Talk:Mark Rathbun

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[edit] Marty Rathbun is still listed as executive in this website

http://www.foundingchurchdc.org/dc/profiles.htm

and here: http://www.dianeticsscientology.nl/pers.asp - added by Barbara Schwarz from IP 172.184.65.167 at 00:42, 29 December 2005

It appears that those links haven't been updated yet. If you click on the name Marty Rathbun, the links that they point to as reference have been removed. You don't honestly claim that you think that Marty Rathbun is still the Inspector General of RTC? Still? Is their some reason why we shouldn't believe the RTC's own web pages? Vivaldi 14:37, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rumours of death

What about these rumours on ARS about his death? [1] Anything to take seriously or worth mentioning in the article? (Entheta 21:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC))

They are nothing to put in an encyclopedia article. Vivaldi 17:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


Removing a website means nothing but that a website is removed, Vivaldi. It doesn't mean that the person is dead or not more a Scientologist or whatever. -- Barbara Schwarz actually added by 216.190.11.85 (talk • contribs • count)

[edit] Why is Warren McShane a dead link?

There was a wikipedia article on him a couple of weeks ago, and it seems to be gone now. Is there a clambot with access to Wikipedia's servers? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.170.224.208 (talk • contribs).

I think you're thinking of Gerry Armstrong. Without going into details, there was an article on Gerry but it wasn't the content that got it deleted, but legal issues involving the primary-if-not-sole contributor. So far as I know, Warren McShane has never had an article, though one would be a good idea. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


I don't believe there was ever an article about Warren McShane on Wikipedia. Google never found it, although it does show that he is mentioned in the Xenu article. Vivaldi 06:36, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Rathbun affidavit

It was easy to find a better source than the newsgroup link, here it is: DECLARATION OF MARK C. RATHBUN, with the scanned signature. But since it's not determined whether or not it is relevant to the article, I will not add it to the article. Raymond Hill 23:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

... Great minds think alike. =D -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
What was the context of the affidavit? Was it submitted to the courts in the Gerry Armstrong v. Scientology court case? If so then the court document would be an acceptable source. I haven't read the whole thing so I am not sure what information that the document provides that is relevant to an encyclopedia article about Rathbun, but if there is any relevant information, then this affidavit should be acceptable. Vivaldi (talk) 05:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It appears that it was submitted in the appeal to that case -- the affidavit makes reference to "the trial court" and "Judge Breckenridge" accepting Armstrong's representations. There's some information there which could be relevant to other articles, mostly detailing what a good game Hubbard talked about being honest and ethical and truthful (and I like the bit where Rathbun actually tries to claim that "fair game" is a "direct reference" to being at the mercy of the "barbaric" "lay justice proceedings" of the non-Scientological parts of the world.) For Mark Rathbun, it only supports that he was at that time (8-13-1991) President of the Religious Technology Center and Inspector General for Ethics (or at least that at that time, Scientology was letting him claim those positions in court documents!) Since we don't have any references supporting that now, I suppose the affidavit would be preferable to nothing. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
There is still a web archive of the RTC pages showing that Marty was still listed as the IG of RTC as late as 1 year ago. This archive can be removed at any time, so its still good to have the court documents. Vivaldi (talk) 01:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rathbun's affidavit

MartinaVelvet (talk • contribs) added[2] an external link to a Google Groups (Usenet) posting which claims to be an affidavit by Rathbun. Davidstrauss mentioned that the link verged on reliability problems. However, a closer look shows that the poster is or claims to be Barbara Schwarz -- which means it does not "verge" on reliability problems, it leaps straight in with both boots.

However, I tried Googling sections from the text, to see if it had ever been reproduced by a site we could regard as more reliable. The irony? The only one hosting it is Gerry Armstrong, the very person that Rathbun is accusing in the affidavit of making "outrageous accusations" and "twisting and perverting the facts".

Even assuming we managed to overcome the inconsistency of saying "we should trust the reliability of Gerry Armstrong in order to link to a statement that impugns the reliability of Gerry Armstrong", there's also the issue which, IMHO, makes it pretty moot: it doesn't have much to do with Marty Rathbun, except being his words. He must've said a lot of things during his time with the CoS; I don't really see how this is more illuminating on the subject of Rathbun himself than others. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

How come Wikipedia policies on no attacks are not followed by the contributor? Doesn't that mean that Wikipedia is a bad joke? --Barbara Schwarz actually added by 216.190.11.85 (talk • contribs • count)
Mark Rathbun did write that affidavit but don't link to Gerry Armstrong. Why don't you order the original from the court? Will not break the bank. -- Barbara Schwarz actually added by 216.190.11.85 (talk • contribs • count)
Don't trust Gerry Armstrong. Do what any good researcher does. Go to the court and get an authorized copy. That was also obmitted in the wrongful Wikipedia article on me. -- Barbara Schwarz actually added by 216.190.11.85 (talk • contribs • count)
Part of the problem is that while Marty indeed probably said many words over the last 25 years -- any that did exist on Church of Scientology servers have been systematically erased from the internet since Marty's mysterious disappearance. There may come a time when this affidavit is one of the few reliable sources that even mentions his name at all. Vivaldi (talk) 05:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This document is part of court case Case No. B038975 (verifiable). I read somewhat the content, and mostly Mark C. Rathbun disputes Gerry Amstrong's negative views about Hubbard writings (fair game, etc.) For the current article, there are these claims about himself (can this be used as cites?):
«I am the President of the Religious Technology Center»,
«I also hold the ecclesiastical position of Inspector General for Ethics»
«My life is dedicated to the support and preservation of the Scientology religion and its scripture,».
Also, examples of interesting statements to maybe be used elsewhere in the Scientology series (significant since from a then top-ranking official):
«Compared to Scientology ethics and justice procedures, lay justice proceedings are, in fact, barbaric.»,
«the Scientology scriptures themselves are comprised of over 50 million words» (this contradicts other sources, even CoS ones I think),
«Scientologists, as a group, are the most ethical people in the world today. In fact, the ethical standards which they maintain are far and above those of any other group.», etc. -- Raymond Hill 16:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


You read *somewhat* the content. How superficial is that? Anyway, I let you in a little secret, Raymondo. I think that Gerry Armstrong doesn't understand the affidavit. That is why he webbed it. He also thinks that when he webs it, that people think it is not true what Marty wrote, otherwise he would not web it. Otherwise, Scientology policies and procedues are not barbaric, you mix hat up with something else. Marty is right, Scientologists are the most ethical people on earth, but listed carefully, that does not include non-sccientological infiltrators who claim that they are Scientologists too.

Finally: that article on Marty should be deleted as the smear article on me. Anti-religious extremists wrote them to smear Marty and me. I heard once that Jumbo Wales said that Wikipedia contributors should not write any articles about people who are alive. How come he and others don't implemented that? -- Barbara Schwarz actually added by 216.190.11.85 (talk • contribs • count)

[edit] Barbara's theories

I really don't think that half the article should be taken up by this. Henry Kissinger, William F. Buckley, Jr., and many other people are also the objects of conspiracy theories; but half of their articles are not taken up detailing them. I will not do any more editing on this article. Do what you like. But IMO you would score more points against the CoS, if that is your object, by just giving the facts about Mr. Rathbun without sending the reader off in another direction altogether. Wishing you the best. The real Steve Dufour 16:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright violation

Mr. Rathbun and perhaps the C of S has the copyright for that photo. Wikipedia and nobody else has it. Wikipedia violates the copyright by webbing that photograph of Mr. Mark Rathbun. Otherwise, the article seems rather confused and one-sided to me.

Barbara, is this you? --Tilman 18:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and put a tag on it so it will be looked at. I don't know if it meets the standards for fair use or not. Steve Dufour 07:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
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