Talk:Marrano

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[edit] First talk

Someone should find out if the spelling is maranos or marranos and then fix the article to use one spelling or the other.

"marranos" in Spanish

What was first? The use of "marrano" for pig or for Christian ex-Jews? I heard that the word comes from maran atha. The same question for xueta.

There is should be a mention of those Marranos (Conversos?) that were devote Catholics. Torquemada and Teresa of Avila were (probably?) descendants of conversos.

There should be a mention to the concept of limpieza de sangre.

-- 62.99.88.10

"They became very influential through their wealth and intelligence..." Rather POV, no? How about "wealth and intellect", which is at least less loaded. -- Jmabel 06:09, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"wealth and education". -- Error 01:39, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] marrano or converso

As both this article and the converso article point out, many regard the term marrano as derogatory. Wouldn't it be better to merge this article with converso? --Sentience 03:36, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The origin of the term appears to have been derogatory, but I don't think it is considered derogatory today. The two descendants of Marranos I've known at all well use the word quite proudly. -- Jmabel 03:52, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

It still would be clearer, I think, to have all the information consolidated in one place. If "marrano" is generally considered acceptable, then I suppose the converso article should be changed to redirect to it. I first became aware of the term converso when I was living in New Mexico. I noticed that there is no reference to the New Mexico community in this article, and I was thinking of adding to it, along the lines of the information on such sites as http://www.nanrubin.com/html/melton.html. --Sentience 02:45, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

User:IZAK has proposed that Converso be merged into Marrano. Converso cannot redirect to Marrano because the former means "convert", especially from Judaism or Islam to Christianity. So, it is much more inclusive. Marrano only refers to Spanish Jewish converts to Christianity, and moreover only those who secretly practised their own religion. A specific term can redirect to a general one, but not the other way around.
Therefore, we should either have separate articles, or merge Marrano into Converso. Note also that if you dislike the term marrano (and it was an insult), there is also the more neutral term judaizante.  :) — Helpful Dave 16:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I've just looked again and noticed a big mistake. According to all dictionary definitions, marranos were only those conversos who were both Jewish and secretly continued their rites. This article gives details of such people, but also talks about Jews who enthusiastically converted to their new religion and totally dropped their heritage. These people were not marranos! They were just Jewish conversos. All the info about them should be moved to Converso. Only the stuff about the ones who hid their true religion should be at Marrano. In fact, if we are going to dismember the article in this way (and it seems we must), we might as well just move all the content to Converso, and give that article sections like "Muslim converts to Christianity" and "Jewish converts to Christianity", and explanations of the different types of Jewish conversos, i.e. the enthusiastic ones, the sneaky ones (marranos), etc  :) — Helpful Dave 16:59, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Muslim converts are at Morisco. A third type of Jewish Converso is the one that has had an instruction in philosophy, Judaism and Christianity and is skeptic about it all. People like Spinoza were misadjusted when they had to leave Spain and ended about early Sephardic true-believers. --Error 00:12, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ah, we have quite a lot of info at Morisco. That changes things.  :) — Helpful Dave 14:18, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i agree that marrano is insulting, it's like saying "nigger". but as most jewish history today is written and analyzed by ashkenazi jews, non-sephardic jews, they don't seem to mind the term marrano. this entry should definetly be linked to "converso", and headings like "types of marranos" should be changed to "types of conversos" or more to the point. "types of judios escondidos", if what the spanish called marranos were those who continued to practice judaism. roberto ibeto99@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.91.140.130 (talk • contribs) 8 June 2006.

[edit] Etymology

Can the attributed etimology of "marrano" as a Hispanicization of the Arabic "moharrama" (apparently meaning "a forbidden thing") be substantiated? Al-Andalus 15:44, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC).

According to Diccionarios.com, marrano means:
marrano (ár. moharrama, cosa prohibida)
  1. m. Cerdo. (pig)
  2. Converso que judaizaba ocultamente. - (Convert who secretly practised Judaism)
  3. adj.-m. fig. Hombre sucio y desaseado. (Dirty, filthy man)
  4. El que se porta mal. (One who behaves badly [a swine])
Also, my Diccionario Esencial Santillana de la Lengua Española 1991, ISBN 84-294-3415-1, partially agrees:
marrano, na (del ár. muharram, prohibido, aplicado al cerdo (forbidden, referring to pork)) s. m. y f.
  1. Cerdo. (pig, swine)
  2. Judío converso que seguía practicando en secreto su religión. (Jewish convert [to Cristianity] who continued practising his religion in secret)
SIN. (synonyms)
  1. Puerco, cochino, guarro. (Pig, swine, slob, filthy...)
  2. Judaizante. ([secret] practitioner of Judaism)
ANT. (opposites)
  1. Limpio; educado; decente. (clean, polite, decent)
FAM. (related)
Marranada, marranear, marranería.

I have added translations in fine print for the Spanishly-challenged.

So, it seems that marrano meant "not kosher", and was used both as a synonym of cerdo ("pig") and also mockingly to refer to "unkosher" Jews, i.e. ones who did all the traditional things Spanish Catholics do such as eating ham and going to Mass, but were sneakily still Jews. Aren't humans weird? It's funny how we label each other.  :) — Helpful Dave 16:20, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now Jayjg has come up with maharram. We might mention that JewishEncyclopedia.com says it's from maran atha ("our Lord hath come")  :) — Helpful Dave 19:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here are some possibilities: [1] [2]. I've added the one from the American Heritage Dictionary. Here's an interesting letter about it: [3] Jayjg (talk) 23:02, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Joan Corominas says that for the meaning New Christian it is "undoubtedly" a figured application of marrano ("pig") "applied with sarcasm to converted Jews and Moors". For the sense "pig", it is "probably" from Arabic máhram (máhran in vulgar pronunciation) "forbidden thing".
He references Marrano, Storia di un Vituperio (Geneve, 1925) by Farinelli (?)
He attributes the idea of separating both senses of the word to Mariana (Father Mariana?) that translated anathema maranatha sit as Sea anatema, marrano y descomulgado. Mariana's proposal was repeated by erudites and even DRAE, but "nobody concedes it belligerance".
Yakov Malkiel tried to bring it from Arabic barrâni ("foreign"), but Corominas counters with Farinelli's work.
Corominas then reviews several etymologies for "pig". He prefers máhram to muhárrama.
From Diccionario Crítico Etimológico Castellano e Hispánico.
--Error 23:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
All this needs to be worked into the article. How about getting the actual Hebrew and Arabic instead of just these transcriptions? Any Hebrew and Arabic experts here?  :) — Helpful Dave 14:30, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Misc remarks

The Inquision could only trial christians; not jews. If a jew converted, he was a christian and hence he could get into trouble; not before. A jew in Spain after the expulsion (1492) was a civil matter; not religous.

Marrano was used by jews to insult converted jews (there is an associated meaning of traitor). After it was used by christians. Today the term is still insulting in Spanish. Agaist what it is said below, I doubt that one could be proud of being marrano; though one could be proud of having jews ancestry; i.e., one could be proud of being a converso but not a marrano.

"marrano" according to the Diccionario de la Real Academia (already below but here the link) http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltGUIBusUsual?TIPO_HTML=2&LEMA=marrano

According to Camilo Jose Cela, most of the Spanish people have jew and arab ancestry. This is not a new approach; have a look to "El Tizón de la Nobleza" (The Blot of the Nobility [of Spain], 1560). The Cardinal Mendoza (a common converso name) was unhappy because his nephew had problem with his "limpieza de sangre" and this report try to demonstrate that the whole nobility of Spain could not pass a "limpieza de sangre" without bribing keepers of the "Libros Verdes" (Green Books).

The "Gran Rabí" of Spain (I forgot his name) at the time of the expulsion (1492) converted. The godfather for the baptims were the Catholic Kings; well, he was probably family as Ferdinand was from the Enriquez family; a family of conversos. The "Gran Rabí" was connected to the House of Alba; the Inquision would never dream of bothering him. Question of money and power. A poor jew would be different matter.

Indeed, the "limpieza de sangre" started because of money and power: a way avoid competition for civil and military posts. The idea came from Vizcaya as they are in the north and less likely to have and grandfather calles Ali and a grandmodther called Rebeca.

The books of "El Capitán Alatriste" (A. Perez-Reverte) illustrate this subject. As long as I am aware, they has not been translated into English as the author is not very entusiastic for the translation. One of the book of the serie has the title "Limpieza de Sangre"

http://www.capitanalatriste.com/escritor.html?s=bibliografia/fl_limpieza_sangre

A film is being made on the El Capitán Alatriste: http://www.capitanalatriste.com/aventuras.html?s=ov_lapelicula

Concepts to be included:

  • Cristiano viejo (old christian)
  • Cristiano nuevo (new christian)

(the above was added anonymously 20 April 2005; I moved it to the bottom of the page -- Jmabel | Talk 04:41, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC))

  • I agree with pretty much all of this (except the spelling!) with two caveats:
    • Cela, while a fine novelist, is not particularly an authority on the extent of Jewish ancestry in Spain.
    • While "marrano" may remain an insult in Spanish, it is a neutral term in English. I've occasionally heard "converso" used in English, but all of the roughly half-dozen people I've met who had this ancestry themselves either used "marrano" or "crypto-Jew" to refer to their own background. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:51, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WARNING

WARNING: Much of the material in this article is inconsistent with the source material from which it purports to derive. In particular, claims that the Marranos were ultimately responsible for the Spanish Inquisition are not supported by the articles cited source. Neither is such a claim supported by other sources on the history of the Inquisition. Some of the material in this article thus may be rightly considered anti-Semitic. (Added anonymously at top of article 9 July 2005, moved here.)

  • If you think specific statements in the article aren't borne out by the cited sources, please indicate what passages you have a problem with. That is a lot more likely to get the article fixed than a blanket statement like this. (By the way, at a quick read, I think you are basically correct.) -- Jmabel | Talk 00:07, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
  • FWIW, it's not from the 1911 Britannica article Marano, which is very short (although it also seems almost to blame the Marranos for the Inquisition as well). In its entirety:

MARANO (accursed or banned), a term applied to Jewish Christians in Spain. Converted to Roman Catholicism under compulsion, these " New Christians " often continued to observe Jewish rites in their homes, as the Inquisition records attest. It was in fact largely due to the Maranos that the Spanish Inquisition was founded. The Maranos made rapid strides in prosperity, and " accumulated honours, wealth and popular hatred " (Lea, History of the Spanish Inquisition, i. 125). This was one of the causes that led to the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492. Maranos emigrated to various countries, but many remained in the Peninsula. Subsequently distinguished individuals left home for more tolerant lands. The Jewish community in London was refounded by Maranos in the first half of the 17th century. Hamburg commerce, too, owed much to the enterprise of Portuguese Maranos. In Amsterdam many Maranos found asylum; Spinoza was descended from such a family. There are still remnants of Marano families in Portugal.

See Lea, loc. cit. and elsewhere; see index s.v. " New Christian "; Graetz, History of the Jews, Eng. trans, see index s.v. " Marranos "; M. Kayserling, in Jewish Encyclopedia, viii. 318 seq. ; and for the present day Jewish Quarterly Review, xv. 251 seq. (I. A.)

Having read through the article, it seems quite horribly POV. Jayjg (talk) 07:52, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] About Spanish and Portuguese usage of marrano

BEGIN text copyed from [[Talk:New Christian#Merge from Marrano]]

I suggest Marrano to be merged into this articles since, first, they have the same subject, and second, for being a better name as New Christian [...] were also insulted as marranos and also according to my portuguese language dictionary marrano refered to either actual Jews or Moors not to converted Jews. Nabla 15:33:00, 2005-08-10 (UTC)

The other article is far more complete. Jayjg (talk) 19:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Against. DRAE says: adj. despect. Se decía del converso que judaizaba ocultamente. U. t. c. s.; no Moriscos in Spanish. Besides, New Christians are obviously Christians, so unconverted Jews or Muslims are not included. +
cristiano nuevo 1. m. y f. Persona que se convierte a la religión cristiana y se bautiza siendo adulto. For the RAE, there is no mention of Jews or Muslims. However for cristiano viejo: m. y f. Descendiente de cristianos, sin mezcla conocida de moro, judío o gentil. +
Since "Marrano" is lifted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, I gather that in spite of the insulting intention, its usage is accepted in a historic context. +
--Error 19:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
OK, the insult argument became void. And apparentelly the word is used differently in Spain and in Portugal, at least it is refered differently in our dicionaries... Anyway this is reason enough for me to remove the merge tags.
I think this may be relevant to the marrano article so I'll copy this discussion to its talk page Nabla 00:18:43, 2005-08-11 (UTC)
END text copyed by Nabla 00:18:43, 2005-08-11 (UTC)

[edit] Anusim

Worth mentioning that 'Anusim' actually means 'raped men' in Hebrew. 'Constrained' would be 'mugbalim'. I have never heard 'anusim' used for Marranos. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.6.169.96 (talk • contribs) 3 June 2006.

[edit] In Sefaradí Tradition

Most of commentary here exposed shows the contradicting way modern historians have dealt with the issue. None seem to agree either in its application or origin, but have used it freely without paying a attention to the actual documentation available. These are the facts:

  1. The term "Marrano" was a word appearing first in the 15th century, and it was a word used primarily by Spanish Old Christians who discriminated against converted Jews to Christianity, or New Christians. [Check Carrete Parrondo’s Fontes (II, p. 53)]
  2. To this day, the word "Marrano" is used in derogatory ways, but no longer in connection to having Jewish ancestry. In fact, their descendants still call themselves "Jews."
  3. If one were to check all available Spanish Inquisition documentation, the Catholic Church did never used the word "Marrano."
  4. If one were to check all available works and literature of Sefaradim from the 15th to the 18th centuries, no Jew ever used the word "Marrano" to refer to the converted Jews and their descendants. Check the available rabbinic legal opinions regarding their cases at: http://www.judaismo-iberico.org/responsa/resp.htm
  5. Only after the 19th c., the term "Marrano" became commonly used by historians of Ashkenazi origin.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dramirezg (talk • contribs).

Hello Dramirezg,
I've reverted your edits as they are written in an unencyclopedic manner and lack proper sources. I hope that you can reinsert a sourced and properly written version at some point soon though. You may want to look over the Wikipedia basics on your userpage. Cheers, TewfikTalk 22:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

With reference to what Dramirezg says:

  • Points 1, and 3 are most likely simply correct (assuming "ever not" means "not ever").
  • On point 2, I don't know about the first claim. On the second claim, I imagine that is true of some; many others were aware that they had unusual traditions, but didn't know that they were Jews.
  • On point 4, probably so; hard to prove a negative.
  • On point 5: probably correct. However, I would add that although the reclaiming of this term probably began with historians of Ashkenazi origin, it is now quite common among the people it referred to, especially among those who were unaware that their family traditions were of Jewish origin and who only discovered this after reading about the phenomenon of crypto-Jews. - Jmabel | Talk 04:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jmabel:

  • On point 2, only people who come from Hispanic countries can tell you this, and not books. Ask any Spanish speaking person what the word "marrano" means to them, and then ask them if to them it means Jew. Then, you will appreciate my point.
  • On point 4, please read La Divina Providencia (17th c.) by David Nieto, and Shebet Yehudah (16th c.) by Salomon ibn Verga, both Sefaradi works that speak of Anusim, or forced Jews living as Catholics, and you will see that these authors do not refer to them as "Marranos". Both were important rabbis.
  • The question one must ask on point five, why would a Jew would call another fellow Jew a "Pig". It does not make sense. Most Jews using it today do not even know what it means, but those who began using it knew what it meant. If that is the case, if people beging to consider Jews "assholes", is it OK for everyone to refer them as "assholes" both in writing and in speech?

--Dramirezg 00:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

  • On point four, this can certainly indicate that someone else used the term, but not that no Jew ever used it. As I said, the negative is probably correct, but almost impossible to prove.
  • Again, on points 2 and 5, I have more than a few times heard people of this background use this word to refer to themselves, among them Benjamin Melendez. Melendez is a native Spanish-speaker, but he is also either a native New Yorker or close to it (I'm not sure where he was born; his parents were born in Puerto Rico, and he grew up in New York), so he would have had a lot of contact with Ashkenazaic Jews, who form over 10% of the NYC population. I've also heard the term used by a woman from New Mexico who only in the 1990s had come to realize that her family traditions were Jewish traditions. Again, she may well have learned the term from Ashkenazim. I'm not sure of her linguistic background; her Spanish was fluent, certainly better than mine (which falls slightly short of fluency) but we conversed mainly in English so I didn't have much chance to judge. Etymology is not a clear mark of whether a word is an insult. "Yid" has an impeccable etymology, but is an insult. - Jmabel | Talk 01:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear phrase

"The last remaining community, in Belmonte, officially returned to Judaism in the 1970s." Does this mean the last remaining Crypto-Jewish community in North Eastern Portugal? Or does it mean something broader? And, if so, did the others cease to be Crypto-Jewish by also returning to open Judaism? By giving up Judaism entirely? By dying off? - Jmabel | Talk 04:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jessianos

Is there a citation for this? I've never heard it; I can't find anything online; and the double "s" would be very unusual in Spanish, though there are other languages in the region (including French) where it exists. - Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me see if I can find one. --Epeefleche 04:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roth

We have a passage, which I am about to wikify:

According to Historian Cecil Roth, political intrigues in Spain promoted anti-Jewish policies, which culminated in 1391, when Regent Queen Leonora of Castile gave the Archdeacon of Ecija, Ferrand Martinez, considerable power in her realm. Martinez gave speeches that led to violence against the Jews, and this influence culminated in the sack of the Jewish quarter of Seville on June 4, 1391. Throughout Spain during this year, the cities of Ecija, Carmona, Cordova, Toledo, Barcelona and many others saw their Jewish quarters destroyed and massacred. It is estimated that 200,000 Jews saved their lives by converting to Christianity in the wake of these persecutions.

Can someone indicate title and page number of where Roth says this? The article cites two books of his; that would be a lot for someone to look through to find this. - Jmabel | Talk 00:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

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