Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (capital letters)

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters) page.

Some archive talk of interest is at [1].

Contents

[edit] Acronyms

I disagree with the point about 'it is not necessary to capitalize the letters in an expanded acronym to show the source of the acronym:

i.e. incorrect (FOREX - FOReign EXchange)

    correct   (FOREX - foreign exchange)

I think that some acronyms are so contrived and hard to follow that, in these cases, it should happen:

i.e. (made-up example)

MADMAN - MAssive acaDeMic Arsenal Nuclues

Saccerzd 21:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Offering made-up examples doesn't really advance your position at all. Style guides are meant to be practical documents. If the only reason for changing them is to accomodate fictional predicaments, they're no longer as useful.
I agree with the guideline as it's currently stated. Drawing special attention to how the abbreviation was formed insults the readers' intelligence and is not necessary. Reading through the acronym and initialism topic, I've developed the opinion that drawing so much attention to the forming letters is distracting, especially when the the abbreviation is not the actual focus of an article. There are exceptions to every rule, and the wording in the MoS is not so stern as to forbid the occasional straying from the guideline for a particularly hairy abbreviation. It should definitely be avoided, though. So much of it just makes the expansions look weird.
According to Abbreviation, the example in the MoS is a "syllabic abbreviation," not an acronym per se.
--Rob Kennedy 00:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time periods

Such as the Jurassic have capitals. How about the middle ages or Middle Ages? Cold War. Post War? Inter-War years? Victorian era or Victorian Era? Rich Farmbrough 23:01 12 April 2006 (UTC).

How about Hurricane Emily or hurricane Ivan, were they Category 2 or category 2? Rich Farmbrough 12:46 11 May 2006 (UTC).
I'd definitely say "category 2"; for your other questions see "historical periods" below. --Espoo 09:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protocols & Standards

JA: There has been considerable discussion on Talk:Border gateway protocol as to whether the names of things like internet protocols and hardware standards should be capitalized. This has, of course, wide-ranging implications that go far beyond this particular article. We have had some difficulty finding anything in the MoS that is specific and unambiguous enough to resolve the issue. Jon Awbrey 03:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


JA: The Capitalist Conflagration has burst the surly bonds of the border gateway protocol and is now being bandied about at points south of this heading. Jon Awbrey 05:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

See this link for an earlier discussion: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style archive (capitalization)#Capitalization of computer terms --Blainster 07:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nations, nationalities, and ethnicities

Should we add the topic of nations, nationalities, and ethnicities isn't to the project page? Fg2 00:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

Can someone please quote here section 7.16 of the 14th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style? I only have the 15th edition, and neither it nor the Guardian Manual of Style seem to support the capitalization advice given in Wikipedia's style manual. In the 15th edition, chapter 8 is the relevant chapter, particularly sections 8.21, 8.23, 8.25, 8.26, and 8.29. They all call for a "down" style, which I think it more in line with the rest of Wikipedia. --Rob Kennedy 23:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Rob, what is a "down" style? Rich Farmbrough 09:25 6 August 2006 (GMT).
It’s a style that eschews excessive capitalization. It wouldn’t capitalize president unless used as a title in front of the person’s name, as in “Today President Bush signed a bill.” But it would not be capitalized in “Today the president signed a bill” or even “Today the president of the United States signed a bill.” Here are sections 8.21 and 8.22 of the 15th edition:
8.21
Capitalization: the general rule. Civil, military, religious, and professional titles are capitalized when they immediately precede a personal name and are thus used as part of the name (usually replacing the title holder’s first name). Titles are normally lowercased when following a name or used in place of a name (but see 8.22). See 8.25–29 for many examples. For abbreviated forms, see 15.11–18.
President Lincoln; the president Dean Mueller; the dean
General Bradley; the general Governors Edgar and Ryan; the governors
Cardinal Newman; the cardinal
Although both first and second names may be used after a title (e.g., Vice President Dick Cheney), such usage is generally avoided in formal prose. Note also that once a title has been given, it need not be repeated each time a person’s name is mentioned.
Dick Durbin, senator from Illinois; Senator Durbin; Durbin
8.22
Exceptions to the general rule. In formal contexts as opposed to running text, such as a displayed list of donors in the front matter of a book or list of corporate officers in an annual report, titles are usually capitalized even when following a personal name. Exceptions may also be called for in promotional or other contexts for reasons of courtesy or politics.
Maria Martinez, Director of International Sales
A title used alone, in place of a personal name, is capitalized only in such contexts as a toast or a formal introduction, or when used in direct address.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the Prime Minister.
I would have done it, Captain, but the ship was sinking.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Wikipedia isn’t in the business of courtesy or politics, so I don’t see much call for exceptions to the general rule. --Rob Kennedy 19:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I should add a quote from section 8.2:
The “down” style. Chicago generally prefers a “down” style—the parsimonious use of capitals. Although proper names are capitalized, many words derived from or associated with proper names (brussels sprouts, board of trustees), as well as the names of significant offices (presidency, papacy), may be lowercased with no loss of clarity or respect.
--Rob Kennedy 19:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm definitely down with that. Rich Farmbrough 14:43 23 August 2006 (GMT).

[edit] Institutions RE: Churches

Regarding institutions such as universities and hospitals the Chicago Manual of Style is clear on the use of capital letters. However, should we extend this to churches, such that we would refer to the Catholic Church, the church, and not the Church? That would seem to be my interpretation, but I do not have the CMS in front of me, so help would be appreciated. -- Bantab 18:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Sections 8.105–106 of the 15th edition appear to call for lowercase church unless it’s part of the “formal name of a denomination … or congregation ….” The Guardian Manual of Style asks for pretty much the same. However, I don’t think we would generally refer to “the Catholic Church” since the sheer length of the Catholic article suggests the term is ambiguous. Capitalization in that article definitely needs some cleanup. --Rob Kennedy 20:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Academic degrees

I think it would be good for Wikipedia to have a stated standard (or a stated lack of standard) on the capitalization of academic degrees. For example, should it be "John Doe earned a bachelor of science degree from Mars University" or "John Doe earned a Bachelor of Science degree from Mars University"?

Looking at the FAQs from the Chicago Manual of Style website, I find the following:

Q. Should one capitalize academic degrees? I am reading a quasi-academic journal and am wondering about the capitalization of three words in the following sentence: “He was hoping to use his Associate of Applied Science degree.”
A. Chicago style is to lowercase the degree (including the field) in running text and whenever it’s used generically. Generic uses (like the one in your sentence) often are introduced by “a” or “the” or “his.” Capitalize the name of a degree when it is displayed on a resume, business card, diploma, alumni directory, or anywhere it looks like a title rather than a description. You can’t go too far wrong with this if you’re consistent within a given document.

Perhaps we should emphasize the final point about consistency. –RHolton≡– 03:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The"

I notice there is no guideline here for the capitalization of the word "The" before a proper noun. In comics-related articles, editors frequently capitalize "The" when referring to characters with the word "the" in their names, such as the Joker, the Riddler, the Hulk, etc. Any suggestion on how to explain this to editors who do this? --Chris Griswold 08:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the only justification for uppercase "The" would be if it is part of a title. So The Joker might be the title of an issue or episode, but "the" is not part of the character's proper name, so should not be capitalized in ordinary use. --Blainster 07:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Chicago says that the "The" can be subsumed onto the text, depending on context and appearance. So for example to avoid "the The Incredible Hulk's shirt was ripped" even to the extent of 'the "Incredible Hulk"'s shirt was ripped' - i.e. moving "the" outside the quotes. Also I would accept lowering the case of "the" when it is inside quotes, with the possible exception of the band "The The".
Rich Farmbrough 14:54 23 August 2006 (GMT).
At the Slot, Bill Walsh addresses the issue of when the is part of a proper noun and when it’s simply a definite article in the surrounding text.[2] Even if the full correct name is The Incredible Hulk, not every instance of that three-word sequence will use a capital T. On the other hand, Chicago (15th ed., §8.180) says the gets lowercased for all periodical titles, so even if you see the titles The New York Times or The Economist at your news stand, Chicago advises that you write the New York Times and the Economist (except at the beginning of a sentence, of course). This advice has the practical advantage that editors no longer need to check whether a publication happens to include the in its name. I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to extend this policy to other names that start with the. --Rob Kennedy 16:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization in Bullets

Sue Anne stated that when doing bullets, it should be utilized like "Rules and regulations" instead of "Rules and Regulations". I wholeheartedly disagree with this, as whenever you bullet things, and bold it, it should be like "Rules and Regulations" instead of "Rules and regulations". This is so because it then makes the bullet and/or topic more attention-grabbing. From my standpoint, capitalization rules needs to be changed so that anything that's bulleted and bolded to describe a sentence/paragraph before it should be capitalized like "Rules and Regulations", and that headers should read like "Rules and Regulations" instead. I really hate to debate on this, but this rule needs to be changed. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 02:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The bullet, indentation, and bold typeface draw enough attention as it is. We needn't bash the reader in the face; this is not a Las Vegas casino. —ptk✰fgs 21:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vesther still disagrees

To me, the reason why I rely on caps is because if there was a section that describes something, then it would not look good to me (i.e. This Paragraph vs. This paragraph). "This header" doesn't look too good when it comes to describing a header, but "This Header" looks a lot better. I really stand for the fact that there will be times when I have to use caps.

About bullets, this is kind of subjective and arbitrary, but I still have a beef with capitalization usage. Same thing applies as with section naming. I tend to be loose if the bullet is just a paragraph, but I tend to get really stiff if there's bolded "things" describing what's contained in a paragraph (i.e. "What's here" vs. "What's Here:").

Overall, I have a real beef with some aspects of capitalization standards, when you start out a section, it should be capitalized with the exception of verbs. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 22:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You are not alone, others have found our style to be unusual. Nevertheless, it is our style and has been from the beginning. We're not likely to change it, as it would mean changing about a million articles. -Will Beback 22:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's the beef I currently have with the capitalization convention, as I do ask that this has to be changed, even though a million articles is going to have to be modified because of this. I wholeheartedly have to stay my course that the capitalization rules are flawed because of what I'm going through right now. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 02:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Just because of what you're going throught? Let's ask what's best for the articles. And I think our articles are better off without superfluous uppercase letters. —ptk✰fgs 03:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Given Sue Anne's harsh criticism, I still prefer "This Paragraph" to describe a header as opposed to "This paragraph". — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 04:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
A) I don't think my criticism was all that harsh.[3].
B) I don't see why it's being brought into this discussion.
C) I agree with what the other editors have said. This is a style choice based on The Chicago Manual of Style and is a better way of doing things and makes things easier to read.
--Sue Anne 05:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Objection to items A and C. For item A, you were acting way too harsh and impolite. For item C, given that you agree with people who favor Chicago style, I'm going to have to seek a WP:3O on this if by all means possible, as the exception to this is when you, for the least, describe headers. The Chicago Manual of Style shouldn't apply to headers. Not to be disruptive, but that is still my beef with WP's MOS. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 22:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Vesther, you are welcome to seek a change in our manual of style. However please follow it while you are pursuing the change. Intentionally formatting articles in defiance of our MOS is disruptive. -Will Beback 09:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I never defy the MOS, neither I do mass-editing unless it's for the benefit of the surfer. In fact, I don't edit articles that I don't know about (as I tend to leave those articles alone for almost all of the time unless I have to correct the coding), but I only edit the articles that I know about (i.e. the games I played all my life, the shows that I tend to like watching, etc.). :P — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 22:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses the same capitalization style throughout. Article titles and section headings both use the “sentence case” style, so only the first word and proper nouns get capitalized, just like a normal sentence. Wikinews uses the same style for its headlines. I see no reason to single out bulletted lists for a different style. Sentence case is easy to implement because it’s the same in all contexts — it requires less effort from editors. I think it’s also better for readers. When they read the text, they can be confident that when they encounter a capitalized word, it’s that way because it’s a proper noun. When you capitalize everything, capitalization no longer carries any weight. Other places are free to use title case, but let Wikipedia stick with sentence case consistently.

This “everything but verbs” style you mention is something totally new to me. Can you refer me to any publication that uses it? --Rob Kennedy 19:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Check out any newspaper article either on print or online. I hope that clears any confusion you might have (i.e. http://www.chicagotribune.com, or http://www.washingtonpost.com). — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 22:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The Washington Post uses title case for its headlines (e.g., “Bush Staunchly Defends U.S. Strategy in Iraq”). The Chicago Tribune uses sentence case (e.g., “Cop kills attacking pit bull”). Neither matches the “everything but verbs” capitalization style you suggested. Could you please provide a specific example from either of those papers that demonstrates the style you’re asking for? --Rob Kennedy 22:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
OK maybe I'm too vague, but here's a good example on when to use caps when it comes to titles and headers. Hope this helps. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 23:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC) P.S. If you insist, then I'll provide more.
Addendum:—check out this link as well. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 23:15, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Your examples are of title case. Did you really mean to write that a section title “should be capitalized with the exception of verbs”?
There are different opinions concerning which words get capitalized in title case. The one I learned in school capitalized everything but unimportant short words (fewer than four letters). Chicago allows longer words to be lowercase, especially adverbs like through. Sentence case doesn’t give rise to this issue, though. In it, words are capitalized just like they are in regular body text.
So far, your only argument in favor of a different casing style is that it looks better to you, and you even admit that it’s a rather weak reason. You’re going to have to do better than that if you hope to sway Wikipedia away from its current style. (You’re also going to have to demonstrate that you have a clear idea of what you’re asking for, which your Apple.com examples don’t accomplish.) --Rob Kennedy 01:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political adjectives and person-nouns

I suggest that we add the following rule: communist(ic), socialist, liberal, conservative, libertarian, democrat(ic) and republican shall only be capitalized if they refer to a specific political party having the word (or a variant or cognate thereof) in its name. NeonMerlin 00:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] this page title

as the section dictates about headings, why isn't this page title "Manual of style"? --gatoatigrado 23:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The title of this page is not a section heading, so the section-heading rule doesn’t quite apply here. Instead the title is governed by Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words, which starts as follows:

Convention: Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun …

(Emphasis added) In the context of this article, Manual of Style is a proper noun refering to the document made up of the collection of related Wikipedia pages. It’s not just any style manual; it’s the manual for Wikipedia, and its title is Manual of Style. The University of Chicago Press and The Guardian happen to have chosen the same title for their respective style manuals, too, and all are capitalized. --Rob Kennedy 05:40, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Musical genre

I've added a rule over capitalization in musical genres, as I'm changing the capitalization of musical genres a lot lately and I felt it's about time to have a proper guideline over the issue. Michaelas10 (T|C) 14:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] incorrect spelling "Ancient Greece", "Ancient Rome", "Ancient Egypt", etc.

These kinds of spelling errors are very common in WP and this article doesn't seem to provide any guidance. See also Category_talk:Ancient_Greece#incorrect_spelling_.22Ancient_Greece.22.2C_.22Ancient_Rome.22.2C_.22Ancient_Egypt.22.2C_etc. and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requested_moves&oldid=80972773 --Espoo 10:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] historical periods

Partly due to total lack of guidance for many fields on this project page, there is total chaos on WP in capitalisation in many fields, not just history, and the Lawyer Mania of Capitalising Every IMPORTANT Word and then 'adding' "OTHER" Means of emphasis is spreading like wildfire.

"Ancient Japan", "Classical Japan", "Pre-Columbian", and "Colonial America", are all spelled incorrectly. The accepted practice in this field (as shown by Britannica and those university and museum sites i found) seems to demand that these examples and in fact most historical periods be spelled without capitalisation. The only exceptions to this default rule seem to be major geological eras (even those unknown to the general public) and only those historical periods that are well-known and used in general English. The reason "Communist China" as the name of a historical period is capitalised is not because it's a period but because it's the name of a country and therefore a proper noun (despite not being the official name of the country).

I guess the reasoning is that all periods unknown to the general public are essentially descriptive and not really proper nouns; this is especially true of periods that are not clearly defined or that are defined in different ways by different authorities. http://today.uci.edu/resources/word.asp?key=370 says: historical periods and events Capitalize names of widely recognized epochs in history: the Dark Ages, the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, the Civil War, the Atomic Age, Prohibition, the Great Depression. Capitalize only the proper name in general descriptions of a period: medieval France, the Victorian era, the fall of Rome. For additional guidance, follow the capitalization in Webster’s New World Dictionary.

Looks like there is a huge amount of cleaning up to do on WP and looks like the misspelling of "ancient" that some of us have drastically reduced is only the tip of the iceberg... --Espoo 09:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This not a misspelling - it is a difference in style. You may be more familiar with not capitalising, others are more familiar with capitalising. Both are right
I often see Ancient rather than ancient Greece, and Imperial rather than imperial Rome. I'm not convinced we need to dictate one particular rule. Let the authors of each article address style issues based on what is most suitable for the audience they are targetting the article at. Different articles will be targetted at different audience. We shouldn't presume that a one-size-fits-all style is desirable here, jguk 18:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Can you cite some reputable sources where you've seen the capitalised spelling? As explained on Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_November_2#Category:Education_in_Ancient_Greece, the non-capitalised spelling is the established practice in both US and UK spelling on reputable sites and in other reputable sources and in the WP articles. --Espoo 18:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Just search on google to get a guide as to common usage, which is what I'm referring to here, jguk 21:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
That comment is too vague and doesn't support your claim. Did you even bother to look at the link i provided? My extensive research using Google to find reputable sites shows that "ancient" should not be capitalised and that is the general consensus on WP. --Espoo 06:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The link you provided was to some guidance in a style manual. But the style advocated in that style manual is far from universal. See, for example, [4], [5], [6], [7]. Yes, "ancient Greece" seems more common than "Ancient Greece", but the latter capitalisation has a reasonable level of currency. Certainly enough for us not to say it is wrong. If authors believe a style using the latter is suitable for the audience they are targetting, then they should be allowed to use it, jguk 08:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean the link i quoted from. I meant this: As explained on Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_November_2#Category:Education_in_Ancient_Greece, the non-capitalised spelling is the established practice in both US and UK spelling on reputable sites and in other reputable sources and in the WP articles. That has this link http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requested_moves&oldid=80972773#Noncontroversial_proposals with the following links to reputable US and UK sites that are much more authoritative than what you found: but "ancient" is not usually capitalised by careful spellers or reference works even in connection with other countries that don't have modern equivalents. e.g. "ancient Rome" (and the equivalent to "ancient Egypt" of "ancient Greece") in Britannica 2000 and on these reputable US and UK pages (I honestly didn't find or leave out contradictions): [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], Culture_of_ancient_Rome, Ancient_Rome (only one misspelling), Roman_Empire, History_of_Rome (several misspellings), etc.
The sites you provide are problematic, not reputable, amateur, or non-native English, and they either contradict your claim or their capitalisation of "ancient" is only one of many other aspects of their unprofessional editing and lack of expertise:
  • link 1) "the library is created by students"
  • 2) despite hype claiming to be "part of the Granada Learning group of companies - the leading force in UK Education, with a wide range of expertise in all key areas" the important info in that hype is that the site is made by a company, not an outfit that can hold a candle to the reputable sites i listed. It also has the following kind of sloppy and amateur capitalisation back and forth on http://www.angliacampus.com/learn/sec/history/ancemp01/ : "Why did the Ancient civilizations of Egypt, Greece and Rome have such large empires? This is a question that has caused a lot of arguments amongst historians. Was it as a result of their military power? Or did trade and peaceful contact with other countries have more to do with it? Travel back in time 3,000 years, explore the ancient empires of Egypt, Greece and Rome and decide for yourself."
  • 3) a Greek site, i.e. absolutely no authority on English spelling
  • 4) proves my point and disproves your claim: This link only misspells once with a capital in what may be an incorrect quote from a site whose link doesn't work ("Index of Maps of Ancient Greek World: This page provides an index to the maps of Ancient Greece..."), all other cases are headings. --Espoo 18:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The links I provided demonstrate usage. I'd add that if individual editors did not sometimes adopt the same usage, you would not have the issue arising here. jguk 18:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
As i showed, the links you provided demonstrate amateur and unprofessional usage, and the only one that doesn't do that proves your claim wrong. I also checked out the links listed on that fourth site that you provided (e.g. http://www.museum.upenn.edu/Greek_World/Index.html), and they all follow established museum and encyclopedia usage. In addition, all reputable sites i have found in extensive Internet research never capitalise "ancient" in this context. WP should follow established usage on reputable sites and in other reputable sources. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to find a single museum or university site in any English-speaking country that capitalises "ancient". WP is not interested in the sloppy usage demonstrated by your non-reputable sites. --Espoo 19:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Espoo let me know about this discussion through my talk page. There's widespread support, I think, for following what MOS implies and using "ancient Greece", "ancient Rome", etc. In addition to the evidence provided by Espoo, you can see the discussion at Talk:Gymnasium (ancient Greece). I have little doubt that if the same discussion were carried out on other classically-themed articles the result would be the same, and that's because most editors working on these articles prefer to follow the example of well-established academic usage. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acronymns and initial capitals

Can anyone recommend which is correct in the case of Minimum Number of Individuals or Minimum number of individuals, which clearly need to be merged. Normal MOS would be for Minimum number of individuals, except that the community of people likely to look it up would expect Minimum Number of Individuals, because it is normally abbreviated to MNI, not mni or Mni. Viv Hamilton 20:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Both articles already get it right in the body text. They call it the minimum number of individuals. That should be the title of the article, but the first letter should be capitalized since we use title case for article titles.
Acronyms are created by taking the first letters of the constituent words and writing them together in capitals. That doesn’t mean that, to re-form the original phrase, we should keep the capitals. For example: CD, compact disc; IM, instant message; DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid; LED, light-emitting diode; etc. --Rob Kennedy 00:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
(Someone already beat me to it, but I figure I might as well post anyway.)
If the idea is to have a single article at one title, with the other article becoming a redirect to the first, then I don't think it matters too much how people are most likely to look it up; either way, they'll get the right article. So I'd say that it's more important to use the title that best conforms to Wikipedia:Naming Conventions. (That said, one of Wikipedia's naming conventions is use common names of persons and things, so the two issues are somewhat interconnected.)
I don't think the all-caps-ness of the initialism, taken alone, is reason to title-case its expansion; consider LED ("light emitting diode"), TV ("television"), LCD ("liquid crystal display"), BP ("blood pressure"), and so on. Indeed, it's my impression that all-caps are used for most non-acronymic initialisms, even when their expansions are all-lowercase; the only exceptions I can think of offhand are units of measurement (rpm, dpi, psi, etc.), various Internet colloquialisms (brb, lol, etc.), and a few common statistics initialisms (pdf, cdf, etc.).
That's just my opinion, though.
Ruakh 00:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:scaps

I'm planning to nominate template:scaps (see Interstate 469#Interchanges for an example of it in use - "U.S. Route 24 West") for deletion, since it violates Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Directions and regions. Will I have support if I do so? --NE2 06:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that this sort of use is what Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Directions and regions is referring to. Even if it is, that's an argument for using {{scaps|west}} rather than {{scaps|West}}, not an argument for eliminating {{scaps}} altogether. —RuakhTALK 14:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Either way, it's using capital letters to look "pretty", when lowercase letters contain the same informational content. --NE2 15:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it's using small-caps, which are not the same as capital letters. And if all we care about is informational content, then why do we even have a style guide? How does the existence of a style guide contribute to Wikipedia's informational content? —RuakhTALK 15:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Huh? The style guide coordinates style so the information is easier to access. --NE2 17:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
So if, for example, an article had some Headings That Were Title-Cased and some Headings that had only the first letter capitalized, that would make the information more difficult to access? —RuakhTALK 17:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Can someone else give an opinion? Is it okay to throw style out because we want our articles to look like road signs? --NE2 08:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not someone else (obviously), but I'll give my opinion that no, we shouldn't throw style out. I just don't think {{scaps}} does so. —RuakhTALK 13:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. It seems the template’s entire purpose is to promote a style for directions in road-related tables. A noble goal. I don’t like the implementation of it, though. The template encodes a specific choice of style in its name. I’d prefer that the template be named, say, {{direction}} instead, so that if the preferred style for directions on road tables changes, the template can be editted without making its name meaningless.
However, I don’t think this is a good choice of style. Wikipedia articles are not road signs and are not subject to laws and guidelines governing the appearance of road signs. Just write the directions using normal case. Capitalized or not, I don’t really care. --Rob Kennedy 02:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Undue(?) absence of capitals

What to do with things that are clearly proper names, but don't have any capitals at all?

For instance, suppose the Derailing Ukuleles produce a CD with the following track list:

  1. country roads
  2. my bonnie hills
  3. hell is other people
  4. anonymous recursion

Now, I would change these to "Country Roads", "My Bonnie Hills", and so on, but not every editor does that. What is our policy on this? Considering these are proper names, I think they should have at least one capital at the beginning. About the others I'm not so certain, mainly because artists who do use caps vary in this respect.

Should we use the same rule we apply to all caps, i.e. "WAR BEGINS TODAY" → "War Begins Today", therefore "war begins today" should also become "War Begins Today"? Shinobu 04:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Proper nouns are ordinarily capitalized, but if the owner of a name chooses not to capitalize it, then that's what goes. The complication is, sometimes the track list that comes with the CD uses lowercased names as a cool (*cough*) stylistic thing, but then press releases and so on do use titlecased names. When this is the case, I think the titlecased names are the correct ones for Wikipedia's purposes. (Sometimes the lowercased form really is the correct form, though, as with e.g. "birthright israel", "eBay", and so on; in these cases, lowercased forms even occur on legal documents, articles of incorporation, and so on.) —RuakhTALK 20:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, but see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks)#Trademarks which begin with a lowercase letter. —RuakhTALK 15:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization of "to be"

I was wondering what the conventions on forms of the verb "to be" in titles (in reference to albums, songs and the like) were. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to locate a page where Wikipedia's policy on this issue is outlined. I personally prefer to omit capitalization in such cases (Johnny Cash is Coming to Town instead of Johnny Cash Is Coming to Town; the former has been redirected to the latter, as is the case with Happiness is You), but if Wikipedia has a different opinion on the matter, I'll abide by the rules. Thanks in advance. Cromag 09:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The forms of be are always capitalized in titles, as they're verbs. (I'm exaggerating slightly with "always", as you can always find an exception, but I've never come across a newspaper that doesn't capitalize forms of be when using titlecase.) Indeed, the only words that aren't capitalized in titles are articles (a, an, and the), the particle to in full infinitives, conjunctions (especially and and to a lesser extent or; details vary by house style), and prepositions (especially short ones; again, details vary). —RuakhTALK 16:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, I stand corrected. I'll start implementing this rule in my previous and future contributions. Cromag 13:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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