptures in sitting position in my native place, Ettayapuram. :-( -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Notability

Dear Parthi, I accept that I can't claim notability for the three-eyed monkey just because myself and a friend of mine have seen it.

What I am telling is that I can't claim non-existence for the three-eyed monkey just because myself and a friend of mine have not seen it, but unfortuantely many people, perhaps being over zealous in preserving notability (which is per se not wrong), go over board and assume from the other end.

I agree that few users (or rather one user), if unchecked, would have created such an impression as if Ayyavazhi was the most dominant religion in India and we have the moral obligation to oppose that. But my question was "are we justified to be over zealous to remove the name from the list of religions page". If you reflect now (as you have already said), the name deserves a mention in the list of religions page. But Why did you delete it three times from that page ?? Please note that this is not a personal question.

I have told from the first instance that I am not endorsing the hyperactive pro-ayyavazhi wikipedians. My aim in this discussion is to bring to your (and other wikipedian's) notice the above phenomenon of claiming non-existence for the three-eyed monkey just because myself and a friend of mine have not seen it which has been growing in the (correct) aim of preserving notability.

And then there are few other problems also 1. Most Indian books do not have ISBN 2. Many Indian Books are not available in Amazon 3. Most Indian Books are not indexed by Google Books. (You have to send the book to their address and for that postage costs atleast 10 times the cost of the book)

Hence you cannot say that some thing is not notifiable just because it is not found in these places I can give another example. See [[6]] How to substantiate the claim that J is a skilled illustrator ??? Which book with ISBN can you quote for that or is there a book in Amazon with his illustrationsDoctor Bruno 12:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Village deities

If you're anywhere near Kovilpatti, you can ask someone about these deities and where they're situated. I know of at least one Muthalaiyamman temple near the Bazaar in Ettayapuram. There are many temples of Vandimalaiyasamy in Naduvirpatti at Ettayapuram. The one in south street of Naduvirpatti has a stone sculpture in sitting posture. But, I'd be more interested in majestic clay statues that are in lying posture. Actually, having both these photos could help to illustrate the influence of organised hinduism on these village practices. If you're going to Ettayapuram, just mail me and I'll give you my grandfather's contact number. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 13:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll also see if I can be around that time. :-) -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)