Talk:Mao Zedong

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This article has been cited as a source by a media organization. See the 2006 press source article for details. The citation is in: Howard W. French (December 1, 2006). "Who Did What in China's Past? Look It Up, or Maybe Not.". New York Times.

This article has been cited as a source by a media organization. See the 2006 press source article for details. The citation is in: Howard W. French (December 1, 2006). "Wikipedia offers 2 visions of Mao Zedong". Daily Breeze.

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Contents 1 Cultural depictions of Mao Zedong 2 Marriages 3 hey i need info! 4 I feel something is wrong 5 Legacy 6 The International Herald Tribune, 30 November 2006

[edit] Cultural depictions of Mao Zedong

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marriages

The article on Luo Yixiu states that she died in 1910 while this article implies that she was still alive when Mao married Yang Kaihui. Which is correct? Richard Pinch 23:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hey i need info!

i need more info on Mao Zedong!

[edit] I feel something is wrong

I'd like to know, why isn't there written anywhere that Mao is considered by most of the people on earth, to be a dictator? Is this too politically incorrect? (I saw the word dictator isn't even mentioned on the pag about China)

• What do you mean by dictator? Even if Mao Zedong was worshipped, he could not act alone. He could pit one faction of the communist party leadership against another, and he could mobilise the mass, but I doubt that he was ever all-powerful. ----user talk:hillgentleman 08:07, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Has nobody read the excellently researched biography written by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday? This man was a dictator of the like of Stalin and Pol Pot and this should not be concealed for whatever considerations. - Anonymous user

The 2005 Chang-Halliday book has its own entry on Wikipedia: Mao: The Unknown Story. The talk page there is quite extensive and full of discussions on the use of POV words like "evil", "mass-murderer", "dictator" and the like. The problem with words like "dictator" is not that they describe Mao and Hitler and Stalin negatively, but rather that they are so overused as polemics that they are no longer precise descriptions. If you are consulting an encyclopedia, would you prefer the information that Mao was an "evil dictator", or (better) he was a Chinese leader who (here comes the description) undermined other contenders for the Central Committee at Zunyi, kept control of the army by pitting his rivals against each other, unleashed the Great Leap Forward and then blamed it on the weather when millions starved, etc.? Therefore, the best articles on Wikipedia dispense with the emotionally-charged terms, and provide content as the measure of the man or the event. For example, here is an excerpt from Hungarian Revolution of 1956, which recently won recognition as a Featured Article:

In 1945, Soviet Marshal Kliment Voroshilov forced the freely elected Hungarian government to yield the Interior Ministry to the Hungarian Communist Party. Communist Interior Minister László Rajk established the Hungarian State Security Police, which employed methods of intimidation, false accusations, imprisonment and torture to suppress political opposition. The brief period of multiparty democracy came to an end when the Hungarian Communist Party merged with the Social Democratic Party to become the Hungarian Workers' Party, which stood its candidate list unopposed in 1949. The People's Republic of Hungary was declared. Hungary became a communist state under the strongly authoritarian leadership of Mátyás Rákosi. The Security Police (ÁVH) began a series of purges in which dissidents were denounced as “Titoists” or “western agents”, and forced to confess in show trials. Thousands of Hungarians were arrested, tortured, tried, and imprisoned in concentration camps or were executed, including ÁVH founder László Rajk.

Now, reading this, does anyone have any doubt about the type of government that Hungary became? Was it necessary to use the terms "dictatorship", "mass-murder" or "totalitarian"? I was involved in editing this article, and to this day, people still post on the discussion page that it never says that Hungary was a dictatorship! I feel that the encyclopedic & NPOV approach of stating the facts, supported by references, and letting the reader get the full picture, produces powerful prose. Just my two cents - Ryanjo 02:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I have noticed the same problem and have an explanation for it. The Mao page used to be signicantly more balanced. I was actually discussing Mao with an avowed Maoist and told him about the page. That same night the page underwent a complete overhaul and suddenly had a markedly Maoist slant. Though this is completely ridiculous, I'm under the impression that this guy not only rewrote the Mao Zedong page but also talked about it in some Maoist discussion forum, urging other Maoists to keep a watch over the page. This, of course, is not altogether different from Mao's approach to democratic discourse. In point of fact, most historians, from Margaret MacMillan to Jung and Halliday are highly critical of a great many of Mao's despotic motives and actions. I have made a few minor amendments to create a little more balance. It's ridiculous that the page begins by citing what Maoists believe without citing what most historians believe. I'm sure my edits will be wiped out the same way any perceived dissidence was wiped out during the cultural revolution.

Phil Friesen PhilFriesen 03:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy

This part of the article is a total mess. It very often deviates from its purported subject matter, and seems more like a debate betweem pro and anti-Mao advocates.

[edit] The International Herald Tribune, 30 November 2006

This article and the corresponding Chinese counterpart were featured on the front page of the 30 Nov 2006 edition of the IHT. The leader was "In China, a restrained Wikipedia" and the article was mentioned to illustrate how censorship operates in China. The conclusion is that the Chinese Mao article is guarded by the average product of the education system.

Personal anecdote: One very interesting point made in the article is the prominent role of the education system in establishing the party-approved version of history. I have had met some very educated and well traveled young Chinese, and the article is spot on: they really believe the tripe that Mao was a great man and that he saved China. My friend is doing a Ph.D. in physics at Waseda University in Japan, he speaks Japanese well, and speaks, reads, & writes English marvelously. To boot the guy is learning French as a hobby. Nevertheless when I pointed out that (even if we took the high end estimates for Nanking) Mao's Great Leap forward killed more people then did the Japanese my friend answered "it's OK to be killed by your own people, it's wrong for the Japanese to come and do it". Well, dead is dead but how can you reason with someone who thinks like that? You can't. More interesting even is when my friend went back to Shanghai for Chinese New Year and met up with his high school chums, some of them had moved abroad and had done a 180 degree turn; they went from being good Nationalist Chinese to (silent) opponents of the regime who would never return to live in China. Vincent 00:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I wonder what the same Chinese gentleman thinks of the quote by Deng Xiaoping, that Mao's actions were "seventy-percent right and thirty-percent wrong". Obvious, killing one's countrymen is not in the 30% wrong, in his opinion. Not remembering (or understanding) the history of China makes it much more likely that another Great Leap or Cultural Revolution will be repeated. - Ryanjo 03:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's the article link:[1] - Ryanjo 03:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The IHT was inaccurate and misleading. We've been discussing it on the Chinese Wikipedia, and frankly most people are disappointed at this complete misrepresentation of what the Chinese Wikipedia really stands for. After all, we've been blocked three times by the Chinese government, but have never made any concessions to them. zh:User:R.O.C has sent an email to the foundation-l mailing list: [2], listing the inaccuracies in the IHT report. -- ran (talk) 23:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

See also the blog entries by Chinese Wikipedia editor Roadrunner, who was interviewed and then found his remarks misrepresented: [3]. -- ran (talk) 23:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

In any case, I've just brought the intro section of this article in the English and Chinese Wikipedias to sync with each other. -- ran (talk) 03:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The question is why should Wikipedia make any concessions to the Chinese government? For that matter, how could it make them given that Wikipedia is by definition freely editable and peer reviewed? Vincent 04:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia shouldn't make concessions to anyone in matters of fundamental policy, and the Chinese Wikipedia hasn't. As for your second question, the Chinese Wikipedia is freely editable and peer reviewed like any other, the only barrier being the block that the Chinese government has put in place. -- ran (talk) 04:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone else read the beginning of this article carefully? Wikipedia demands a certain amount of neutrality in its guidelines and someone has typed in the words "complete dickhead" in Mao Zedong's page. I had trouble editing it out so if someone could it would be better. Whatever your beliefs may be about any historical figure, this site is intended for informational purposes and not personal opinion.