Talk:Martin Luther/Copyright of Luther's Works

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Discussions on Copyrights of Luther's works:

Contents 1 On the Jews and Their Lies and Copyright 1.1 Copyright Status of On the Jews and Their Lies 2 Summary and Update about Copyright and On the Jews and Their Lies 2.1 Status 2.2 Online searches not sufficient to establish status 2.3 Publisher claims never gave permission 2.4 Short quotes fair use 2.5 Quote from WP:COPY 2.6 Report of Conversation with Forham University 2.7 Search for Paul Halsall 2.8 Quote from WP:OR

[edit] On the Jews and Their Lies and Copyright

Deleted link to On the Jews and Their Lies: The website shows no signs of having asked for permission to post this document. As the editor for Project Wittenberg, I know both publishers of Luther's Works quite well. To date they have never granted permission to copy any of the translations in this set. If we wish to reference the volume and page number of a passage from the work, that would be an acceptable (and legal) alternative.

Rev. Bob Smith, Project Wittenberg Coordinator and Electronic Resources Librarian for Concordia Theological Seminary, a seminary of the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod, A.K.A., Bob of the Fort, A.K.A. CTSWyneken

Avoid copyright paranoia. The link is on a remote site, so whether it is infringing or not only concerns us - well, remotely. If it's considered a violation, the website owner will get in trouble, not us. Furthermore, it is a socially and historically valuable document (whose commercial value is questionable) and only part of the entire "Luther's Works", so it is arguable whether the online reproduction for educational use cannot be considered fair use. In any case, I find it questionable to claim a translation copyright on a public domain work. I say the link should stay until a copyright holder complains about it. --Eloquence 20:11 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Actually, linking to a page that violates copyright is against the wishes, if not the policies of Wikipedia. wikipedia:copyrights The page in question really is infringing because:

1. Translations are considered under established copyright law to be works of original authorship. See U.S. Code, Title 17, Chapter 1, Sec. 101 , 1030[[1]], [[2]].

2. The site copies On the Jews and Their Lies completely. In copyright law, this counts as the "work as a whole" Title 17, 1, sec. 107 (3)[[3]]

3. Fair use analysis of the work is as follows:

1. The character of the use is non-profit, but not educational. In terms of the law, educational means employed in a regular course of instruction at an accredited institution of learning (Elementary, middle, high school, college or grad school) Because the use is in a publication, the courts likely would find against this factor.

2. The nature of the work is historical and non-fiction, so this factor would likely weigh in favor of fair use.

3. The amount is the full work, which finds against fair use. Indeed, its social relevance would increase the finding against fair use in this factor.

4. The effect on market, as interpreted in the courts, is negative and likely to weigh against the use.

With the finding of three of four factors against fair use, the courts will likely find it infringing. In addition, it concerns us in that recent copyright cases have found sites linking to infringing net resources to be contributing to that infringment. While the USSC has yet to rule on such cases, it is established precedent on the appealate level.

Finally, if you were to buy a TV from a fence, should you say: "But I didn't steal it?" Bob of the Fort CTSWyneken

---

Let's accept for a moment that the translation of Luther's public domain texts are copyrighted (which I find morally, if not legally highly questionable) and concentrate on the fair use issue:

1) Educational use: I would like to see citations that educational use only means "employed in a regular course of instruction at an accredited institution of learning (Elementary, middle, high school, college or grad school)". Currently Wikipedia, a non-profit educational project, uses hundreds of images as fair use (see Wikipedia:Image use policy).

3/4) The text is clearly part of a much larger compilation of 55 volumes. True, the text alone is probably a "whole work" as per US law, nevertheless, certainly the fact that this is a negligible portion of the marketed product should have an effect on the interpretation, esp. of its commercial relevance. Would distributing a single Encarta article have a substantial effect on the market for Microsoft Encarta?

I find the matter of fair use debatable, and I encourage the site owner very much to go through with a court case. In the meantime, it is not our job to prematurely decide whether or not the use is infringing -- we can just sit back and relax. It seems paranoid to remove a link because someone, at some point, might interpret the linked content as infringing, in which case it is highly unlikely that linking sites would in any way be concerned.

Lastly, theft and copyright infringement have nothing to do with each other. Please do not use incorrect analogies.

The text of "On the Jews and their Lies" is of high relevance and importance for the understanding of Luther's person, and I find it despicable to engage in self-censorship even of relevant links in the name of the fiction of "intellectual property". Wikipedia should set an example for common sense, not for paranoia and fear. --Eloquence 21:42 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)

In continuing the discussion,

"ON THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES by Martin Luther, in this year 1543 Translated by Martin H. Bertram"

"The following text is the English translation found in the hard cover edition of "Luther's Works," Volume 47, pages 137-306, published by Fortress Press/Philadelphia (1955). Trough a failure to renew the copyright in 1983, this fine translation has fallen into the public domain. May it cause thinking Christians to look closely at the nature of their relationship with God, and not as an incitement to evil."

The foregoing is the statement on the web site that is linked to, http://reactor-core.org/secret/on-the-jews-and-their-lies.html

The assertion by the Canadian (indicates B.C. as home) owner of page that the copyright was not renewed is in doubt as I have previously shown. Further, I can see that in the later printing which retained the copyright, 1971, that there are no changes that I can readily see. When I check the notes, they are the same notes as in the book or as on the CD-ROM all of which are copyrighted. The page owner also asserts at least one other book to be out of copyright and now in the public domain, but I have not researched that.

Looking at some of the links on "reactor-core.org," I myself would be hesitant to link to that page even if it had something of value. I find some of the pages that comprise the whole to be of questionable value. It is for others to determine for themselves if they are of the same opinion, but on moral and ethical grounds, I could not.

As to "Luther's Works (AE)," [LW] the question of "fair use" came up. It should be noted that while the set is called Luther's Works, each volume came out in different years and was added to the set at those times. Also, two different publishing houses, Fortress and CPH (Concordia Publishing House) published individual volumes that comprise the set and both have copyrights not to mention any holding by the CD-ROM version people in cooperation with the publishing houses. The volumes are on a large variety of subjects, but each volume is a book unto itself. The gentleman who owns "reactor-core.org" (please note the .org for organization and that organizations often have specific agendas) too, if I am correct, 170 pages of the book, specifically pages 137 to 306. That is more than half the book! I don't think that that constitutes "fair use."

Herr Eloquence, I did not think that you were the sole author of the article. As a matter of fact, one of the disturbing things was a name that I found associated with the effort when I first looked at it. I did not think it wise of the individual make comments that I did not think he was qualified to make. That was what initially upset me not to mention the fact of the questionable use of "Vol. 47" by the ".org" page owner. As a matter of fact, by excerpting as he did, he left out important segments to include comments that 'wish he (Luther) had not written what he did,' etc. Volume 47 is number 4 of 4 on the Christian in Society. In vol. 47 you also find polemics on what where believed to be heresies. The other volumes include many positive things if one were to read them, e.g. schooling for the young.

As to the "viewpoints of other congregations," I suspect you meant synods as congregations compose synods, supposedly of like mind in doctrine, or at least as some Lutheran church bodies understand the term. You will find that the word synod can have more than one meaning. As to church polity, I won't even get into that issue as polity varies from denomination to denomination.

There are those more qualified to edit than I. I just point out the biased stance that the article appears to take and the fact that copyright infringement may be in play. Best Regards, P.E. 20 June 2003 ___

[edit] Copyright Status of On the Jews and Their Lies

From Bob at the Fort:

Not quite sure where to start in continuing this discussion, let me start with the copyright status of the work On the Jews and Their Lies.

First of all, the text of the work first appears in German in 1543, followed by a latin translation in 1544. The text in its original language appears in the authoritative Weimar Ausgabe, 53:414-552. The date of this edition is 1920. Since both predate 1923, the latest year when a previously published item can be safely assumed to be public domain, (see "When Works Pass Into the Public Domain," http://www.unc.edu/%7Eunclng/public-d.htm). So, the translator may create a derivative work without permission. (which is what a translation is according to Title 17 of the US Code, Chapter 1, sections 101 and 103. (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/101.html and http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/103.html) So, whether or not we like it, (and there is much about the law I don't like and have said so to my Senators and congressman) the fact is that legally a translation was copyrightable before 1978 and is copyrighted automatically since 1978. This translation is, to the best of my knowledge, the only one ever done of this text into English. If you'd like to do one and donate it to the public good, I'd be willing to post it. Now, the only remaining question is whether or not the work was renewed. The first edition of the work appeared in 1955. According to the evidence mentioned by PE, which I have verified, the work was either renewed or entered a second edition in 1971. It's difficult to tell which. Complicating matters is that a good number of copyright renewals are not recorded in the Library of Congress' online databases. Worse, they will not certify the results of any search that they do for you. To discover the status, I've contacted the publisher, who holds the rights to the set. I'll need to do some digging to provide references to the definition of an educational purpose and will add this info later. On the fair use criteria and how to apply them, check the information at: http://www.copyright.iupui.edu/ The author is an expert in copyright law, holding a teaching doctorate in law and a second doctorate in library science. He is a regular witness before congress on copyright issues. In the mean time, I'm content to let the link stand. CTSWyneken

[edit] Summary and Update about Copyright and On the Jews and Their Lies

(Copied from Talk:Martin Luther and the Jews, Talk:On the Jews and Their Lies)

[edit] Status

Verso of the Title Page, Luther's Works, Vol. 47, "The Christian in Society": (c) 1971 Fortess Press, Library of Congress Number 55-9893, ISBN 0-8006-0347-8

Laura N. Gasaway, J.D. (Director of the Law Library, Professor of Law, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill), "WHEN U.S. WORKS PASS INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN": "Published from 1964 - 77, When published with notice, 28 years for first term; now automatic extension of 67 years for second term." http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm [5]

Therefore, Augsburg Fortress is correct; the still hold the copyright in this work.--CTSWyneken 15:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Online searches not sufficient to establish status

Warning from US Copyright Office on trusting the office's records: "Searches of the Copyright Office catalogs and records are useful in helping to determine the copyright status of a work, but they cannot be regarded as conclusive in all cases. The complete absence of any information about a work in the Office records does not mean that the work is unprotected." [6]

Project Gutenberg: "Rule 6 in the Copyright HOW-TO describes the situation in which an item copyrighted between 1923 and 1963 may be in the public domain if it was not renewed. (Items from 1964 and afterwards were automatically renewed; items prior to 1923 are in the public domain.)" http://promo.net/pg/vol/howto6.html [7] The volume in Which "On the Jews..." appears was published in 1971. --CTSWyneken 15:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC) [edit]

[edit] Publisher claims never gave permission

I called the publisher. To verify, You are welcome to call Augsburg Fortress also. http://www.augsburgfortress.org/copyrights/contact.asp [8]

I have an inquiry in to Fordham as well. Will report back what they say. --CTSWyneken 15:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC) --CTSWyneken 15:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I contacted Augsburg Fortress, and they have indicated to me that they have never given permission to post "On the Jews and Their Lies" translated by Martin Bertram on the internet. The copyright is some 16 years more recent than the first volumes of Luther's Works, so the copyright still stands. drboisclair 15:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Short quotes fair use

Short quotations and excerpts, however, are fair use. I can provide links, if anyone would find that helpful. --CTSWyneken 11:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Quote from WP:COPY

Linking to copyrighted works is usually not a problem, as long as you have made a reasonable effort to determine that the page in question is not violating someone else's copyright. If it is, please do not link to the page. Whether such a link is contributory infringement is currently being debated in the courts, but in any case, linking to a site that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on us.--CTSWyneken 01:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Report of Conversation with Forham University

Staff members report that Forham University is not responsible for the content of the Internet History Sourcebook. They host these documents for Dr. Paul Halsall, who is no longer with the University. I have initiated an attempt to reach him. --CTSWyneken 00:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Search for Paul Halsall

Since I had not been able to find Dr. Halsall, I asked the American Theological Library Association list ATLANTIS for assistance in locating him. One of the librarians called the University of North Florida, where Dr. Halsall last taught. The librarian was told Dr. Halsall no longer works for an academic institution. I was given the email of another person associated with the Internet Medieval Sourcebook, who will check their files for a permission letter. I will report back when I learn more. --CTSWyneken 02:29, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quote from WP:OR

Research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is strongly encouraged. In fact, all articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research," it is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. --CTSWyneken 00:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Also note that a talk page is not an article. It is a place to explain why edits and additions are made or suggests such. --CTSWyneken 00:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Who do you believe holds the copyright, CTSW, and do you have any evidence to support your belief? Also, can you explain the relevance to this discussion of the passage you cited from NOR? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

As I've noted above, I have the printed copy of Luther's Works, volume 47, which contains the original printing of the translation of "On the Jews and Their Lies" that has been scanned and placed on the internet in two separate locations. The copyright holder is Augsburg Fortress Press, the successor to Fortress Press. They published the volume in 1971. In addition, I called the publisher, who verified that they still hold the copyright. They also stated that they have never given permission to have this work placed on the internet. Another editor, drboisclair, has also called the publisher, and received the same reply.

The WP:NOR quote was inserted here in reply to the accusation that looking this up and making this phone call, I was engaging in original research. Does that help? --CTSWyneken 01:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)