Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (China-related articles)

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[edit] Remove Wade-Giles

Wade-Giles is a useless thing. Nobody uses it. To improve the quality of Wikipedia, Wade-Giles should be removed from China related articles. Edipedia 20:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

English texts first published before the 1980s use W-G, so it remains prevalent in the field of history. Topics of historical importance should use W-G. W-G isnt uniformly applied in WP, it is just in certain articles.--Jiang 05:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tones

[edit] Should tones be added consistently to all pinyin throughout Wiki?

There's quite a bit of pinyin without tone marks on it on Wiki pages. Chinese is a tonal language, and pinyin without tones is like English minus a few letters! :( Since adding the tone marks does not detract from legibility, I strongly recommend adding them. I found that this will break internal links if not done carefully however. For example, if there's a link to Huangdi and I edit it to Huángdì, the link breaks. But if I edit it to (begin double brackets) Huangdi|Huángdì (end double brackets), it still works. Dragonbones 08:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Tone marks in names necessary? (copied over by Dragonbones from Chinese language talk page) I noticed that tone marks were added to names of cities, provinces, dynasties, etc. in the History section, and was wondering if they are necessary, given that many of them have essentially entered the English vocabulary? I thought that one of the style manuals might have mentioned something about this, but I can't seem to find it in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) or Wikipedia:Manual of Style (China-related articles). --ian (talk) 16:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I searched the style manual before adding them. I added them on the principle that pinyin needs tones to accurately represent the tonal language, and the tone marks, although perhaps not necessary for recognition by English speakers of words like Beijing, do not IMO detract from the readability of the word either. If there is disagreement on whether it is desirable however, I would suggest establishing a consensus on tonemark style and inserting relevant guidelines to that effect in the above cited locations. If enough other editors object (and I do not yet know that to be the case) then I would recommend a standard parallel to that used for the insertion of Chinese characters:
Certainly at least those words which do not have a Wiki page (say, on a particular imperial consort named Geng) should have both the tone marks and the Chinese character added, since otherwise it is hard to figure out what the pinyin refers to.
And for those which do have their own page, then a further choice point would be involved: IF they are also common in the English vocabulary (say, Beijing) we would not add the tone marks on other pages unless there was a risk of confusion between two identically spelled words (like the two Jin dynasties); we would add the tones at the beginning of their own (e.g., Beijing's) page. If they do have their own page but are NOT common in the English vocabulary (say, Emperor An, or Xu Shen), then I would advocate a standard slightly more liberal than that on insertion of Chinese characters -- namely, I would argue that we should add pinyin throughout, because it is less intrusive than characters. Dragonbones 01:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that tone marks should be added where needed to disambiguate, but I'm a bit less sure about adding them to text in the main article (i.e. not in a parenthetical that lists both the characters and the Pinyin). My feeling is that the main text should probably follow the convention of written English, which means the tone marks are used only if one would normally use them outside of the encyclopedic context (but that might just be my own stylistic preference). From what I can tell (of the few books that I've seen), publications that use Pinyin romanization usually don't include the tone marks except for pedagogical reasons; I guess that's why the Chinese provinces of Shanxi and Shaanxi are spelled differently in English for disambiguation.
Thats the only example I know which is avoiding tones and mixing-up at the same time. There are many other Chinese words, which would be written the same without tones, and there is no such rule in English. 亮HH 07:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
A parallel in another language would be Japanese: names like Tokyo and Yoko Ono are routinely written without any diacritics in running text, but in strict Hepburn romanization the macrons are always used (Tōkyō, Yōko Ono). (Hope this wasn't too rambly :-) --ian (talk) 18:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree (with Dragonbones). People who don't understand them will sail right on by, but they may prevent confusion for users whose vocabulary is large enough to interpret a romanized syllable in more than one way that happens to be appropriate to the context. P0M 01:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Unlike some of the old Wade-Giles marks, pīnyīn tōne mǎrks ǎre nō hīndrǎnce to réadǎbílǐty. Readers who don't understand them, will sail right through the text, barely noticing them. For other readers, the tones provide critical information. The common usage of pinyin without tones in English texts is a matter of convenience to the printer, not a stylistic decision made with readers' needs in mind. Using the tones only on first occurrence in an article will minimally inform the careful reader, but many of the readers of these articles will be learners of the Chinese language. They will appreciate the reminder offered by consistent usage of the tone at every occurrence of the word, at no expense to anyone except the volunteer who took the time to insert it. After all, these people are reading an encyclopedia, not Time Magazine. Bertport 14:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ian on the history articles. The usage of non-tonemarked name for historical dynasties is pretty much standard in English writing on Chinese history, which is why the current rush to tonemark them seems pretty peculiar to me. I can see specific historical characters like Zhū Yuánzhāng getting tonified, but Hàn or Sòng dynasty seems a bit too much.
Kelvinc 19:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I looked for the Chinese gaymovement Tongzhi but I got some emperor. So there I created a fork page leading to Tongzhi (emperor) and Tongzhi (gay movement) with explanation with tones and characters but some idiot deleted it. :( I think such addings in brackets are better since noone, even me and my sinology fellows, has a convienient way to enter Pinyin. You can't expect every layman to enter pinyin. They can read it in the discription. I'd be in favor of such thing but so far we neither got a convienient way to enter pinyin, nor do many people seem to be able to. 亮HH 07:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
A couple of comments on the issue of broken links:
1: mediawiki has redirects you know
2: if your going to be using the form with full tones in body text shouldn't you be using it in article titles too? Plugwash 09:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
As for entering pinyin well we have the charinsert box but i guess that doesn't count as hugely conviniant. OTOH its generally likely to be only a few words/article anyway. Plugwash 09:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced by the argument that pinyin with tone marks doesn't harm readability. I don't know the technical details, but there are certainly computers and/or encodings and/or fonts around which translate tone-marked text into garbage. Tone marks for the first mention as reference are fine, but we shouldn't be adding them to every occurrence of pinyin throughout the text. HenryFlower 09:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tone marks in article titles

I don't have very strong feelings about using tone marks in article text, but I've started this discussion at Naming Conventions about whether or not we should have pinyin-with-tone-marks in the actual titles of articles. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding Chinese Characters

IMHO, adding Chinese characters more often would be a benefit. This is particularly helpful for web cut & paste searches, and it helps English/Chinese readers. For example: Shu Jing (書經), is to me, is much better than Shu Jing. Personnally, especially due to the difficulty of the language and the many ranges of experience for those reading it, I feel it is extremely helpful. I agree this is an English wiki, but for Chinese articles, assuming or insisting English/Chinese readers should only see English is an unnecessary demand. The addition does not harm English only readers.

Insisting on a consistant pattern of English first, characters in parenthesis next, seems fair.

Good feedback. I thought I was alone in thinking that way. There is a huge advantage with Chinese characters, and that is that it reduces ambiguity. I'd like to see Chinese characters in every article where a Chinese name is mentioned, so one doesn't confuse Shanxi (陕西) with Shanxi (山西). Wikipedia writes 陕西 as "Shaanxi", but that is not the correct pinyin, even though it is the standard Western way of making a difference between the provinces. Mlewan 18:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of "Municipality" for 直辖市

See Talk:Municipality of China. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 20:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A couple more heads-ups

See Template_talk:CEG for discussions on how to list the names of the 56 ethnic groups that officially live in China. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Tibetan) and Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (Tibetan) for newly proposed Tibetan naming conventions, mostly related to romanisation. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need Chinese language help

Hi, we need Chinese language help at Chinese wine. There's a wine which isn't yet discussed that is sold as "hung-lu" wine. It is reddish in color, with a sharp smell and is sold by the Oriental Mascot brand (which also makes mijiu and formerly also made Shaoxing jiu). The largest photo of this wine is here, but the characters aren't easily readable. I think "hung-lu" isn't Hanyu pinyin. Can someone provide information about this wine, the characters, etc.? Thank you! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0000DJZ0F/ref=dp_primary-product-display_0/102-4042702-9901704?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=3370831&s=gourmet-food Badagnani 22:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The picture is too small to read the text, but I guess by the sound of the name to be 紅露酒 (lit. red dew) which yeilds a few thousand pages on google. Kowloonese 01:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
FYI, that would be hung-lu in Wade-Giles romanisation, and hónglù in Hanyu pinyin. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 02:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Easiest way to add Pinyin to articles?

Could anyone please tell me what is the best way to go about adding pinyin to english articles on chinese subjects? For right now, i can just copy and paste the unicode characters where needed, but that takes alot of time. Keith

It depends on which keyboard you use. With a French keyboard there is no problem to create à for example. However, I don't know of any clean method to do all vowels on Windows. You could use "insert symbol" in for example Word and then paste it here, I guess. With MacOS X you can activate the "US Extended" keyboard and then do
alt+a and then <vowel> to create the first tones: ā, ī, ē, ō, ū
alt+e and then <vowel> to create the second tones: á, é, í, ó, ú
alt+v and then <vowel> to create the third tone: ǎ, ǐ, ě, ǒ, ǔ
alt+` and then <vowel> to create the fourth tone: à, ì, è, ò, ù
u and then shift+alt+u and then shift+alt+<a, e, v or `> gives ǖ, ǘ, ǚ or ǜ.
(Copied from text I had already written on Chinesepod.)
Mlewan 06:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with Tonemarks

OK, I know this is not the current pattern, but using numeric tone indicators is, I propose, a better way to handle pinyin (i.e., Shan1hai3 Jing4). Because:

  • Using the special characters puts a burden on wiki writer to use special key constructs or "special" cut & pastes. The article above implies the writer has to make hardware or software changes, in addition to whatever changes they have made for their current English/Chinese strategy. There has got to be a better way. Lookups, special software, or special charts should not be necessary.
  • Special characters interfere with cut & paste to external text schemes. Even that handy chart below can not solve this. It assumes the user always has a fixed way to transfer info; and this is unrealistic. For example, the pinyin characters work in cut and paste for MS Arial Unicode, but not in older fonts.
Of course, any system we try will have drawbacks; I believe this would be the simplest strategy - for the writer - going forward.
mamgeorge 13:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Good point; a lot of casual readers whose computers are not configured properly are going to see empty boxes, BUT, usually just on the third tone mark. If you're having trouble we'll help you get your computer set up properly to see it. I don't think Wikipedia will want to go back to all numeric tone marks. Badagnani 19:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Using numbers is non-standard. We do it the standard way here. If you personally are having trouble inputting the correct tone marks, no problemo. Just enter the numbers and we shall clean up after you. — Gulliver ✉ 13:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it quite difficult to find entries where people have used tone marks? They risk staying in the system for long. I would suggest people who have problems typing proper pinyin to write without any tones at all, and that better equipped people who stumble upon the entries then correct them. Adding numbers like in Shang4hai3 will make the entries look like typos to people who aren't familiar with the system. Mlewan 05:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consolidating templates

It occurs to me that the array of different {{zh-etc., etc.}} templates can now be combined into one master template using the #if functionality. This is what has been done on Template:Cite book, where there are many, many possible values but only "title" is mandatory. For a much simpler example, I have implemented this already for the "t" and "o" values on Template:bo-ctw. As far as I know, the only factor which prevents us from merging all of the zh- templates into one would be controlling whether traditional or simplified characters appear first; there probably is a way to do this, but I don't know what it is. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 05:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Update: see Template:Bo, which is now useable for almost all combinations of Tibetan names. We could use a similar format for the Chinese templates. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 19:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template typo?

Shouldn't all these template examples with zhōng guó be Zhōngguó? Keahapana 19:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Chinese name

I just went about removing a bunch of notices inserted by User:Ling.Nut. There is no consensus to use the template. The template is ugly, redundant, and unnecessary. Please do not insult the intellegence of the reader.--Jiang 19:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Jiang, I strongly agree that a consensus decision on this question would be very beneficial. Having said that, I am aware that the issue is far, far less cut-and-dried than your somewhat curt and peremptory remarks might suggest. I respectfully request that you reconsider your accusation that I am "insulting the intelligence of the reader." I am not certain that you are aware of the situation as it stands in the States. As I have seen firsthand, Wikipedia is becoming the resource of first resort for American high school students, undergrads etc. in their report-writing research. Moreover, as I again have seen firsthand, it is not necessarily common knowledge among Americans that Chinese names are ordered family-name first. I do not know whether you have yet encountered this particular cultural blindspot, but I have een it among both teenagers and adults. I believe it is important to give prominence to this cultural difference, in the interest of greater intercultural understanding. [It may be a small thing -- of course it won't bring peace, love and understanding to the world -- but every little bit counts.] To Chinese, the family-name/given name order is as obvious as anything could possibly be. That is not the case for many (but not all, of course) Americans. There are no 'unambiguous cases.'
I can definitely see how some people would perceive the Chinese name template as a distraction or an eyesore when it's placed atop a page. It does detract somewhat from the aesthetic presentation of the article. On the other hand, I still have concerns. Taking the example of Jiang Jieshi, I do see that 'Jiang' is described as a family name in the infobox along the right margin. However, I personally doubt that detail would register in the minds of many people (casual readers, high school students etc), because it is not given any prominence on the page. So the question comes down to this: which is more important, form or function? It's a judgment call. I would like to see a consensus decision regarding this issue.
You did state that some Japanese pages have a solution to this issue which you personally find satisfactory.. Thank you for the information. I will take a look at those.
[Note that this conversation was initiated by the (thoughtfully and respectfully articulated) concerns of User:Neo-Jay. His remarks and mine can be found on our respective discussion pages.
Thanks, Ling.Nut 00:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a question on where we want to draw the line on what is common knowledge and what is not, and how prominent to make a notice, if any, for these articles. There are many things assumed in articles that are not explicitly expressed. Articles written in American English do not make it explicit that the spelling is American. People have and do try to change the spellings in articles, but that doesn't mean we should make a prominent notice declaring "This article is in American English."

No other encyclopedia or media source makes on explicit note on Chinese surnames. Some enycopedias have capitalized the surnames. News articles don't usually make a note: though notes on people with no surname (e.g. Abdullah, Megawati Sukarnoputri) are made.

Examples of less prominent renderings of notes on names are at Junichiro Koizumi and Vincente Fox. --Jiang 02:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jiang, thanks for the explanation & examples. I don't buy into either the first or second argument you present. Perhaps more importantly, however, I do see virtue in the examples you gave, so I'll talk about those first. In most respects I like the nihongo template used in Junichiro Koizumi, as well as the use of a simple <ref> tag for Vincente Fox. Neither option is quite as transparent and salient as the Chinese name template, but they clearly represent a stylistic compromise.
I disagree with the choice of a superscript question mark ? as the linked character in the nihongo template. I think that it's too hard to see, since I didn't even notice it at all until the second time I looked at the template. It looks too much like a cryptic diacritic over the last letter of the name. A square-bracketed superscript [1] would be better; that would follow the familiar convention used by the <ref> tag. But if people can accept either one of those options as an aesthetic compromise, then I certainly can too.
My problem with your argument about "... where we want to draw the line on what is common knowledge" is the word we. In this case, we are the authors/editors of the articles. We tend to be people who are relatively more acquainted with the topic being discussed, which also means that we are probably extremely familiar with the Chinese convention for presenting peoples' names. It might be easy to fall into the trap of assuming that others share our familiarity. [Note that the repeated emphasis on we is straightforward emphasis; not intended to be antagonistic.]
My problem with "no other encyclopedia..." is that I feel no urge to color within the lines that other reference sources have set in front of us. If we play follow the leader with other encyclopedias too often, then we will simply become their clones. Redundancy follows close behind. I am not sure that redundancy is in the best interests of Wikipedia readers. That's especially true in cases that sacrifice ease of access to information in the name of aesthetic presentability.
But I like the idea of compromise. I feel there is definitely a need to address the issue of Chinese surnames, and to do so in a standardized way. Ignoring this need is a disservice to other Wikipedia readers. 'Nuff said. Ling.Nut 21:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] (moved from main page)

Very well, let's discuss, there are two China's or countries currently in existence due to the division of China by the Chinese Civil War. There is no justification to use Hanyu Pinyin on ALL Chinese related articles. Hanyu Pinyin should only be used as it pertains to any People's Republic of China (PRC) related article and Tongyong Pinyin]] should be used as it pertains to any Republic of China (Taiwan) article. If both China's are involved in a particular article, then both Hanyu Pinyin and Tongyong Pinyin should be used in parenthesis side by side for equality and neutrality in accordance with Wikipedia policy. To establish the pro-PRC Hanyu Pinyin as the so-called "standard" policy of all Chinese articles is to push to the general audience a pro-PRC point of view that is absolutely unacceptable and appalling given the criminal acts of murder committed by the PRC government on innocent students at Tiannemen Square. Sincerely, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Republic of China (Taiwan) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.252.106.44 (talk • contribs) 22:53, 10 September 2006.

Hanyu Pinyin is the standard used in English-speaking academia around the world when rendering Chinese characters in latin script. Wikipedia should only reflect this academic consensus. It is common usage, not the standards set by governments, that should decide what gets put into Wikipedia. Tongyong Pinyin is used nowhere except on ROC government website and on street signs of pan-green controlled localities in Taiwan. We add TY in addition to HY in certain articles for reference, and name certain articles of geographical places that are now rendered in TY, but I see no justification to delete HY from articles.
It's pointless to make political arguments here.--Jiang 23:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hanyu Pinyin is only the so-called "standard" because the majority of all countries and businesses have been either enticed or pressured into using their system. But from a point of neutrality, Tongyong Pinyin as used on the Republic of China Republic of China (Taiwan) should have equal footing with Hanyu Pinyin as used on the People's Republic of China People's Republic of China. And if we agree not to delete Hanyu Pinyin from articles, then we must agree to add Tongyong Pinyin to the article alongside Hanyu Pinyin.

Sincerely, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Republic of China (Taiwan) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.252.106.44 (talk • contribs) .

That's simply your theory on the prevalance of Hanyu Pinyin. That is not reason not to use it. This encyclopedia should provide information that is both useful and informative. Why censor material just because you don't like who created it? Are you going to delete articles on a certain mathematical theory because the mathematician who created it was an adulterer? Besides, HY is used in Taiwan, in schools geared towards foreigners and in street signs for localities such as Taipei.
If half (or even a third) the world used TY instead of HY, then we should include both. But this is hardly case: no one uses TY pinyin except the ROC central government and local governments controlled by pan-green. Political origins are not relevant. Utility and commonality are.--Jiang 23:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wiktionary links?

Is it encouraged to link to the characters' entries in Wiktionary (as in the lead here), optional, or frowned upon? To my eyes the blue Wikilinks are slightly less legible on a white background, and very few articles seem to do it. elvenscout742 18:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template

The Korean template (such as can be seen at Sujeonggwa) is much nicer visually than the new one: Template:Chinese; could we please use one that's comparable to the Korean one (but with a different color) -- an example of this template can be seen at Zhajiang mian, and the original template at Template:Chinesename? It can be adapted according to what other things people want in it. Thanks for your consideration. Badagnani 09:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Chinese

User:Alanmak has been converting the in-line Chinese/Chinese Romanization to a right floating box using Template:Chinese. Template:Chinese is currently not sanctioned by this MoS, which prescribes a slightly different formatting. I think the box is useful when there are many romanizations, but obtrusive when there are not. The box should be used sparingly as it pushes images further down the page and clogs up the horizontal whitespace in pages where another infobox already exists. Basically, it's hideous.

I propose the following:
Template:Chinese should only be used if

  1. There are more than four items to be listed;
  2. An image does not already occupy the upper right hand corner; and
  3. Another box does not already occupy the upper right hand corner.

If (1) is true and (2) or (3) are not, then the image or box should into a box containing the characters/romanization.

Comments? --Jiang 09:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

See the box at Shiing-Shen Chern (Template:Chinesename). I think it fits visually with the article better than the bright blue one. All it needs is Postal System Pinyin (if that's necessary) and space for a photo caption, which I'm not sure how to do. Badagnani 09:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for bring up the box in the article Zhajiang mian. Actually, when I first started editing Template:Chinese, I deliberately decreased the font size, because some people liked to complain that info boxes were bulky. I would prefer changing Template:Chinese into the color scheme of the new box that you made, and making it more visually attractive. :-) I would also suggest adding a space in Template:Chinese for putting photograph(s). - Alan 09:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


I have no objections to the mass implementation of Template:Chinesename to biographies. It works much better than Template:Chinese in incorporating images. The portrait of the person should always occupy the corner space in a biography. And the hue of blue/gray is much better-looking.--Jiang 09:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The manual of style encourages the display of Chinese names using info box (See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (China-related articles)#Box format).
  • I don't think that a box should not be used when there is already an image on the right hand side of the article. I don't see any problem for the name in the orginal language to come before an image. Even if you use in-line style, the name in the original language would also come before an image.
  • If most people like an image to come first, I would suggest modifying the template, and put an image between the blue area and the white area.
  • If there is already another info box in an article, the Chinese name(s) and the romanization(s) can be absorbed into the box that is already in the article. If it is not possible to do so, I would suggest keeping Template:Chinese in the article.
  • It seems that your motive is to minimize the use of a template made by somebody who had an edit-war with you before. But this is not how things work here in Wikipedia. - Alan 09:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the last point: absolutely not. If the box were visually attractive, fitting in well with the pages, and in line visually with Template:Koreanname, I would have no problem with it at all. Check Zhajiang mian and see this box. Badagnani 09:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
1 - the current MoS is not Template:Chinese. It is fine to have the image incorporated into the box. Having the image pushed down by the box is not okay and is nowhere part of the original design. The MoS box was also intended to be applied on a case-by-case basis, not wholesale to every article using Chinese characters.
2- It is consistent througout wikipedia to have the image placed to the upper right hand corner and to have non-English languages provided in-line in parenthesis. What is being implemented without proposal here is very different. It is not about the language appearing first; it is about the box itself pushing useful content down the page or cluttering the page.
3- I agree to such a modification. I also think the color should be lightened to be consistent with the box in the MoS.
4- I also agree to incoporating the language into existing boxes. But if it is not possible, then having a blue box floating around is plain hideous. I don't see the benefit if the romanizations dont clutter the lead section.
5- See Wikipedia:Assume good faith and Wikipedia:No personal attacks.
Please elaborate on the benefits of Template:Chinese over in-line templates. --Jiang 09:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't like Template:Chinese. Template:zh (inline format) is much more elegant in appearance and in usage. I can see the value of Template:Chinese if there are many items, but for the standard Traditional-Simplified-Pinyin format, template:zh is better. --Sumple (Talk) 09:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
What's a page that uses Template:zh? Badagnani 09:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
He's referring to these. The Chinese is presented in parenthesis, inline. This is cleaner and takes up less space when dont have to deal with a lot of items. --Jiang 09:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It looks like Template:Chinese and Template:Chinesename serve the same purpose and should be merged. I prefer the color scheme of Template:Chinesename. I also don't think it is necessary to list the Chinese variant from which the romanizations were derived - it is non-vital information that unnecessarily clogs up the box. People who find the romanizations useful should already know; those wishing to find out need only click on the links once. --Jiang 09:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I am now trying to figure out how to make the trad. and simplified hanzi go into tiny grids like at the Koreanname template (see Nokdumuk for an example; it's very nice). Also, I'm trying to allow for a photo caption, as in the taxoboxes. Badagnani 09:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, I figured out the grids. See Zhajiang mian. All it needs is Postal System Pinyin (if that's necessary) and a way to get a photo caption, as in the taxoboxes. Badagnani 10:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've now also figured out making a small photo caption. See the finished box at Baijiu. Badagnani 10:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Given the current proliferation of right-hand-side infoboxes, I think that if we are to adopt a standardised right-hand-side Chinese name box, it should be able to fit harmoniously atop (or even within the additional infobox's title parameter). I'm not a code monkey so I'm not too confident of making such a template myself, but if you feel it can be plausibly considered, feel free to expand upon my idea. -- Миборовский 00:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand these specifications; would you look at the new template at Baijiu (which is imitative of the one that's been used in Korean articles for some time, though with different colored bars and say what about it you would like to see changed? Badagnani 01:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I mean that we shouldn't add even more boxes to the ubiquitous infoboxes found on all sorts of articles. Actually, forget what I said in my previous post. What would REALLY be cool is a mouse-over display box with wg/py, simp/trad that shows up when one hovers the mouse over a term. That way we have more stuff, with less clutter. -- Миборовский 01:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't mind your box, but I still prefer the in-line parenthesis style in presenting Chinese characters/romanizations when there are not many items to list because boxes create clutter. I see youve applied the box to some articles that previously did not have one: it's not necessary to list the Chinese twice (in the first line and in the box) - only one or the other is necessary--Jiang 02:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for comments. Which one has that? Regarding "mouse-over," Wikipedia usually avoids that because not all computers can deal with that kind of css or java code, and it's hard to print that sort of thing. The code is kept as simple as possible. Badagnani 03:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need new template

Can someone make a new template "needhanzi," for articles about Chinese people or things that have no Chinese characters, such as Cheng Yu? Badagnani 09:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. See Template:Needhanzi. Just use {{needhanzi}} if you find an article on a Chinese subject that needs Chinese characters. Badagnani 09:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese Taipei

In articles, the name "Chinese Taipei" should only be used when the organisation itself refers to Taiwan as such. Depending on the context, it may be preferrable to add a footnote explaining that Chinese Taipei is more commonly known as Taiwan but not add (Taiwan) as parenthentical.

I want to add this to the manual of style, it has been discussed in Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) #Chinese Taipei and Taiwan. Can it be? --Aleenf1 05:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If is not in common usage, you still need the disambiguation. The name was a compromise and does not represent an actual place. So add the footnote at least. Wenzi 09:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please vote (Chinese surname categories up for deletion)

A new editor has just added a number of categories for Chinese surnames, which I believe to be very useful. As is usually the case at the Categories for Deletion area, the people who frequent that place generally try to delete every new category, regardless of whether they understand its use. In this case, they seem not to understand the utility of being able to have a category for everyone with the name "Liu," for example. Please voice your opinion here. Badagnani 03:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hokkien in zh-* templates

In the Jay Chou article, User:125.142.209.67 added the Hokkien version of Jay Chou's name to the list at the beginning of the article. There is no template that includes a Min Nan parameter though, so it's currently just stuffed inside the zh-tsp template's pinyin parameter. Should versions of the zh-* templates with a Min Nan parameter be created? — heycam 22:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The Hokkien argument could be added to existing templates without disruption. However, a Hokkien name should be added only when there is some particular reason to do so.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 23:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When should "box-style" format be used?

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (China-related articles) only mentions the use of box-style format for prominent biographies. It would be better if there was more clarity as to when the box-style format can be used. For example, Hong Kong-style milk tea has two different names 港式奶茶 and 大排檔奶茶 each with Mandarin and Cantonese romanization. Should inline text format prevail? Or would this situation allow box-style format? Furthermore, for consistency throughout the Chinese articles, there should be a guideline for box-format usage. For example: Biographies, Geography, Organizations, etc.

The Hong Kong article has the strangest solution, instead of listing the pronunciation of 香港 and 中華人民共和國香港特別行政區, it has a page of it's own at Pronunciation of Hong Kong. I don't think it's appropriate to have an article just for the pronunciation of Hong Kong. — Nrtm81 06:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The box format works well for many non-biography articles, especially when a photo is integrated. Kaoliang and huangjiu are examples, though all photos have been removed due to the mass deletions of the past weeks. Jiaozi features a photo. I wouldn't specify a hard and fast rule; let editors use a box if they prefer. Tofu has a particularly large box because it encompasses many languages and the box creates a very nice solution. Badagnani 07:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I proposed above the following conditions:
  1. There are more than four items to be listed;
  2. An image does not already occupy the upper right hand corner; and
  3. Another box does not already occupy the upper right hand corner.
If (1) is true and (2) or (3) are not, then the image or box should into a box containing the characters/romanization.
I prefer the in-line style as long as they are not many items to list. Sometimes, if there are multiple terms, the terms are within the scope of the article text. In any case, the box that should be used is Template:Chinesename and not Template:Chinese. The dark blue is hideous.--Jiang 11:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Jiaozi has four items (simplified, traditional, pinyin, and Wade-Giles) plus a photo. I suppose Cantonese wasn't added since some editors felt it wasn't relevant as they don't prepare these as part of Cantonese cuisine. I'm not sure if you count a photo as one of the four items in your first point. I do feel that if a photo is used, a box is permissable even if only the pinyin and Wade-Giles are given (though Cantonese and probably Min Nan, if relevant, could easily be located for many items as well). Badagnani 11:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't intend the photo to count. I don't see how Wade-Giles in relevant in the article; it can be removed as this is not a history-related topic. The box does not allow for the Japanese variant of the term, gyōza, to be properly explained. I'd rather have everything in the same place; if we're going to have some text explaning that gyōza and jiaozi refer to the same thing, then we might as well keep it all in-line.--Jiang 18:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
User:Yao Ziyuan has created a new box template that does incorporate most of the Asian languages, so that could be done. (I forgot what it's called, though.) Badagnani 22:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh, sorry, here it is: Template:CJKV -- it's inline rather than a box. I see that gyoza is well described below, in its own section of the jiaozi article, which I think it preferable. Probably even better would be to have a separate article for gyoza, solving the problem entirely. Badagnani 23:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
You can see some uses of the template in article Lichun and etc. Yao Ziyuan 23:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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