Talk:Marie Antoinette

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Contents 1 Old move debate 2 Requested move (21 Jun 2005) 2.1 Discussion 2.1.1 Hyphen? 3 Phimosis 4 Move? 5 Move to Maria Antonia of Austria 5.1 Straw poll 5.2 Discussion 6 Linkspam? 7 Inappropriate tone? 8 Let them eat cake 9 finally consummated 10 NPOV? 11 Fear of revewing concepts? 12 Citation Needed 13 Misleading succession box removed 14 Painting 15 Louis XV's relationship 16 Her son 17 NPOV 18 Marie Antoinette Date of execution 19 Burial Execution 20 Trivia - Madonna & Christina Aguilera 21 Large removal of material 22 Check the price of the necklace 23 Trivia - never saw the ocean 24 Trivia 25 Lack of formatting in page 26 Movie Verus Reality

[edit] Old move debate

[edit] Phimosis

Can anyone confirm (based on a reliable source) that Louis was not suffering from phimosis, but was rather oblivious to or ignorant of wedding-night rituals? I have read accounts of an intervention of HRE Josef II (brother of Marie Antoinette) with Louis in 1777, where he encouraged the king to have an operation to correct the cause of painful erections. -M

Pubmed shows two articals suggesting that he did in fact have phimosis (both in french though). Likewise, I've seen it claimed by a number of other sources. I think the current statement that he did not have it is much too strong to make without a definitive source. Otherwise it should be changed to something like "may have had". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.196.193.152 (talk • contribs) 23 June 2006.

I understand that one article in pubmed argues that Louis XVI may have had a frenulum breve, which can be surgically corrected without circumcision. Here's the citation:

G. Androutsos, "Le phimosis de Louis XVI (1754-1793) aurait-il ete a l'origine de ses difficultes sexuelles et de sa fecundite retardee?" Progres Urologique, 12 (1), 2002

However, I have not read the article. The issue here is that this article needs a citation that Louis XVI to support the statement that he did not have phimosis. The article as currently written gives Louis XVI misleadingly implies that Louis had a clean bill of physical health, which may not be the case at all.

Currently, the statement Nor was it true that he suffered from phimosis. contradicts secondary sources like Encyclopedia Britannica, which imply he did have a physical disability that contributed to his marital difficulties. (Though, of course, no citation is given there either). Further, the statement is contradicted by an article's internal link to the Wikipedia article on phimosis, which states that Louis XVI did have the disorder.

Until the evidence is in, I think this statement: Nor was it true that he suffered from phimosis. should be deleted or qualified. Rather, the article should present both hypotheses fairly in the absence of conclusive evidence: he had a physical disorder (perhaps phimosis or perhaps a frenulum breve) or he was psychologically unprepared for form of intimacy he had to perform, as the article currently suggests. Wtfiv 06:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

According to Antonia Frasier, who wrote the most recent biography of Marie Antoinette (the one the movie was based on), Louis XVI did NOT have phimosis Donthaveaspaz 09:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC) if that isn't a definitive source, i don't know what is

[edit] Move?

[edit] Linkspam?

In the external links: Autrichienne perdue sans collier, by Gilles Marchal. (1)Hideously laid out page. (2) I can't quickly work out if it's non-fiction, historical fiction, or what. But my French isn't great, and I'm not inclined to give it a lot of time. Possible linkspam: User seems to have been adding a bunch of links to one site: Contributions. Exact same link added to Louis René Édouard, cardinal de Rohan. - Jmabel | Talk 04:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

please, don't remove this links, They result from a very serious French site and can bring a new light on these articles concerning of the French events. It is not a question of linkspam. thank you in advance Adrienne93 02:16, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inappropriate tone?

I see this is tagged with {{inappropriate tone}}. All this tells me is that someone doesn't like someone else's writing. Would someone please indicate explicitly what they wish to see addressed? If there are specific issues, they can be addressed, but if that doesn't happen in the next week or so, I think the tag should simply be removed. It can always be re-added when someone is able to be explicit about the problems. - Jmabel | Talk 15:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I've read over the article and I don't see a problem with the tone. -Will Beback 22:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the issue is that the article is more novelistic than encyclopedic. For example:

The Dauphin and Marie Antoinette were then married in front of the court, with Marie Antoinette wearing a magnificent dress with huge white hoops covered in diamonds and pearls. There was then a formal dinner, which was also held in front of the crowd. Louis-Auguste ate an enormous amount. When the king told him to eat less, the Dauphin replied "Why? I always sleep better when I have a full stomach!"

"Magnificent" is definitely POV and "huge" is a little informal. It is also uncertain as to why this information is included at all. Why is it important to know that the Dauphin ate a lot of food? And if you think it is important, why don't we include other "anecdotal" information? Where do you stop? I didn't post the tag, but I agree that the overall tone of the article and the facts being presented are fairly informal.Pageblank 16:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

When referring to the wedding dresses of the brides of heirs-apparent of major monarchies, I think that "magnificent" may be an NPOV term. "Ornate", "expensive", "lavish" are other words that might be used, I suppose. Change "huge" to "large" if you like. Regarding the other details, it establishes the nature of court life, and the way that the subject was introduced to it on her very first day. Lastly, the detail about the Dauphine's appetite confirms the fact that he had no idea that sleep was not the primary activity on a wedding night, which turned out to be a critical issue in the marriage. -Will Beback 01:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the tone is somewhat informal but nonetheless, it is not a blatant problem and if anything takes away the boring "only state the facts" tone. The extra details allow the reader to identify with Marie Antoinette's views as well as how the people perceived her.

On this, I don't think that the article should serve to identify with her views- it should provide an unbiased view of them. See below. -Elizabennet 20:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree on the view-point that the article reads too much like a book. The article also shows little understanding of Marié and her imaturity/incompetence; it's much too royalist. Moose in the Corner 02:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC) 20:21,

[edit] Let them eat cake

The article states her famous "let them eat cake quote" (which is well known to have not happened) to have been atributed to have taken place during her Coronation but the History Channel special on the French Revolution says it was claimed to have taken place during the bread riots, the "march of the women" when the king and queen were forced to move to Paris. Granted, since this is a atributed quote and not a real one, its imposible to pin down but a think the latter date is the more correct of the two. I wanted to get conformation on this before I went and changed it.

Without any source here to refresh my memory, I do think you (&History Channel) are correct. Tazmaniacs 12:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] finally consummated

Didn't Louis have to have a operation before he was finally able to consummate the marrage? Not just the conversation mentioned in the article? or am i wrong?

According to the article:

• Nor was it true that he suffered from phimosis.

If it were true, then he would have needed a very minor operation. -Will Beback 00:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

That entire paragraph makes no sense. "Rumours would later circulate that Louis-Auguste was impotent, but this was not the case" and "Years later, King Louis XVI would have the surgery though that would permit him to be free from impotency" Could he get it up or not? The sentences seem as if they should be cleaned up as well.

I don't know of any surgeries performed during the day that would cure impotence. In fact modern times seem to still be lacking in a surgery for impotence. I mean you've seen the viagra, cialis, etc. commercials? Youknowthatoneguy 10:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

this seems to be horribly biased throughout, particularly in the sections talking about her life as queen.

Biased for or biased against? The fact that I don't know in which direction you are complaining suggests that it is not. - Jmabel | Talk 16:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The claim that this article is objective or even "unbiased" is rooted in ignorance. Both the diction and the selection of facts presented heavily favor this unfortunate queen. I would attempt to edit the entry, but I believe it to be beyond repair, and must be deleted and a new one must be submitted.

I agree this sounds like it was written by Marie Antionette herself or someone who loves French royalty. Youknowthatoneguy 10:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah this literally sounds like it was taken from one of the positive books mentioned in the reputation section. It sounds too much like a story rather than an encyclopedic entry.

[edit] Fear of revewing concepts?

Historical evidences shows she was a martyr. But most people still cling to the idea that she is the ultimate symbol of the decadent, foolish, bourgeois lady. Why?

"Historical evidence" cannot show that anyone "was a martyr" (except in the sense that some individual or institution may have declared them such). - Jmabel | Talk 16:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation Needed

In the first paragraph of the "Life as Dauphine" section there is a story I have never heard before or read about "once tipped a bucket of dirty water on Antoinette's head as she walked underneath her window" very unlikely!!! there has been a "citation needed" sign next to this since the 9th May, there has been ample time for someone to find proof of this, since no-one has im deleting it, if there is proof put it back. --Stevenscollege 22:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah...how did this get featured with no in-line citations and only two references, incomplete references at that. I'm not an expert on the topic, so it might be all good. Or maybe not. There's really no way to tell. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 05:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading succession box removed

The utility of charts, succession box, templates & so forth mustn't abuse us. To put a "succession box" on this article, claiming that Joséphine de Beauharnais "succeeded" to Marie-Antoinette is an obvious historical short-cut which totally bypass the events of the French Revolution. Beauharnais did not succeeded to Marie-Antoinette, unless you consider that Lenin "succeeded" to the Tsar... It was rather like an overthrowing in the last case... Although I'm sure some find these boxes very cute, an encyclopedia must first of all give correct information, and this also goes for images, pictures, categories & all these boxes. Tazmaniacs 12:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Painting

Is the painting used on the front page the same one here? If so then we can finally ad the painter and the year it was painted.

http://www.linternaute.com/histoire-magazine/interview/06/xavier-salmon/marie-antoinette/presentation.shtml --Jimmyjrg 22:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Louis XV's relationship

Someone keeps correcting "granddaughter-in-law" in the section Life as the Dauphine, to daughter-in-law, so I have qualified it by inserting a small note that Marie-Antoinette's parents-in-law predeceased her arrival at Versailles. I mean, it should be obvious but this person KEEPS editing it! User Gboleyn

[edit] Her son

Two hours after the commissioners had entered her room, Marie Antoinette had to say goodbye to her beloved son.

She would never see him again.

OK, so what happened? This is uninformative, unnecessarily dramatic and unencyclopaedic. The paragraphs do not state whether her son was murdered, or if it's even known what happened to him. Strongly suggest rephrasing.

Surely they could simply click on the link for Louis XVII; after that, Marie-Antoinette didn't seen him again and so his eventual death (almost two years after her own) doesn't necessarily need to be included? "Beloved" may be a bit hyperbolic, but it is emotionally true given her maternal instincts. Perhaps replace it with "young" so that the article doesn't seem insensitive to the human tragedy, but doesn't necessarily express any deliberate preference for or against the royals? User:Gboleyn

I would include some information (say, "He died two years later in captivity") from the Louis XVII article here to avoid misapprehension on the part of those who don't click the link; I, for one, did think that the paragraphs implied that he was murdered some time after. This, actually, is my more general point: such style as used in the text is too vivid and too much subject to interpretation to be sufficiently factual. Not only do I object to the the word "beloved" (why bother to replace it with "young" if the readers can click the link?) but also to expressions like "Marie Antoinette had to say goodbye" which implies, for example, that she had the chance of saying so (did she?), which is probably not what the paragraph means to imply. In short, the text unnecessarily sacrifices encyclopaedic style for sense of drama.

Please excuse my nitpicking but I hope you see what I mean. 194.157.147.7 11:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. I've changed the final sentence in the paragraph to something a little less emotional. Let me know what you think. User:Gboleyn

Looks good, I like it. 194.157.147.7

[edit] NPOV

Added a bias tag- this article, while very well-written, is also very biased. It shows only the positive parts of Marie Antoinette's life, and it should probably also discuss other points of view. Thoughts? I noticed that this has mentioned several times before, with no real response. I mean, I think Marie Antoinette gets represented unfairly a lot, but this article is hugely biased and should at least try to be more objective. -Elizabennet 20:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

My thoughts are that the article is well written and it creates one of the more balanced portraits of Marie Antoinette that is to be found. The article does not shy away from her shortcomings nor does it over emphasize her good qualities. It also deals with how her reputation has changed over the years and identifies the treatment of that reputation by authors. I am a loss to see what else could be added to the article to make it less-biased, if in fact it is biased. Ladydayelle 20:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

---

id like to see an english translation of her last testament.

I agree, this article is pretty heavily biased in favor of her. I mean several biographies have been written that are VERY critical of her but almost everything is drawn up from her more "Favorable" portraits.

I found this article very well-written and informative, having read it from a position of knowing nothing previously about Marie Antoinette. I don't know if the general tone of the article is 100% perfect, but I thought I'd let you know how I'm left feeling as a result of reading it:

• Before having kids, Marie was very selfish, spending lots of money and squandering the initial good will that she had from the French
• After having kids, Marie stopped her selfishness to a large degree, and devoted herself to working for charity, and raising her children. The article doesn't seem to offer much criticism of her from this point on, other than to suggest that having her own private village built was simply a bad mistake, and she had no realisation that doing this would make the French hate her more
• The Affair of the Necklace was in no way the fault of M.A. and she was simply the victim of someone's else's cunning plan.
• It was rumours and gossiping that led to the hatred of the French towards the Queen.
• During the revolutionary period, M.A. did nothing herself to deliberately fuel the republicans' hatred towards her, yet the French still wanted her dead.

My only knowledge of Marie Antoinette is that which the article has given me, so if the conclusions I've mentioned above are pretty accurate, then it's fair enough to assume that there is no bias in the article. Otherwise, perhaps more objectivity could be written into it. I suppose with the vilification of her over the years it's difficult to know what is accurate and what isn't, but I did feel that this article wasn't overly opinionated. Sorry for rambling a bit! Hope this helps --El Pollo Diablo (Talk) 00:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I haven't contributed to this article before reading it today, but I too found it to be reasonable-sounding and unbiased. Until someone can show some evidence that this is violating the NPOV policy, I've removed the NPOV tag. —Cleared as filed. 03:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marie Antoinette Date of execution

Insert non-formatted text hereInsert non-formatted text here

At the top of the Antionette page it has her birth - death as (November 2, 1755 – June 16, 1793) but later it is said that she was guilotined on 16th Oct 1793. Which one is right?

The second one in October. On the following site it says she died in October.

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/burke.htm

[edit] Burial Execution

There is a confusing statement in the last line about the restoration of her grave, it is minor but it states that "gray matter" was found. I don't think this is referring to brain material as it should have long since decomposed. I don't know it's just confusing to me because it mentions bone fragments right beforehand. Youknowthatoneguy 10:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia - Madonna & Christina Aguilera

I removed the trivia related to Madonna and Christina Aguilera (that Madonna performed "Vogue" at the MTV awards costumed as Marie Antoinette, and that Aguilera portrayed some of her "bedroom style" in the "Lady Marmalade" video).

I don't think there is documentation that Madonna intended to portray Marie Antoinette: I saw that performance as it aired. It came off as nonspecific French 18th century aristocracy, and seemed to be a reference to Dangerous Liaisons, which had recently been popular. If there is a quote in print where Madonna says that she portrayed Marie Antoinette in that performance, then that part should be restored. Otherwise, it's just opinion, and not particularly informed opinion.

As far as Christina Aguilera goes, the "Lady Marmalade" video was released as part of the promotional blitz for the movie Moulin Rouge. That film is set in the late 1890s, more than 100 years after the death of Marie Antoinette. The singers in the video portray late-19th-century prostitutes, with a significant modern twist; in the photo I link just below, she is even wearing a 19th century corset. So, this tidbit is absolutely incorrect and should not be restored to the article, even if there is documentation for the Madonna trivia.

[3]

4.225.129.36 10:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC) I know that on VH1 Behind the Music it is said Madonna portaryed Marie Antoinette but perhaps she was not.

[edit] Large removal of material

Unregistered user 206.77.103.101 who seems to have a short history of not very useful edits has removed a large quantity of what looks like good material from this article just now - is this something people think we should correct? The only plus being that the article is already pretty long. This page is getting quite a lot of vandal attention following the recent movie. MarkThomas 23:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

length = breadth of detail = breadth of knowladge available. if it's all good information, isn't the general rule "the longer, the better"? Donthaveaspaz 09:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Check the price of the necklace

It is stated that the value of MA's entire jewellery collection was 2 million livres, and also that the necklace in the "affair of the diamond necklace" cost 2 million livres, alone. It seems unlikely that both could be true, unless inflation played a major role in the value of the necklace. Can these prices be verified?

[edit] Trivia - never saw the ocean

Is there proof of this? she definitely traveled around certain parts of France spending time at the various royal chateaus (Fountainbleau, the Tuilieries, St. Cloud, etc. besides the obvious Versailles), and in the new biography it's mentioned that Louis inspected the shipyards at the north of France, even though MA didn't accompany him. But it wouldn't have been very hard for her to see the ocean, so where's the proof? Donthaveaspaz 10:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't think there's any proof as such, this is just one of those things people infer from her known movements - her life seems to have been an incredibly constrained one of life in the palace, visits to Paris and one or two aristocratic houses and that's it. But proof - no. I doubt though that she took to the autoroute du soleil for a quick break in Monaco. :-) MarkThomas 17:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Marie- Antionette is referred to in the biography Marie- Antoinette- the Journey as having never seen the ocean. Please be aware that this written by Antonia Fraser, the most highly esteemed biographer in modern Britain.

Not that highly esteemed by scholars, surely. john k 04:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

She's pretty well regarded amongst academics I think, although I recall from university history society discussions that some feel she creates too much from too little evidence, apparently this is considered particulary true in her books on Oliver Cromwell and King Charles I. However, from decades of history reading, I would propose this is a curse suffered by many history writers, academic and otherwise. :-) Look at all those books for example on the Roman emperors or Alexander the Great or Athelstan or Alfred - in each case there is usually a dodgy surviving biographical sketch endlessly muddled with by generations of monks plus a bit of difficult-to-interpret archaeology and a few coins and _that's it_ - but on that slender evidence whole careers are built! Still, hopefully with MA there is a bit more actual written evidence to go through. MarkThomas 09:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

in the Voltaire song The Headless Waltz is about Marie Antoinette and her excecution 66.69.112.37 00:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of formatting in page

To the people of Wiki-land;

I've found a inconsistancy in the formatting of this article: usually a page on a

European ruler such as: Louis XII; Charles II[Spain]; Fredrick Barbarossa[Holy Roman Emp. of the Crusades]; all of these have a helpful bars on the side and bottom to point out facts 'in a nut-shell'. I am a new member and cannot edit this article, could a vet. member(s) look into it or form a commitee. It would be cool to have family trees and simular information as well.

                                                           Thank You,
                                                                    Moose in the Corner 01:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Movie Verus Reality

Is it just me, or is this entire article filled with quotes and passages probably directly from the movie without citation.