Talk:Marie-Josèphe of Saxony

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Considering her husband Louis, dauphin de France never became king, since he died before his father did, shouldn't the article's name revert to her maiden form, since the Wikipedia convention on queen consorts would not apply here? Gryffindor 17:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The difficult question is which title did she have as an offspring of an elector-prince? I found one reference here [1], a book from 1747 where she is called "Princessin Maria Josepha". Gryffindor 17:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, as the daughter of a king, it seems she would be a princess. However, there were no Princesses of Poland. Generally, such women were princesses because their fathers were princes in addition to being kings. At some point, the Saxons assumed the title of prince with regard to the position of the Elector as King of Poland, however, there was a year when this started which I cannot remember. She was definitely a Duchess in Saxony and coloquially a princess. I would rather not have her titled princess until it can be determined if it is accurate, however it would be better than what we have here now. Charles 17:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I just received enormous information courtesy StanZegel and Lethiere, who seem very knowledgeable in this area. I will post their replies from my talk page here to make it easier for communication. Gryffindor 07:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Kurfürst was a personal dignity, held by one king, one one duke, one markgraf and one pfalzgraf (plus three archbishops). The legitimate children of each would take their father's principal title, so the daughter of the Duke of Saxony (who was also a Kurfürst) would be styled a duchess or Herzogin until her marriage, at which time she would take the rank of her husband. In the case of Marie-Josèphe of Saxony, that fact that the duke who was her father was also the elected King of Poland is, I believe, irrelevant because the throne was not hereditary so her generation had no claim to the transitory royal status, only the persistent ducal status. --StanZegel (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree that Kurfürst was an office that could only be held by one prince at a time, it was, after all, hereditary. The electoral dynasties gradually adopted the princely title for their cadets until, by the early 19th century, most of their daughters used princess rather than duchess, margravine or countess palatine (Pfalzgräfin), e.g. daughters of the Electors of Hesse(-Kassel), who alone continued to use Kurfürst as their monarchical title until they ceased to reign in 1866.

According to the 1961 Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels Fürstliche Häuser Band VI, Page 19, Marie-Josèphe's elder sister, Marie Amalie (1724-1760), prior to her 1738 marriage to King Carlos III of Spain, was titled (in abbreviation) "Przssin v. Sachsen". Although the Handbuch is not flawless, it does research and record titulature as well as genealogy, whereas the Online Gotha focuses on genealogy more than correct titulature, particularly for previous centuries (the Handbuch is considered the modern incarnation of the original Almanach de Gotha, not to be confused with the current series of that name, which is error-prone as well as hopelessly POV). The only authority that is arguably more accurate on historical titles than the Handbuch is Michel Huberty's "L'Allemagne Dynastique" (AD), which always cites precise, contemporary sources, and begins each volume with a section outlining the history of the dynasty's exact titles. But I don't have a copy of Huberty's volume on Saxony, which is out of print. However, another of Marie-Josèphe's sisters, Marie-Anne (1728-1797), can be found on p. 278 of AD's 1985 Tome IV on the Wittelsbachs, which records her marriage to the Elector Maximilian III of Bavaria. There it is noted that she was the daughter of "Frédéric II, Electeur de Saxe et Roi de Pologne", and her title is given as "princesse de Saxe". Where the Handbuch and AD agree on a title, I have yet to find error! Lethiere 04:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Right, my understanding is that her title before her marriage was "Princess" or "Princesse de Saxe", can we all agree on this? Gryffindor 17:03, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I would rather be certain, as I know there is disparity on what people say about Saxon titles in the 18th and 19th centuries, but the title of Princess sounds fine. If not, it can go here: Duchess Marie-Josèphe of Saxony. Charles 19:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)